Sandy Hook Tragedy

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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:05 am

count2infinity wrote:As far as the aspergers stuff is concerned:

I've taught a kid with almost every single mental disability possible: MR, AS, A.D.D., dyslexia, autism, etc. None of them make a person violent. If anything it's the opposite. I would take a classroom full of those kids over the kid that doesn't have any mental issues, but is just an a**hole.

I disagree. Those things can absolutely make them violent. When something triggers them each responds in a different way, one of those ways can be violence. I've seen it taken out on their peers and teachers.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:11 am

What if nobody or nothing is to blame for Adam Lanza other than Adam Lanza?
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby count2infinity on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:13 am

Pavel Bure wrote:
count2infinity wrote:As far as the aspergers stuff is concerned:

I've taught a kid with almost every single mental disability possible: MR, AS, A.D.D., dyslexia, autism, etc. None of them make a person violent. If anything it's the opposite. I would take a classroom full of those kids over the kid that doesn't have any mental issues, but is just an a**hole.

I disagree. Those things can absolutely make them violent. When something triggers them each responds in a different way, one of those ways can be violence. I've seen it taken out on their peers and teachers.


Most of those are students that become violent very quickly due to those issues, a general teacher wouldn't see. They're normally placed in other settings or with a TSS that helps keep them under control. Your run of the mill AD, MR, dyslexic student doesn't necessarily have violent tendencies, and if they do, they're receiving help in some way.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby CBear3 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:17 am

Here's the thing, and maybe it's just the cynic in me, but how many times do people say or do things like these "warning signs" and nothing happens at all. There was really no intent to follow through at any time, but you just look a few threads down, "What current ad campaign makes you contemplate homicide?" Should we have reported slappy because he might go on a rampage the next time a GIECO commercial comes on?

There are over 20k hits on the word "kill" on this website alone. The only thing that would have prevented these murders at that point would be to lock somebody up for a vague, potentially violent comment. You want to talk about prison overcrowding. There are very few people in a person's life that truly knows what goes on inside their friend's head. The circle of people that could stop these murderers before they start is very small, perhaps 1 or 2 people at best.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:19 am

count2infinity wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:
count2infinity wrote:As far as the aspergers stuff is concerned:

I've taught a kid with almost every single mental disability possible: MR, AS, A.D.D., dyslexia, autism, etc. None of them make a person violent. If anything it's the opposite. I would take a classroom full of those kids over the kid that doesn't have any mental issues, but is just an a**hole.

I disagree. Those things can absolutely make them violent. When something triggers them each responds in a different way, one of those ways can be violence. I've seen it taken out on their peers and teachers.


Most of those are students that become violent very quickly due to those issues, a general teacher wouldn't see. They're normally placed in other settings or with a TSS that helps keep them under control. Your run of the mill AD, MR, dyslexic student doesn't necessarily have violent tendencies, and if they do, they're receiving help in some way.

I realize that but for example. If a student is AD, MR, dyslexic, etc. but their parents refuse to see that and refuse to sign the proper paperwork those students are in the classroom full time. Teachers do recognize those students need help but their hands are tied because if they are simply put in a behavior specialist class or even given a multitude of help without the parent condoning it the school is wide open to lawsuits. Parents refusing to recognize or act on their child needing help is a huge problem in the world today. That just goes back to recognition and treatment of those types of things. (I couldn't think of better wording)
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby count2infinity on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:20 am

agreed.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby CBear3 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:20 am

Another thought, if his mental disability did lead to violent outbursts, it would seem odd that he was mainstreamed educationally and that there's been no evidence of a past history of violence.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:24 am

CBear3 wrote:Another thought, if his mental disability did lead to violent outbursts, it would seem odd that he was mainstreamed educationally and that there's been no evidence of a past history of violence.

I'm not talking about this incident specifically but in a more general term of how people with issues that need help are ignored and not helped. I haven't read much about this evil person (which mental disability I'm sorry doesn't excuse killing anyone) and I don't really care to.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby CBear3 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:28 am

I totally understand Pavel. My sister works as a psychologist in a Philly school district and I hear horror stories about kids whose parents don't seem to understand their child's situation and special needs. I agree completely with your view on the general issue the school system and the children can face.

I was just extrapolating that to the current situation.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby canaan on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:42 pm

CBear3 wrote:There are over 20k hits on the word "kill" on this website alone.

tyler kennedy related?
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:57 pm

CBear3 wrote:I totally understand Pavel. My sister works as a psychologist in a Philly school district and I hear horror stories about kids whose parents don't seem to understand their child's situation and special needs. I agree completely with your view on the general issue the school system and the children can face.

I was just extrapolating that to the current situation.


A few years ago, I broke off a seven year domestic partnership because my ex didn't/wouldn't deal with the issues her son was exhibiting. (he had been diagnosed with O.D.D. at 5 years old, and was a herion addict at 20)

While she knew what his issues were, and discussed them openly with me, she was horrible when it came to enabling him to continue his behavior. The Huffington Post article Shaf posted earlier was definately not the way my ex dealt with her sons issues.

I understand the parent-child bond, but that's where "Tough love" comes in IMHO.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:05 pm

That "I am the mother" article going viral is illuminating. It's effective because of what it doesn't do---make excuses. It suggests the universe of possible mass murderers is much larger than we expect, but, in their current manifestations, we may observe them as benign, or at most, "special." Mental illness is very real, and it's real beyond our rudimentary concepts of schizophrenia or autism. It can pervade an individual's personality, but it can also attack in extremely sporadic acute fits. Both situations can have dire effects.

I'm not passing judgment on the recent shooting--that would be premature, ignorant, and naive. But I have seen first-hand how mental illness can commandeer one's brain and force that person to act at the illness's command. This happens. The article implores us to view mental illness from a perspective different than our own. We habitually look at obesity and think "work out." Unemployment and think "work." Divorce and think "compromise." This tendency is our fallacious predisposition to view others' situations, take a single variable, and determine how we would handle that situation. Often, we're right. But often we're not. And I'm certain that proper judgment of these catastrophic events requires more than an internal reflection on "how would I handle this world? I certainly wouldn't kill anyone."

Obviously, it is never right to conclude "I would kill someone." But, we need to go beyond this first-level thinking. That's what a discussion on mental illness requires.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:42 pm

I posted the mother article on my facebook, these things don't appear out of no where, guys, they have signs, we just turn our backs from them, we don't want to know when someone has a serious mental illness. The lack of mental health understanding in this country is sickening/ the lack of funding is sickening. We need better education/ understanding of mental illness and not just when terrible things happen but everyday. Serious mental illness and stigma is literally killing people day by day.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:44 pm

doublem wrote:I posted the mother article on my facebook, these things don't appear out of no where, guys, they have signs, we just turn our backs from them, we don't want to know when someone has a serious mental illness. The lack of mental health understanding in this country is sickening/ the lack of funding is sickening. We need better education/ understanding of mental illness and not just when terrible things happen but everyday. Serious mental illness and stigma is literally killing people day by day.


education, funding and understanding are nothing compared to the power of a parent's denial.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:49 pm

shmenguin wrote:
doublem wrote:I posted the mother article on my facebook, these things don't appear out of no where, guys, they have signs, we just turn our backs from them, we don't want to know when someone has a serious mental illness. The lack of mental health understanding in this country is sickening/ the lack of funding is sickening. We need better education/ understanding of mental illness and not just when terrible things happen but everyday. Serious mental illness and stigma is literally killing people day by day.


education, funding and understanding are nothing compared to the power of a parent's denial.


but why so you think they are in denial, who do they turn to when they have a sick child, as we all say, no one brings a casserole over when you have a mentally ill loved one, they all leave you.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby Tim Thomasen on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:51 pm

shmenguin wrote:
doublem wrote:I posted the mother article on my facebook, these things don't appear out of no where, guys, they have signs, we just turn our backs from them, we don't want to know when someone has a serious mental illness. The lack of mental health understanding in this country is sickening/ the lack of funding is sickening. We need better education/ understanding of mental illness and not just when terrible things happen but everyday. Serious mental illness and stigma is literally killing people day by day.


education, funding and understanding are nothing compared to the power of a parent's denial.


That's very true. Like I said earlier I have aspergers and high functional autism and one of the main reasons why I got the help I got wasn't just because of the school but because my mom fought 24/7 with the school for me to make sure I got the help I got. She did that, she talked to people who deal with mental illness and she even went to Ohio to attend a seminar on autism so she can have a better understanding of it. Although I have a great support system, I don't think I would be the man I am if it wasn't for her and what she did for me. She's my hero.

This is compared to my cousin's son, who everyone knows is either autistic or has some sort of mental illness, but doesn't get the help he needs in school because she doesn't want to admit he has a problem and that he's just like the rest of his classmates. Problem is, he isn't.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:55 pm

doublem wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
doublem wrote:I posted the mother article on my facebook, these things don't appear out of no where, guys, they have signs, we just turn our backs from them, we don't want to know when someone has a serious mental illness. The lack of mental health understanding in this country is sickening/ the lack of funding is sickening. We need better education/ understanding of mental illness and not just when terrible things happen but everyday. Serious mental illness and stigma is literally killing people day by day.


education, funding and understanding are nothing compared to the power of a parent's denial.


but why so you think they are in denial, who do they turn to when they have a sick child, as we all say, no one brings a casserole over when you have a mentally ill loved one, they all leave you.


why are they in denial? i don't know...why do parents think it's the school's fault when their kid doesn't get good grades? why do people buy their daughters clothes that have the word "Princess" written all over them and then unleash that entitlement on the rest of us? why does every parent think their kid deserves more playing time on their soccer team - even if it's not even close to the truth?

people think their kids deserve the world but aren't prepared to deal with the speed bumps along the way. "going into therapy and taking anti-depressants? not for my little perfect angel."
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:01 pm

The two of you (Schmenguin and Tim Thomasen) do exactly what I counsel against: attach a simple (convenient) answer to an extremely complicated question:

Parents have the ability to treat mental illness if they get the proper help and treatment; thus, it's the parents' fault when a mentally ill individual does something wrong.

This, frankly, boils my blood a little bit. And you do this, in Tim's case, because you have observed two distinct mentally ill individuals, concluded one operates well and the other does not, noticed the parents were different, and then concluded that all you need is parental attention. This is the classic correlation-vs-causation fallacy multiplied by several orders of magnitude.

Mental illness encompasses an extremely broad set of conditions, each of which affect individuals in distinct ways. Evaluating mental illness from your experience with an austistic child (or children), is the equivalent of suggesting some cancer patients could be treated with anti-biotics or fluids because of your experience with cold patients. We recognize the breadth and spectrum of physical disease. Why can't we comprehend an equivalent spectrum for diseases of the mind?

I find it shockingly naive to suggest that parents can fix this problem; in fact, I find it extraordinarily insulting to the parents of mentally ill children. As I said in my post above doublem, we need to quit viewing mental illness through our own mentally competent perspective. We need to understand how the disease affects others. Like I said, how it can literally commandeer your brain. Can parents really right a ship piloted by a disease? Of course, not.
Last edited by TheHammer24 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby Tim Thomasen on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:01 pm

shmenguin wrote:
doublem wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
doublem wrote:I posted the mother article on my facebook, these things don't appear out of no where, guys, they have signs, we just turn our backs from them, we don't want to know when someone has a serious mental illness. The lack of mental health understanding in this country is sickening/ the lack of funding is sickening. We need better education/ understanding of mental illness and not just when terrible things happen but everyday. Serious mental illness and stigma is literally killing people day by day.


education, funding and understanding are nothing compared to the power of a parent's denial.


but why so you think they are in denial, who do they turn to when they have a sick child, as we all say, no one brings a casserole over when you have a mentally ill loved one, they all leave you.


why are they in denial? i don't know...why do parents think it's the school's fault when their kid doesn't get good grades? why do people buy their daughters clothes that have the word "Princess" written all over them and then unleash that entitlement on the rest of us? why does every parent think their kid deserves more playing time on their soccer team - even if it's not even close to the truth?

people think their kids deserve the world but aren't prepared to deal with the speed bumps along the way. "going into therapy and taking anti-depressants? not for my little perfect angel."


What you just said can't be said enough. It's like I said above, my cousin's kid has a mental illness but his mom doesn't want to get the help he needs to deal with this because she doesn't want to admit her son has a problem, because by doing so it's admitting that she kid is different and not like everyone and she doesn't want to admit that. This is compared to my mom who went leaps and bounds to assure I got the help and support I needed as I went through school.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby Fire0nice228 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:02 pm

There were plenty of mentally ill people a few decades ago and many more of them undiagnosed simply because noone knew what it was and yet it seems as though much more of this tragic stuff happens now than did back then when there was less diagnosis.

Its society to me. Lack of family, lack of values, media glorification of heinous crimes etc.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:02 pm

shmenguin wrote:
doublem wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
doublem wrote:I posted the mother article on my facebook, these things don't appear out of no where, guys, they have signs, we just turn our backs from them, we don't want to know when someone has a serious mental illness. The lack of mental health understanding in this country is sickening/ the lack of funding is sickening. We need better education/ understanding of mental illness and not just when terrible things happen but everyday. Serious mental illness and stigma is literally killing people day by day.


education, funding and understanding are nothing compared to the power of a parent's denial.


but why so you think they are in denial, who do they turn to when they have a sick child, as we all say, no one brings a casserole over when you have a mentally ill loved one, they all leave you.


why are they in denial? i don't know...why do parents think it's the school's fault when their kid doesn't get good grades? why do people buy their daughters clothes that have the word "Princess" written all over them and then unleash that entitlement on the rest of us? why does every parent think their kid deserves more playing time on their soccer team - even if it's not even close to the truth?

people think their kids deserve the world but aren't prepared to deal with the speed bumps along the way. "going into therapy and taking anti-depressants? not for my little perfect angel."


oh boy... when you have a kid with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder you can get back to me and see how easy it is to get someone into "therapy and taking anti-depressants' as you say. when he/she is sleeping out of his car 1000 miles away from you, get back to me.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:06 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:The two of you (Schmenguin and Tim Thomasen) do exactly what I counsel against: attach a simple (convenient) answer to an extremely complicated question:

Parents have the ability to treat mental illness if they get the proper help and treatment; thus, it's the parents' fault when a mentally ill individual does something wrong.

This, frankly, boils my blood a little bit. And you do this, in Tim's case, because you have observed two distinct mentally ill individuals, concluded one operates well and the other does not, noticed the parents were different, and then concluded that all you need is parental attention. This is the classic correlation-vs-causation fallacy multiplied by several orders of magnitude.

Mental illness encompasses an extremely broad set of conditions, each of which affect individuals in distinct ways. Evaluating mental illness from your experience with an austistic child (or children), is the equivalent of suggesting some cancer patients could be treated with anti-biotics or fluids because of your experience with cold patients. We recognize the breadth and spectrum of physical disease. Why can't we comprehend an equivalent spectrum for diseases of the mind?

I find it shockingly naive to suggest that parents can fix this problem; in fact, I find it extraordinarily insulting to the parents of mentally ill children. As I said in my post above doublem, we need to quit viewing mental illness through our own mentally competent perspective. We need to understand how the disease affects others. Like I said, how it can literally commandeer your brain. Can parents really right a ship piloted by a disease? Of course, not.



I always liked you. :thumb: :thumb:
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby Tim Thomasen on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:06 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:The two of you (Schmenguin and Tim Thomasen) do exactly what I counsel against: attach a simple (convenient) answer to an extremely complicated question:

Parents have the ability to treat mental illness if they get the proper help and treatment; thus, it's the parents' fault when a mentally ill individual does something wrong.

This, frankly, boils my blood a little bit. And you do this, in Tim's case, because you have observed two distinct mentally ill individuals, concluded one operates well and the other does not, noticed the parents were different, and then concluded that all you need is parental attention. This is the classic correlation-vs-causation fallacy multiplied by several orders of magnitude.

Mental illness encompasses an extremely broad set of conditions, each of which affect individuals in distinct ways. Evaluating mental illness from your experience with an austistic child (or children), is the equivalent of suggesting some cancer patients could be treated with anti-biotics or fluids because of your experience with cold patients. We recognize the breadth and spectrum of physical disease. Why can't we comprehend an equivalent spectrum for diseases of the mind?

I find it shockingly naive to suggest that parents can fix this problem; in fact, I find it extraordinarily insulting to the parents of mentally ill children. As I said in my post above doublem, we need to quit viewing mental illness through our own mentally competent perspective. We need to understand how the disease affects others. Like I said, how it can literally commandeer your brain. Can parents really right a ship piloted by a disease? Of course, not.


Wow.

First off I hate to break it to you but my mom did help me alot growing up. She went to the school and made them aware of what I had and made support I got the help I needed. She did that, met with mental illness experts and attended a seminar on dealing with a kid with a mental illness. I wouldn't be who I am without her.

Second I am also who I am because even though I have trouble in social situtations, i'm social enough where I can communicate to people and I have a core set of friends as my support system.

Third, I never said that how I was able to deal with aspergers and autism is the way for everyone to deal with it. What I was saying that it helped me alot because my mom got involved and that any kid with a mental illness should have their parents involved. That's all what I was saying.
Last edited by Tim Thomasen on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:06 pm

doublem wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
doublem wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
doublem wrote:I posted the mother article on my facebook, these things don't appear out of no where, guys, they have signs, we just turn our backs from them, we don't want to know when someone has a serious mental illness. The lack of mental health understanding in this country is sickening/ the lack of funding is sickening. We need better education/ understanding of mental illness and not just when terrible things happen but everyday. Serious mental illness and stigma is literally killing people day by day.


education, funding and understanding are nothing compared to the power of a parent's denial.


but why so you think they are in denial, who do they turn to when they have a sick child, as we all say, no one brings a casserole over when you have a mentally ill loved one, they all leave you.


why are they in denial? i don't know...why do parents think it's the school's fault when their kid doesn't get good grades? why do people buy their daughters clothes that have the word "Princess" written all over them and then unleash that entitlement on the rest of us? why does every parent think their kid deserves more playing time on their soccer team - even if it's not even close to the truth?

people think their kids deserve the world but aren't prepared to deal with the speed bumps along the way. "going into therapy and taking anti-depressants? not for my little perfect angel."


oh boy... when you have a kid with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder you can get back to me and see how easy it is to get someone into "therapy and taking anti-depressants' as you say. when he/she is sleeping out of his car 1000 miles away from you, get back to me.



oh stop. i'm not boiling this down into what you're saying. my point is that there is a pervasive sense of denial with parents and their kids. and it absolutely bleeds into mental health. i don't make sweeping generalizations and i don't attribute simple solutions to complex problems. you and hammer are sensitive about this for good reason, but relax. i'm not here to plant down a flag and declare myself king of sociology.
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Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:11 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:The two of you (Schmenguin and Tim Thomasen) do exactly what I counsel against: attach a simple (convenient) answer to an extremely complicated question:

Parents have the ability to treat mental illness if they get the proper help and treatment; thus, it's the parents' fault when a mentally ill individual does something wrong.

This, frankly, boils my blood a little bit. And you do this, in Tim's case, because you have observed two distinct mentally ill individuals, concluded one operates well and the other does not, noticed the parents were different, and then concluded that all you need is parental attention. This is the classic correlation-vs-causation fallacy multiplied by several orders of magnitude.

Mental illness encompasses an extremely broad set of conditions, each of which affect individuals in distinct ways. Evaluating mental illness from your experience with an austistic child (or children), is the equivalent of suggesting some cancer patients could be treated with anti-biotics or fluids because of your experience with cold patients. We recognize the breadth and spectrum of physical disease. Why can't we comprehend an equivalent spectrum for diseases of the mind?

I find it shockingly naive to suggest that parents can fix this problem; in fact, I find it extraordinarily insulting to the parents of mentally ill children. As I said in my post above doublem, we need to quit viewing mental illness through our own mentally competent perspective. We need to understand how the disease affects others. Like I said, how it can literally commandeer your brain. Can parents really right a ship piloted by a disease? Of course, not.


you're taking several leaps here, dude. you think 1 or 2 sentences that i quickly wrote on a message board encapsulates everything i believe in? i pointed out a problem, someone asked me to expand, and i did. at no point did i imply that it was "the" answer to this.
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