Sandy Hook Tragedy

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:12 pm

autism and serious mental illness are a lot different just in the fact how people look at them.
doublem
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,430
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:05 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby columbia on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:13 pm

Welcome back doublem.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 45,319
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby Tim Thomasen on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:17 pm

doublem wrote:autism and serious mental illness are a lot different just in the fact how people look at them.


Espically in the case of aspergers where you wouldn't know someone has it unless they told you. If you met me, you would just think i'm weird and not suffering from aspergers.
Tim Thomasen
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 959
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:33 pm
Location: You know, it's just not death with dignity if there's an Estevez in the room

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:17 pm

Tim Thomasen wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:The two of you (Schmenguin and Tim Thomasen) do exactly what I counsel against: attach a simple (convenient) answer to an extremely complicated question:

Parents have the ability to treat mental illness if they get the proper help and treatment; thus, it's the parents' fault when a mentally ill individual does something wrong.

This, frankly, boils my blood a little bit. And you do this, in Tim's case, because you have observed two distinct mentally ill individuals, concluded one operates well and the other does not, noticed the parents were different, and then concluded that all you need is parental attention. This is the classic correlation-vs-causation fallacy multiplied by several orders of magnitude.

Mental illness encompasses an extremely broad set of conditions, each of which affect individuals in distinct ways. Evaluating mental illness from your experience with an austistic child (or children), is the equivalent of suggesting some cancer patients could be treated with anti-biotics or fluids because of your experience with cold patients. We recognize the breadth and spectrum of physical disease. Why can't we comprehend an equivalent spectrum for diseases of the mind?

I find it shockingly naive to suggest that parents can fix this problem; in fact, I find it extraordinarily insulting to the parents of mentally ill children. As I said in my post above doublem, we need to quit viewing mental illness through our own mentally competent perspective. We need to understand how the disease affects others. Like I said, how it can literally commandeer your brain. Can parents really right a ship piloted by a disease? Of course, not.


Wow.

First off I hate to break it to you but my mom did help me alot growing up. She went to the school and made them aware of what I had and made support I got the help I needed. She did that, met with mental illness experts and attended a seminar on dealing with a kid with a mental illness. I wouldn't be who I am without her.

Second I am also who I am because even though I have trouble in social situtations, i'm social enough where I can communicate to people and I have a core set of friends as my support system.

And I fully believe this is true. My post only suggests your experience is not conclusive proof that the solution to your condition ("support from your obviously loving and commendable mother" [there's not a hint of sarcasm attached to that sentiment]), is not a solution to every mental illness problem. And to suggest so is naive.

I have little doubt that there are existing solutions to scores of metal illness issues. Many of these solutions involve additional effort by parents. I do not doubt that the more problematic child in Schmenguin's posts could be helped by parental guidance.

My point is more global (and a point I've been trying to make in a number of subjects): The solution to complicated problems is rarely simple. I have particular experience with mental illness world, and I think my hijacker analogy is apt. There's no way the most loving parent can get into the distant plane and subdue the hijacker.

Of course, I'm not suggesting all mental illness is like like hijacker---that would be hypocritical. I use it to add another wrinkle to the problem, which demonstrates the error in the analysis I accused you and Schmenguin of engaging in. Both of your solutions exhibit first-level thinking: correlative conclusions. But as soon as you introduce other examples you see that your initial solution doesn't work. So you need a more multi-faceted approach. This can continue. I don't have a solution, but I think this explanation supports the argument I am making and the argument the "I am the Mother article." We need to have a conversation that helps finds a realistic approach. But more importantly, we need to have a conversation that disspells the simplistic and dismissive attitudes towards mental illness.

Quick Edit:

Tim Thomasen wrote:
doublem wrote:autism and serious mental illness are a lot different just in the fact how people look at them.


Espically in the case of aspergers where you wouldn't know someone has it unless they told you. If you met me, you would just think i'm weird and not suffering from aspergers.



I fully support both of these statements, and I think they further support my point. In making this assertion, perhaps I am pigeon-holing Schmenguin's posts and dragging him under the bus by using him as a straw man. Independent of whether Schmenguin is one, the straw man does share a lot of the views I am arguing against.
TheHammer24
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,992
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:28 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:26 pm

As a society as a whole we just need more understanding of what mental illness is. we still live in a country where depression is thought to be a weakness. I work in the field and people I work with sometimes don't understand mental illness. I work with stigma fighting groups around the country and let me tell you it's not pretty for people and family members that are ill. These people have no where to turn, there kids are missing, going off meds, homeless. It's like a war out there.
doublem
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,430
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:05 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:30 pm

parental involvement is a jumping off point. it's hard to arrive at where you want to go, hammer, if you have that initial obstacle. having someone in your life who is a partner in getting the correct treatment for you is so critical, imo. and it doesn't happen enough. i don't think that's at all a flawed statement.

but beyond that...it's extremely complicated. obviously. even parents who are heavily involved will potentially struggle with the frustration of the lack of a "solution".
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,201
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:32 pm

doublem wrote:As a society as a whole we just need more understanding of what mental illness is. we still live in a country where depression is thought to be a weakness. I work in the field and people I work with sometimes don't understand mental illness. I work with stigma fighting groups around the country and let me tell you it's not pretty for people and family members that are ill. These people have no where to turn, there kids are missing, going off meds, homeless. It's like a war out there.

:thumb:

And Depression is one of the 'milder forms' of mental illness. I had a serious bout nearly twenty years ago. I've been symptom free ever since.

Those couple of years that I battled my depression cost me dearly. In terms of family relationships and in financial terms. I had no idea where to turn, and had no support system to rely on.

Employee Assistance Programs (EAP) are a great start, but I'm definitely one who thinks that mental illness should be treated 'on par' with physical illness.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby newarenanow on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:36 pm

I remember I used to think mental illness and depression was just a sign of weakness and never understood why people just don't "get over it". In my mind, if all is going well, why be depressed? I remember when Owen Wilson tried to kill himself or something because he was depressed, I gave a response of "we'll let him, he is a millionaire and has everything, and if he doesn't like it, then just kill yourself" or something like that.

Then one of my best friends went through and is still going through a bout of depression, extreme depression, which has also turned him to alcohol and other substances. This was a guy who was very successful and "normal" for most of his life. But underlying everything, he had a slight case of depression which he held inside from people not close to him for a long time, and then he went through a period where people close were dying, somethings didn't work out, and something clicked and the floodgates opened.

He would try to get help, and he had a very strong support group, but nothing worked. There was just something chemically wrong in his head that he just couldn't get over.

About 7 years later, he still has a strong support group, and after much help, he is better and on track, but can easily fall off the cliff. But there were other members of his family that did not make it and still had the same support. They were just further off.

So until I experienced it personally, I never understood it. But now I kind of do. And not every case is the same. Some are more extreme than others. Some have great support, but do not accept it. Others do and it works out well, and sometimes, the person just can't get better. And yes, there are cases where people just blow off the ill and not care. So it is very complicated and there is not one answer.

Heck, I found out a few years ago I suffer from anxiety. I have nothing to worry about, and everything is going well in my mind, but for some reason, at night, my heart starts going, my mind starts racing, and I just feel very anxious and can't settle down. In my mind, I tell myself I have nothing to worry about, but my body doesn't listen. I don't know.
newarenanow
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,128
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:39 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
doublem wrote:As a society as a whole we just need more understanding of what mental illness is. we still live in a country where depression is thought to be a weakness. I work in the field and people I work with sometimes don't understand mental illness. I work with stigma fighting groups around the country and let me tell you it's not pretty for people and family members that are ill. These people have no where to turn, there kids are missing, going off meds, homeless. It's like a war out there.

:thumb:

And Depression is one of the 'milder forms' of mental illness. I had a serious bout nearly twenty years ago. I've been symptom free ever since.

Those couple of years that I battled my depression cost me dearly. In terms of family relationships and in financial terms. I had no idea where to turn, and had no support system to rely on.

Employee Assistance Programs (EAP) are a great start, but I'm definitely one who thinks that mental illness should be treated 'on par' with physical illness.


EAP is great if you are lucky enough to have a job that offers it. Mine does, I use mine all the time but my insurance also doesn't cover mental health, how do we live in the 21st century and have this happen, isn't the brain apart of the body? and yes Depression is tier 2 or 3, goood luck getting help if you are at the top of the mental illness list.
doublem
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,430
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:05 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:44 pm

let me also say something it takes roughly 3-4 weeks in Allegheny county to see a psychiatry, 3 or 4 weeks. also the waiting list for housing for the mentally ill is literally years long.
doublem
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,430
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:05 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:52 pm

newarenanow wrote:I remember I used to think mental illness and depression was just a sign of weakness and never understood why people just don't "get over it". In my mind, if all is going well, why be depressed?


i think there's still an old school attitude out there, where you're supposed to just work through your problems instead of getting help via therapy or medication. maybe i'm wrong, but i feel like this is getting better with every generation. but in addition to the "denial" situation, this is another barrier with parental involvement. even if a problem is acknowledged, it's validity will come into question.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,201
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:55 pm

newarenanow wrote:Heck, I found out a few years ago I suffer from anxiety. I have nothing to worry about, and everything is going well in my mind, but for some reason, at night, my heart starts going, my mind starts racing, and I just feel very anxious and can't settle down. In my mind, I tell myself I have nothing to worry about, but my body doesn't listen. I don't know.


You have plenty to worry about. All the good ACC teams are leaving for the big 12, chryst is leaving for wisconsin, and there will never be hockey ever again.
KennyTheKangaroo
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,759
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:15 am
Location: Under the Skycoaster

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:55 pm

shmenguin wrote:
newarenanow wrote:I remember I used to think mental illness and depression was just a sign of weakness and never understood why people just don't "get over it". In my mind, if all is going well, why be depressed?


i think there's still an old school attitude out there, where you're supposed to just work through your problems instead of getting help via therapy or medication. maybe i'm wrong, but i feel like this is getting better with every generation. but in addition to the "denial" situation, this is another barrier with parental involvement. even if a problem is acknowledged, it's validity will come into question.

There's a big difference between telling someone to "man up" and learning coping skills such as cognative therapy.

I'm not a fan of long term maintenance doses of pharmaceuticals (despite having worked for one of the largest manufactures of said perscription drugs).

But it often takes a professional to get things started.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:56 pm

newarenanow wrote:I remember I used to think mental illness and depression was just a sign of weakness and never understood why people just don't "get over it". In my mind, if all is going well, why be depressed? I remember when Owen Wilson tried to kill himself or something because he was depressed, I gave a response of "we'll let him, he is a millionaire and has everything, and if he doesn't like it, then just kill yourself" or something like that.

Then one of my best friends went through and is still going through a bout of depression, extreme depression, which has also turned him to alcohol and other substances. This was a guy who was very successful and "normal" for most of his life. But underlying everything, he had a slight case of depression which he held inside from people not close to him for a long time, and then he went through a period where people close were dying, somethings didn't work out, and something clicked and the floodgates opened.

He would try to get help, and he had a very strong support group, but nothing worked. There was just something chemically wrong in his head that he just couldn't get over.

About 7 years later, he still has a strong support group, and after much help, he is better and on track, but can easily fall off the cliff. But there were other members of his family that did not make it and still had the same support. They were just further off.

So until I experienced it personally, I never understood it. But now I kind of do. And not every case is the same. Some are more extreme than others. Some have great support, but do not accept it. Others do and it works out well, and sometimes, the person just can't get better. And yes, there are cases where people just blow off the ill and not care. So it is very complicated and there is not one answer.

Heck, I found out a few years ago I suffer from anxiety. I have nothing to worry about, and everything is going well in my mind, but for some reason, at night, my heart starts going, my mind starts racing, and I just feel very anxious and can't settle down. In my mind, I tell myself I have nothing to worry about, but my body doesn't listen. I don't know.

This post embodies everything I've been trying to say.
TheHammer24
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,992
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:28 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby count2infinity on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:06 pm

welcome back Doublem, welcome back Trent.

I think that too many people make these cases black and white. It's the mental health issue, it's a parenting issue, it's just that he's a bad person and was going to do this no matter what issue. As with most anything in life it's likely a combination of everything that went into this man doing what he did. It's very likely with how rare these instances are (and they are rare... they are just such large news that people seem to think these to be everyday, every state, every town) there was a perfect storm of external and internal issues with this guy that caused him to lash out in the way he did. I don't blame any one particular thing or person for this, but at the end of the day, he did what he did and he is the one at fault for the situation. Were there contributors? Possibly. Were there people that looked the other way? Most definitely, but as someone said earlier, how many people could have truly known and truly believed he was capable of such an act? Maybe one or two. But could you fault them for not knowing, not thinking, or even imagining he was capable of this? I certainly can't.
Last edited by count2infinity on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
count2infinity
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,237
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:03 pm
Location: Can't wait for playoffs to up the dumb level ten fold in this place.

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby newarenanow on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:07 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:
newarenanow wrote:Heck, I found out a few years ago I suffer from anxiety. I have nothing to worry about, and everything is going well in my mind, but for some reason, at night, my heart starts going, my mind starts racing, and I just feel very anxious and can't settle down. In my mind, I tell myself I have nothing to worry about, but my body doesn't listen. I don't know.


You have plenty to worry about. All the good ACC teams are leaving for the big 12, chryst is leaving for wisconsin, and there will never be hockey ever again.


They are no longer going to the Big XII, they will be in the Big 10 and SEC.

Chryst is not leaving for Wisky.

Hockey will come again, just not this year.
newarenanow
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,128
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:13 pm

count2infinity wrote:welcome back Doublem, welcome back Trent.

I think that too many people make these cases black and white. It's the mental health issue, it's a parenting issue, it's just that he's a bad person and was going to do this no matter what issue. As with most anything in life it's likely a combination of everything that went into this man doing what he did. It's very likely with how rare these instances are (and they are rare... they are just such large news that people seem to think these to be everyday, every state, every town) there was a perfect storm of external and internal issues with this guy that caused him to lash out in the way he did. I don't blame any one particular thing or person for this, but at the end of the day, he did what he did and he is the one at fault for the situation. Were there contributors? Possibly. Were there people that looked the other way? Most definitely, but as someone said earlier, how many people could have truly known and truly believed he was capable of such an act? Maybe one or two. But could you fault them for not knowing, not thinking, or even imagining he was capable of this? I certainly can't.

DoubleM and c2i can do my bidding for life. Completely agree, c2i.
TheHammer24
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,992
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:28 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:46 pm

count2infinity wrote:welcome back Doublem, welcome back Trent.

I think that too many people make these cases black and white. It's the mental health issue, it's a parenting issue, it's just that he's a bad person and was going to do this no matter what issue. As with most anything in life it's likely a combination of everything that went into this man doing what he did. It's very likely with how rare these instances are (and they are rare... they are just such large news that people seem to think these to be everyday, every state, every town) there was a perfect storm of external and internal issues with this guy that caused him to lash out in the way he did. I don't blame any one particular thing or person for this, but at the end of the day, he did what he did and he is the one at fault for the situation. Were there contributors? Possibly. Were there people that looked the other way? Most definitely, but as someone said earlier, how many people could have truly known and truly believed he was capable of such an act? Maybe one or two. But could you fault them for not knowing, not thinking, or even imagining he was capable of this? I certainly can't.


i don't think anyone here is making it black and white, though - despite certain accusations. i haven't seen anyone really do that anywhere else either. you should be able to present one component of story without adding a disclaimer that it's not the ONLY component.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,201
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby count2infinity on Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:10 pm

i agree that you should be able to, but it doesn't always necessarily work that way, and you know that.
count2infinity
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,237
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:03 pm
Location: Can't wait for playoffs to up the dumb level ten fold in this place.

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby penny lane on Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:55 pm

NBC News @NBCNews Obama on the courage of #Newton: "One kid even said, 'I know karate. It's OK, I will lead the way out.'" #vigil


Let the kids talk it out.
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 28,473
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Summer sunshine heals!

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby AlexPKeaton on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:11 pm

Dropping in late to this thread. Has the possibility of a re-funding of "softer" types of mental institutions come up? It is a bit disconcerting to me that the media is talking non stop about gun control, when no amount of gun control would have prevented this from happening as he simply stole the guns from someone who would have gotten approved under even the strictest standards. Seems like the media is wasting everyone's time again for ratings.
AlexPKeaton
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,700
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:46 am
Location: Malkinite Compound

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:13 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:Dropping in late to this thread. Has the possibility of a re-funding of "softer" types of mental institutions come up? It is a bit disconcerting to me that the media is talking non stop about gun control, when no amount of gun control would have prevented this from happening as he simply stole the guns from someone who would have gotten approved under even the strictest standards. Seems like the media is wasting everyone's time again for ratings.

That is what we started to hit on with the "I am Adam L's mother" article.
TheHammer24
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,992
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:28 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby pittsoccer33 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:16 pm

a psychiatrist was a guest on Limbaugh's show today. she was going over just how hard it is to commit somebody to a mental health institution. basically they have a right to not take medicine and to be "crazy." there is no way to force a mentally ill person to take medicine.
pittsoccer33
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,224
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby canaan on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:22 pm

media agenda:

1. sensationalize (the situation)
2. polarize (opinions)
3. ????? (ratings)
4. profit
canaan
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 38,459
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Fritos. On. My. Sub.

Re: Breaking: School shooting in CT

Postby count2infinity on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:25 pm

pittsoccer33 wrote:a psychiatrist was a guest on Limbaugh's show today. she was going over just how hard it is to commit somebody to a mental health institution. basically they have a right to not take medicine and to be "crazy." there is no way to force a mentally ill person to take medicine.


the problem is that too many see being "crazy" is a bad thing. there are people out there that have severe problems that won't go get help because of the stigma that goes along with seeing a psychiatrist or being on meds, or just help in any way, shape or form. It's sad really because there are people that need help but will refuse to get it which is well within their rights to deny help, but it's horrible that psychiatric care is so frowned upon by so many.
count2infinity
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,237
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:03 pm
Location: Can't wait for playoffs to up the dumb level ten fold in this place.

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Beveridge, DelPen, ffemtreed, skullman80 and 7 guests

e-mail