Official Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:16 pm

I don't see a difference. They have had a season like this each of the last several years. The same people jump on the bandwagon immediately when they play well and off by the second week in September if they play poorly. The Pirates for the past several years have really put a spotlight on how bad the bandwagon jumping is even more than any other team in sports the past few years.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby BleuLineLady on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:19 pm

Rocco wrote:
BleuLineLady wrote:I don't live in Pittsburgh anymore, I live in Chicago actually and God knows, I know that spending money does not always equal success. The Cubs are one of the few teams in baseball that spend like crazy and still lose. With that said, the Nuttings are one of the few ownership groups that are making very good money on their team right now. Most baseball owners dont own teams to make money. They own the team to win and because its a passion for them. See Mark Cuban. The Nuttings are getting an increase in TV money this year, millions of dollars on top of the 10-20 M in profit they make every year. They have a payroll that ranks in the bottom half of the league. Just because they're spending a little bit more than in previous years does not say much to me.


They have a payroll in the bottom half of the league because they have revenues that are near the bottom half of the league. As attendance has increased, so has payroll. As the team has gotten better payroll has increased. They haven't really had players worth spending money on, though I'm sure we would have loved it if they lavished a huge contract on Lastings Milledge just to spend money. And the Nuttings don't make as much money on the team as everyone thinks they do. They opened their books back in 2010.

http://www.piratesprospects.com/2010/08 ... rence.html

You'll notice that profits went down as Nutting took full control and the Pirates started spending money on draft picks (which is another thing fans have said the team had to do to show they were serious about winning and then ignored once the team actually did just that).

Mark Cuban spent a ton of money to win a title. Once the Mavericks won the title, he stopped spending money and dismantled the team that won a title because he didn't want to spend a lot of money on a team that wasn't all that good. He's now handing out contracts in panic mode because they missed out on the big free agents. I know this because I am a Mavericks fan and have watched in utter horror as they signed Monta Ellis who doesn't fit with this team at all. The Angels and Dodgers threw tons of cash around this offseason and it hasn't done them a ton of good.


Actually, you make a very accurate point. Revenues are lower and subsequently have increased as they gotten better and they have spent more money. The point of the story is you have to spend money to make money, especially in the entertainment industry, which is what professional sports are. If you put a poor product on the field, nobody is going to watch it. If you spend money and invest in the product you are showing, your profits will grow, attendance will grow, television money will increase and the value of the franchise will increase, which it has by 43%. From 2010 to today, they have gone from spending the least amount in all of baseball up to 19th. Which should be commended. The Nuttings have full rights to increase ticket prices (and trust me they will as time goes on), concession prices, merchandise etc however much they want if they are putting a winning team on the field. I have zero problem with that or with any franchise raising ticket prices if the team is winning. That's the price fans have to pay to be entertained and to see a winning team. Between what fans in Pittsburgh spend on Steelers and Penguins tickets every year, the market has shown that the demand for attending sports games is there. Pittsburgh is a great market for a baseball team that is competitive, actually it has been a good market for many of the years the team has not been even remotely competitive. Ownership has operated in the black and have made profits on the seasons when the team had 100 losses.

The misconception is that the Nuttings cant afford to spend more. That because they are a small market franchise located in a small metro area that they will never be able to compete with the major market franchises when it comes to spending. This assumption is completely false.

Up until this year, the Pirates salary level was the lowest in the major leagues or a few spots from the bottom. If you look at the salary figures from 2008 onward (the time in which the Nuttings became the controlling owner in the team), that's where the team ranked. 19th/20th in the league is the highest they have spent in money. However, if you look at a list published by CNBC for where the Nuttings are ranked in wealth as owners, they are ranked as the 10th wealthiest ownership group in all of baseball.

http://communityvoices.post-gazette.com ... hest-owner


The Nuttings are worth over 1.1 billion and operate the Pirates in the black while making a profit every year. Are you telling me that Bob Nutting cant afford to spend more than what he has so far? If you believe that, then you are not facing facts. Can they afford to spend more? Yes. Were they willing to in the past? No. And maybe, they were right not to do so, considering the team was nowhere near able to compete, however times are changing. At some point, whether its this year or a year or 2 from now, Pirates revenues will continue to increase if they remain competitive and/or go to the playoffs. At that point, are the Nuttings going to be willing to push the balance sheet aside in a given moment like so many other owners have done to get this team over the top? That is the unknown question. Very few teams in recent memory have won championships without being in the top 10, top half in the league in spending. The odds are highly stacked against you otherwise. You have to go back a decade to the 2003 Florida Marlins to find a team that won the World Series on a low payroll.

I am not expecting the Pirates to spend like the Yankees, but to somehow excuse the Nuttings and assert that "well Bob Nutting is doing the best he can with the financial resources he has" simply is creating an excuse that is not accurate and is unnecessary. He can run his ball club however he wants, but the amount of money they are spending on the team is based on choices not limitations. Until I see them fully following up and coming through when the time comes to pony up the extra money it will take to win it all, I will remain skeptical and so should you. I do believe that for any sports team to win, in most cases they need smart general management, scouting and smart coaching in combination with the necessary financial backing. Sure there are exceptions to the rule and some teams have won despite the money not being there. They gamed the system and figured it out, but its not a common occurrence. A well managed team and a well-funded team is the most common recipe for winning championships.

I dont question whether or not Bob Nutting wants to win, I question what is more important to him. Ideally, a baseball owner wants to make money and wants to win championships. Those are the two goals. During some seasons, owners forego the former (after years of profitability) to go after the latter. We will see what the Pirates owners do.

Barmes and Barajas were not good signings nor good examples of the team spending money. In fact, considering they are paying Barmes 5 million dollars for what? Good defense? Again, not good signings. The Liriano signing was good by Huntington, but they spent a million. They took a chance on somebody nobody else wanted. It worked out, congrats to Huntington but what does that have to do with the Nuttings.


If Nutting didn't want to win, they wouldn't have spent any of this cash. Chase D'Arnaud would have been the short stop because he was in the system and cheap. They wouldn't have taken on Burnett's salary and baggage or taken a chance on Liriano (and they're going to owe him way more than a million, but since this is a fact-free post of yours, what's one more liberty with the facts?) These were moves made to improve the team's weaknesses from the 2011 season. Barajas didn't work and was jettisoned for a part that did work. Over the last few years the Pirates have tried a number of pieces and have junked the parts that didn't work for parts that did work. It's a fairly reasonable approach for a team with limited financial resources that can't afford to fix everything at once.


Liriano is making 1 million in base salary, they are paying him 3.75 mil additional in bonuses if he plays so many games. That's the fact. 3.75 M on a successful venture into a potentially decent pitcher nobody else wanted was a smart move, no question. 3.75 mil on a decent pitcher is hardly a huge expense however. They pay Jeff Karstens 2 mil... that should say everything that needs to be said. It was a smart move made by the GM and his staff to sign Liriano, giving credit anywhere else is unnecessary.
Last edited by BleuLineLady on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:20 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I don't see a difference. They have had a season like this each of the last several years. The same people jump on the bandwagon immediately when they play well and off by the second week in September if they play poorly. The Pirates for the past several years have really put a spotlight on how bad the bandwagon jumping is even more than any other team in sports the past few years.


It's hard to blame entirely on the fanbase, I think it's honestly a perfect storm:

1) Consecutive decades of losing seasons

2) Low expectations

3) Team comes out and drastically overachieves for the first 2/3 of the season, surprising everyone and causing intense optimism among the fanbase

4) (Specifically 2012) Team proceeds to suffer the worst collapse in the history of Major League Baseball, and finishes with a record not even close to .500 considering where they were in September.

When you have a confluence of circumstances like this, the bandwagon is going to fluctuate like crazy.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby WDWBurghGooner on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:28 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I don't see a difference. They have had a season like this each of the last several years. The same people jump on the bandwagon immediately when they play well and off by the second week in September if they play poorly. The Pirates for the past several years have really put a spotlight on how bad the bandwagon jumping is even more than any other team in sports the past few years.


20+ years of losing.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:38 pm

WDWBurghGooner wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I don't see a difference. They have had a season like this each of the last several years. The same people jump on the bandwagon immediately when they play well and off by the second week in September if they play poorly. The Pirates for the past several years have really put a spotlight on how bad the bandwagon jumping is even more than any other team in sports the past few years.


20+ years of losing.


That argument's validity is pretty badly undermined when fans show up after a couple good months then jump ship after a bad month. That has been going on throughout the whole streak of losing seasons, but has certainly been amplified the last few when those good streaks happened early on so they were out of it immediately.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby IanMoran on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:56 pm

Paying a little more attention doesn't make you "bandwagon."

With the Pens / Steelers / even Pitt, I watch EVERY game I can.

With the Bucs I probably watched 30-40 games or so, followed their results / knew the team, but I never really scheduled things around Pirate games like I do with the others (just too many games)

Now that they're winning these last 3 years, my viewing has probably doubled. I just can't watch 162 games / plan days around the games like I can with other spots (because of the length) so there isn't the "watch every game" that I have with other teams, but now that they are winning I do find myself watching more games..

I find this different than the Pens bandwagoners who didn't know the team at all and now suddenly love them. I remember being so excited when won Crosby lottery and all my friends (now "diehards") saying umm coool? That's a little different than someone who watched 40 games a year, now watching about 85..
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:09 pm

IanMoran wrote:I find this different than the Pens bandwagoners who didn't know the team at all and now suddenly love them. I remember being so excited when won Crosby lottery and all my friends (now "diehards") saying umm coool? That's a little different than someone who watched 40 games a year, now watching about 85..


I think its a direct comparison. How many people around the city could have told you who the Pirates' 3B was before this season?
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby Rocco on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:31 pm

BleuLineLady wrote:Actually, you make a very accurate point. Revenues are lower and subsequently have increased as they gotten better and they have spent more money. The point of the story is you have to spend money to make money, especially in the entertainment industry, which is what professional sports are.


And if you spend money but don't make money, you end up like the Maryland athletic department. (Spoiler alert: they went deep into debt when attendance didn't improve after they spent large amounts of money on their programs.) It doesn't make sense to spend money if the team isn't any good. It's taken them a while to have a foundation worthy of investment, and they're investing in the team. What a concept.

If you put a poor product on the field, nobody is going to watch it. If you spend money and invest in the product you are showing, your profits will grow, attendance will grow, television money will increase and the value of the franchise will increase, which it has by 43%.


How many cliches are you going to stuff into a post? The Cubs have a terrible product and still draw. Meanwhile, Tampa can't draw despite being one of baseball's better teams over the last few years.

The misconception is that the Nuttings cant afford to spend more. That because they are a small market franchise located in a small metro area that they will never be able to compete with the major market franchises when it comes to spending. This assumption is completely false.


The misconception you have is that it's all Nutting's money. It's not. He has minority owners to whom he is responsible. He can't spend money they don't have and more importantly don't want to spend. And the minority owners seem to think he's spending the money properly.

http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/3769 ... z2PPDZy1nL

The idea that Nutting is realizing large profits each year is not true, Lustig said.
“Whatever we made in profit went back into the franchise,” he said.


Up until this year, the Pirates salary level was the lowest in the major leagues or a few spots from the bottom. If you look at the salary figures from 2008 onward (the time in which the Nuttings became the controlling owner in the team), that's where the team ranked. 19th/20th in the league is the highest they have spent in money. However, if you look at a list published by CNBC for where the Nuttings are ranked in wealth as owners, they are ranked as the 10th wealthiest ownership group in all of baseball.


I imagine he didn't become wealthy by flushing money down the toilet. Again, did you want them to give big money to Lastings Milledge? The 2008-10 teams had a lot of younger players who weren't very good and were cheap. Look at the 2008 team and tell me who they should have kept around. There's a reason everyone on that team is gone. Also, take a look at the farm system then and the farm system now. The system is significantly better because Nutting authorized significant improvements in scouting, development and signing bonuses for prospects. They traded away players making money from their awful teams, which is a standard move of bad teams. The Red Sox did this last year and cleared their books of a number of bad contracts. As the talent on the field improved, spending has improved. If you aren't disputing that, then I don't understand why you are still saying the Pirates don't care about winning. If you're going to stink, why spend $70M to stink? Mario and Burkle did this from 2001 to 2004. They had Rico Fata and Konstantin Koltsov as top-6 forwards. Dan Focht was involved. They spent money coming out of the lockout when they had expectations. Did they not want to win? Other baseball teams have operated on this plan. Houston's payroll is nothing. Miami just gave away Ricky Nolasco because he was owed money. At some point, the wave of talent the Pirates have will end, and they'll have to start the cycle from the beginning. It's annoying but it's a fact of life for teams that aren't high-revenue teams.

The Nuttings are worth over 1.1 billion and operate the Pirates in the black while making a profit every year. Are you telling me that Bob Nutting cant afford to spend more than what he has so far?


A) It's not all his money. If he increases the money he invests, he increases his stake in the team. Tim Williams does a decent job of explaining things. http://www.piratesprospects.com/2013/04 ... owner.html
B) He's going to run it like a business and not spend money the team doesn't have. He's stated that time and again. Again, people with money don't get that way because they threw money into giant black holes.
C) McClatchy ran the team into debt, which is why they had to give away Aramis Ramirez for next to nothing and why Nutting was able to get the team in the first place. He's been digging out from under that mess since he took over.

At some point, whether its this year or a year or 2 from now, Pirates revenues will continue to increase if they remain competitive and/or go to the playoffs. At that point, are the Nuttings going to be willing to push the balance sheet aside in a given moment like so many other owners have done to get this team over the top? That is the unknown question. Very few teams in recent memory have won championships without being in the top 10, top half in the league in spending. The odds are highly stacked against you otherwise. You have to go back a decade to the 2003 Florida Marlins to find a team that won the World Series on a low payroll.


Thank you for the history lesson. Would never have known all that.

I am not expecting the Pirates to spend like the Yankees, but to somehow excuse the Nuttings and assert that "well Bob Nutting is doing the best he can with the financial resources he has" simply is creating an excuse that is not accurate and is unnecessary.


You're expecting Nutting to dump his own money into the team and run them at a significant loss in order to satisfy your wishes. Yes, you do want them to spend like the Yankees. It would be cool to see a Pirates team throw stacks of cash around but it's not going to happen.

He can run his ball club however he wants, but the amount of money they are spending on the team is based on choices not limitations. Until I see them fully following up and coming through when the time comes to pony up the extra money it will take to win it all, I will remain skeptical and so should you.


Again, if they didn't care at all about winning, this team would have a $50M payroll and McCutchen would staring at an arbitration hearing at the end of the season.

I dont question whether or not Bob Nutting wants to win, I question what is more important to him. Ideally, a baseball owner wants to make money and wants to win championships. Those are the two goals. During some seasons, owners forego the former (after years of profitability) to go after the latter. We will see what the Pirates owners do.


So basically everything the Pirates have done to show they want to win is worthless because you will keep creating new goals for them to hit. Winning a title is hard and requires a number of breaks. I don't know if they will ever get there. I do think they are actively trying which is more than can be said for the McClatchy years. Based on what Nutting has done I think they will pursue a title but aren't going to blow out the budget or trade in their elite prospects.

Liriano is making 1 million in base salary, they are paying him 3.75 mil additional in bonuses if he plays so many games. That's the fact. 3.75 M on a successful venture into a potentially decent pitcher nobody else wanted was a smart move, no question. 3.75 mil on a decent pitcher is hardly a huge expense however. They pay Jeff Karstens 2 mil... that should say everything that needs to be said. It was a smart move made by the GM and his staff to sign Liriano, giving credit anywhere else is unnecessary.


Who authorizes the salary outlay? Liriano's also got an option that's likely going to vest for next season given how well he's pitching. I keep forgetting that every good move the Pirates have made somehow doesn't count because there's an extenuating circumstance, but every bad move is proof that Nutting just wants to collect money and shoot off fireworks to keep people coming in like sheep to PNC.
Last edited by Rocco on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby IanMoran on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:31 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
IanMoran wrote:I find this different than the Pens bandwagoners who didn't know the team at all and now suddenly love them. I remember being so excited when won Crosby lottery and all my friends (now "diehards") saying umm coool? That's a little different than someone who watched 40 games a year, now watching about 85..


I think its a direct comparison. How many people around the city could have told you who the Pirates' 3B was before this season?

A LOT more than could have told you the Penguins 1st line pre-Crosby.

Obviously, some pure bandwagoning is occurring, but I think on average with the Pens it was "I HATE HOCKEY, WHAT'S HOCKEY" to OMGZZ I LUV THE PENS. I think, with the Pirates, it has been more of... people that watched some Pirate baseball / paid attention to them, are watching a little more Pirate baseball
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby WDWBurghGooner on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:38 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
WDWBurghGooner wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I don't see a difference. They have had a season like this each of the last several years. The same people jump on the bandwagon immediately when they play well and off by the second week in September if they play poorly. The Pirates for the past several years have really put a spotlight on how bad the bandwagon jumping is even more than any other team in sports the past few years.


20+ years of losing.


That argument's validity is pretty badly undermined when fans show up after a couple good months then jump ship after a bad month. That has been going on throughout the whole streak of losing seasons, but has certainly been amplified the last few when those good streaks happened early on so they were out of it immediately.


I think you are ridiculously undermining what all that losing does to a fan's pysche and passion. Not to mention it fosters a "here we go again" mentality. How many times during those brief winning periods would people have called you insane if you thought they could maintain the winning over the course of a season? A lot.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:48 pm

I don't see why that matters. If you're a baseball fan, its the perfect time to have a ticket plan. I have always been a Braves fan and up until 2010, had a partial ticket plan with the Pirates so I could go to games. It was a dream to pay so little for 21 or whatever games. The problem with bandwagoners was, is, and always will be that they aren't fans. They're going to the event because its what people are talking about. They don't contribute anything to the enjoyment of the game the way discussion with real fans does. That is why the guy that was there through the bad times is better than the guy that wasn't.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby Factorial on Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:55 pm

^ coming from a Braves fan. :roll:
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby IanMoran on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:11 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I don't see why that matters. If you're a baseball fan, its the perfect time to have a ticket plan. I have always been a Braves fan and up until 2010, had a partial ticket plan with the Pirates so I could go to games. It was a dream to pay so little for 21 or whatever games. The problem with bandwagoners was, is, and always will be that they aren't fans. They're going to the event because its what people are talking about. They don't contribute anything to the enjoyment of the game the way discussion with real fans does. That is why the guy that was there through the bad times is better than the guy that wasn't.

Not disagreeing with anything you stated here
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby newarenanow on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:24 pm

IanMoran wrote:Paying a little more attention doesn't make you "bandwagon."

With the Pens / Steelers / even Pitt, I watch EVERY game I can.

With the Bucs I probably watched 30-40 games or so, followed their results / knew the team, but I never really scheduled things around Pirate games like I do with the others (just too many games)

Now that they're winning these last 3 years, my viewing has probably doubled. I just can't watch 162 games / plan days around the games like I can with other spots (because of the length) so there isn't the "watch every game" that I have with other teams, but now that they are winning I do find myself watching more games..

I find this different than the Pens bandwagoners who didn't know the team at all and now suddenly love them. I remember being so excited when won Crosby lottery and all my friends (now "diehards") saying umm coool? That's a little different than someone who watched 40 games a year, now watching about 85..


This is pretty much my rooting habids. Since about 1988, when I started to get into sports, I've loved the Pens, Steelers, and Pitt FB/BB. I probably literally watch/listen to 90% of the games and when I was single, that was probably up around 99%. I'd consider myself diehard with them.

The Buccos, I feel I've been a "strong" fan. But I can't watch every single game, and just in general, the sport of baseball doesn't excite me as much. During these past 20 years, I've gone to like 6 or 7 games a year, and watch probably 60 or so games a year. When they are playing well, my interest peaks more.

When a team is winning, it's natural that interest peaks. I also think when the team has been one of the worst in their sport for 2 decades, their interest is gonig to be even lower than normal. And honestly, there are people drinking age where this si the first time they EVER saw winning baseball in their hometown. And you'd probably have to be in your mid to late 20s to even remember the last winning team.

To me, this isn't like the Pens where they had 4 seasons of bad hockey after making 13 straight playoff appearances, and during that time, people were saying they didn't care if the team moved, and as soon as Crosby game, they were the best fans ever.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby pfim on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:34 pm

Many people don't want to pay to watch hopelessness and despair. I can't blame them if they don't and then want to come back when the atmosphere is a bit sunnier.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby BleuLineLady on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:37 pm

Rocco wrote:
BleuLineLady wrote:Actually, you make a very accurate point. Revenues are lower and subsequently have increased as they gotten better and they have spent more money. The point of the story is you have to spend money to make money, especially in the entertainment industry, which is what professional sports are.


And if you spend money but don't make money, you end up like the Maryland athletic department. (Spoiler alert: they went deep into debt when attendance didn't improve after they spent large amounts of money on their programs.) It doesn't make sense to spend money if the team isn't any good. It's taken them a while to have a foundation worthy of investment, and they're investing in the team. What a concept.


I am not suggesting they operate in the red for any significant period of time. You're putting words in my mouth if you think if I said that. And I agree that spending should not be done just for the sake of spending. Bob Nutting would never do that, so I wouldnt worry about that. They are investing, but have not invested enough yet. I'm skeptical how far they will go, but we'll see. I think they'll realize as they continue to invest more, they'll get a higher valuation of their franchise and will make more money long term. As I mentioned, raising ticket prices, tv money, merchandise, etc. I, for one as a fan of any sport would never complain with expensive tickets if the team justified it in their play. If they turn the Pirates into an annual playoff team, charge whatever you want Bob Nutting, people will come, sell-outs will happen regularly and you will be very profitable.

If you put a poor product on the field, nobody is going to watch it. If you spend money and invest in the product you are showing, your profits will grow, attendance will grow, television money will increase and the value of the franchise will increase, which it has by 43%.


How many cliches are you going to stuff into a post? The Cubs have a terrible product and still draw. Meanwhile, Tampa can't draw despite being one of baseball's better teams over the last few years.


How many do you want me to stuff into a post? Cubs fans are upset with the poor management, I can attest to that living here but at the end of the day, its become a bit of a joke for most Northsiders. Most people go to the game because its Wrigley field and its an amazing experience. Baseball in Chicago, especially at Wrigley is an experience and that's primarily why people go. And also the Cubs despite not winning a WS in over a hundred years have been competitive in recent memory at the very least, so that has kept people around as well. They won a 100 games a few years back if I recall. Chicago is a major city, and is a great baseball city. Tampa does not have that sort of market filled with baseball crazed people.

The misconception is that the Nuttings cant afford to spend more. That because they are a small market franchise located in a small metro area that they will never be able to compete with the major market franchises when it comes to spending. This assumption is completely false.


The misconception you have is that it's all Nutting's money. It's not. He has minority owners to whom he is responsible. He can't spend money they don't have and more importantly don't want to spend.


Your point makes no sense. The point is they do have the money. Whether they are willing to spend it or not does not change anything from what I have been saying.

Up until this year, the Pirates salary level was the lowest in the major leagues or a few spots from the bottom. If you look at the salary figures from 2008 onward (the time in which the Nuttings became the controlling owner in the team), that's where the team ranked. 19th/20th in the league is the highest they have spent in money. However, if you look at a list published by CNBC for where the Nuttings are ranked in wealth as owners, they are ranked as the 10th wealthiest ownership group in all of baseball.


I imagine he didn't become wealthy by flushing money down the toilet. Again, did you want them to give big money to Lastings Milledge? The 2008-10 teams had a lot of younger players who weren't very good and were cheap. Look at the 2008 team and tell me who they should have kept around. There's a reason everyone on that team is gone. Also, take a look at the farm system then and the farm system now. The system is significantly better because Nutting authorized significant improvements in scouting, development and signing bonuses for prospects. They traded away players making money from their awful teams, which is a standard move of bad teams. The Red Sox did this last year and cleared their books of a number of bad contracts. As the talent on the field improved, spending has improved. If you aren't disputing that, then I don't understand why you are still saying the Pirates don't care about winning. If you're going to stink, why spend $70M to stink? Mario and Burkle did this from 2001 to 2004. They had Rico Fata and Konstantin Koltsov as top-6 forwards. Dan Focht was involved. They spent money coming out of the lockout when they had expectations. Did they not want to win? Other baseball teams have operated on this plan. Houston's payroll is nothing. Miami just gave away Ricky Nolasco because he was owed money. At some point, the wave of talent the Pirates have will end, and they'll have to start the cycle from the beginning. It's annoying but it's a fact of life for teams that aren't high-revenue teams.


Who cares about Lastings Milledge? You keep bringing that name up. I am not referencing to any one player, nor should I need to highlight in a microcasm who they should have signed or kept. This isnt about one player or any player. Its about a history and a reputation that the Nuttings have. Call it far or unfair. Apology for them or dont. I believe that they can spend more and ya know what they very well might do that, even this year. And if they do, then I will stand corrected and will respect the Nuttings for following through. They have done some good things, no doubt, but I'm not sold yet and my opinion is not going to change until otherwise.

The Nuttings are worth over 1.1 billion and operate the Pirates in the black while making a profit every year. Are you telling me that Bob Nutting cant afford to spend more than what he has so far?


A) It's not all his money. If he increases the money he invests, he increases his stake in the team. Tim Williams does a decent job of explaining things. http://www.piratesprospects.com/2013/04 ... owner.html
B) He's going to run it like a business and not spend money the team doesn't have. He's stated that time and again. Again, people with money don't get that way because they threw money into giant black holes.
C) McClatchy ran the team into debt, which is why they had to give away Aramis Ramirez for next to nothing and why Nutting was able to get the team in the first place. He's been digging out from under that mess since he took over.

I liked how you took much of your commentary from that article. I read it myself as well before you cited it. The assertion that he or the other owners do not have the money is based on an assumption. I question that assumption. The mythical billionaire reference this guy is talking about in his article does not really make sense. Bob Nutting, by himself is a billionaire. As far as what I have read about his net worth. One thing that you can trust is that Bob Nutting will run this team like a business. He will always make sure he is being profitable regardless of the results. Again, until I see otherwise, that is my opinion and the opinion of many. Bob Nutting is considered by many outsiders in baseball as being a bad owner. Outsiders have made that observation. I don't think he's been bad recently but to somehow apologize for losing in the past and to apologize for a guy's financial circumstances as an excuse for why they are not winning or for why the status quo is good enough just does not cut it for me. You should not be apologizing for owners who are making money off of the fans every year and every year up until this point have dissappointed you. What sort of track record is that. There is no leeway to give in my opinion, until they do right by the fans. The owners should realize that the Pirates fan base has been discouraged from 20 years of losing and at some point they have to go that extra mile if theyre going to gain the praise and appreciation from a fan base that has been taken advantage of them for decades.

At some point, whether its this year or a year or 2 from now, Pirates revenues will continue to increase if they remain competitive and/or go to the playoffs. At that point, are the Nuttings going to be willing to push the balance sheet aside in a given moment like so many other owners have done to get this team over the top? That is the unknown question. Very few teams in recent memory have won championships without being in the top 10, top half in the league in spending. The odds are highly stacked against you otherwise. You have to go back a decade to the 2003 Florida Marlins to find a team that won the World Series on a low payroll.


Thank you for the history lesson. Would never have known all that.


I'm just stating the facts and making an obvious point that goes back to the entire discussion we are having in the first place. Money does matter.

I am not expecting the Pirates to spend like the Yankees, but to somehow excuse the Nuttings and assert that "well Bob Nutting is doing the best he can with the financial resources he has" simply is creating an excuse that is not accurate and is unnecessary.


You're expecting Nutting to dump his own money into the team and run them at a significant loss in order to satisfy your wishes. Yes, you do want them to spend like the Yankees. It would be cool to see a Pirates team throw stacks of cash around but it's not going to happen.


Actually, I'm not. Again, putting words in my mouth. I think spending like the Reds would be ample some year.

He can run his ball club however he wants, but the amount of money they are spending on the team is based on choices not limitations. Until I see them fully following up and coming through when the time comes to pony up the extra money it will take to win it all, I will remain skeptical and so should you.


Again, if they didn't care at all about winning, this team would have a $50M payroll and McCutchen would staring at an arbitration hearing at the end of the season.


I never said they didnt want to win.

I dont question whether or not Bob Nutting wants to win, I question what is more important to him. Ideally, a baseball owner wants to make money and wants to win championships. Those are the two goals. During some seasons, owners forego the former (after years of profitability) to go after the latter. We will see what the Pirates owners do.


So basically everything the Pirates have done to show they want to win is worthless because you will keep creating new goals for them to hit. Winning a title is hard and requires a number of breaks. I don't know if they will ever get there. I do think they are actively trying which is more than can be said for the McClatchy years. Based on what Nutting has done I think they will pursue a title but aren't going to blow out the budget or trade in their elite prospects.


Maybe you are setting the bar too low and setting expectations too low.

Liriano is making 1 million in base salary, they are paying him 3.75 mil additional in bonuses if he plays so many games. That's the fact. 3.75 M on a successful venture into a potentially decent pitcher nobody else wanted was a smart move, no question. 3.75 mil on a decent pitcher is hardly a huge expense however. They pay Jeff Karstens 2 mil... that should say everything that needs to be said. It was a smart move made by the GM and his staff to sign Liriano, giving credit anywhere else is unnecessary.


Who authorizes the salary outlay? Liriano's also got an option that's likely going to vest for next season given how well he's pitching. I keep forgetting that every good move the Pirates have made somehow doesn't count because there's an extenuating circumstance, but every bad move is proof that Nutting just wants to collect money and shoot off fireworks to keep people coming in like sheep to PNC.


Good moves, smart deals I give full credit to the GM for making a smart move that did not cost them a lot. Unless Bob Nutting made that selection (which I say facetiously). Bob Nutting gives the GM the budget. Its the GM's responsibility to work within that budget. The players selected are based on the GM. Bad moves are bad moves. Nothing more than that. I'm simply just stating what they are, not overstating the good moves like you are. I dont give the Nuttings credit for the moves that were made that have benefited this team just as I dont criticize them for the bad moves the GM has made. That's on the GM. What's on the owners is the budget and what the budget restraints are for the GM.
Last edited by BleuLineLady on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby penny lane on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:40 pm

:D ding- ^ the female draftnik! ;)
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:50 pm

penny lane wrote::D ding- ^ the female draftnik! ;)


except draftnik had valid points
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:52 pm

bleu line lady has conceeded that nutting shouldnt spend just to spend, and that there hasnt been many worthwhile players to spend the money on in the past half decade. she has not said that he doesnt want to win

but hes cheap becuase he hasnt spent and therefore wants to make money before winning
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:53 pm

also, what things can the pirates organization do to show to validate their seriousness people who want to win ballgames?
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby pfim on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:55 pm

Your point makes no sense. The point is they do have the money. Whether they are willing to spend it or not does not change anything from what I have been saying.


If Nutting puts more of his own money into the club, what happens with the other 20% of the ownership?
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby BleuLineLady on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:00 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:bleu line lady has conceeded that nutting shouldnt spend just to spend, and that there hasnt been many worthwhile players to spend the money on in the past half decade. she has not said that he doesnt want to win

but hes cheap becuase he hasnt spent and therefore wants to make money before winning


I never conceeded that there werent any good players to spend money on, I said that its not about one player and to cite one example doesnt really make sense. Were there players the Pirates could have signed to make the team marginally better in years past, probably? The problems with the team went far beyond money though, it was bad management as well. Now that they have righted that ship with better management, I think the question of whether or not the Nuttings will spend more than usual if it means giving the Pirates a serious chance to a win in the playoffs is yet to be seen. What about their past. makes you think they will change how they do things now? I am simply making a judgment based on past actions not what they will do in the future. Maybe they will surprise us all and if they do, I will stand corrected and will give them praise.
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:03 pm

Take 2005-10, when the Pirates didn't win any more than 68 games in any season (and 57 in the dreaded 2010 campaign). So what if a massive chunk of the fanbase paid superficial attention to the franchise during that period? The extent of my attention paid during that time was via ESPN.com, checking to see who they drafted, and other personnel news.

Does that make me a bandwagoner? Or does it just mean I paid much less attention when watching the Pirates was worse than the worst dental procedure you can think of? If it's the former, than that describes every single fanbase in baseball.

And as Factorial pointed out, Atlanta (specifically, the Braves) is one of the most notorious bandwagon sports towns in all of professional sports, so it's weird/rich to hear a Braves fan chide Pittsburgh for that :lol:
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby BleuLineLady on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:07 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:
penny lane wrote::D ding- ^ the female draftnik! ;)


except draftnik had valid points


I dont understand how you can somehow support an owner who has yet to bring you a winning team. If the season continues as is and they continue to improve next year and make the playoffs and do something in the playoffs, then he can have my praise (because I'm sure he's sitting there wondering and waiting when he's going to get my recognition), but until that time, why give a man who has made a lot of money off a fan base with little results any credit whatsoever. Most everything in life is based on results, how is Bob Nutting is exempt from that?
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Re: Official 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates Thread

Postby BleuLineLady on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:26 pm

penny lane wrote::D ding- ^ the female draftnik! ;)


haha well based on everything I just read about the opinions of Draftnik on this board, I dont think that's a compliment lol. I'm just stating an opinion and I enjoy a healthy discussion, not here to ruffle anybody's feathers, which I see some people do towards each other on this board. Lots of internet tough guys. I'm here for the discussion and LGP has always been a fun and easy place to get updates about the Pens and Pirates for somebody who migrated half way across the country away from Pittsburgh and does not get local news. My parents always wonder how I'm up to date on what is going on with the Pittsburgh sports teams, its because of LGP. How about that for a testimonial endorsement? ;)
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