North Korea

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Re: North Korea

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:39 am

Guinness wrote:There are a lot of human beings living in that country.

I hope all of the involved parties on both "sides" keep that in mind.


I completely agree with you re: NK's threat to the US mainland. It's nonexistent. I think it's far more likely that NK provokes SK or Japan.
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Re: North Korea

Postby redwill on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:40 am

newarenanow wrote:Did you do this?

Spoiler:
Image


Haha.

No.

Despite all of the military security and diplomatic stuff, I'm pretty sure I would have been killed.
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Re: North Korea

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:45 am

Reporting live, from the North Korean Missile Lab

Spoiler:
Image
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Re: North Korea

Postby since1970 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:54 am

...can anyone tell me what he gains by doing this ??? Is this just posturing for the citizens of NK ? Look the big bad USA is afraid of us kind of thing ? I can't believe the world will sit idle and allow another lunatic dictator take an unprovoked shot at another country.
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Re: North Korea

Postby newarenanow on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:56 am

since1970 wrote:...can anyone tell me what he gains by doing this ??? Is this just posturing for the citizens of NK ? Look the big bad USA is afraid of us kind of thing ? I can't believe the world will sit idle and allow another lunatic dictator take an unprovoked shot at another country.


1) I read an analysts opinion that in N.Korea (and most asian societies) age = power. Un is only 30 years old (it is believed) so some believe he is pushing his power in order to gain creibility in the eyes of N. Koreans and to show his strength.

2) They are f'ing nuts in the head over there.
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Re: North Korea

Postby since1970 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:03 pm

...can't he just doctor his birth certificate like our President (yes, I made a joke people!!!), or a baseball player from the Dominican Republic ??? I mean he looks 50 if he's a day.......
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Re: North Korea

Postby Geezer on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:05 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:
count2infinity wrote:I honestly think the scariest part of the entire situation is that the citizens of North Korea have no idea what's going on. They've been told they're going to war and seriously think they'll come out the victors. They have absolutely no clue what's up against them if a true war were to break out.


North Korea is definitely the most fascinating authoritarian state in the last 100 years, IMO, primarily because of the incredible isolation of its citizenry. While a similar cult of personality existed with Stalin, the USSR was far too large for the government to effectively keep everyone from hearing from the outside world.

You're not only wrong about the USSR under Stalin but even post Stalin. If you get a chance to watch the Klitshcko (sp) documentary about the Ukranian heavyweight boxers. It's a neat story on many counts but they described what happened when they first visited the U.S. The Klitsckos were flabbergasted by what they saw; they realized they'd been lied to since birth about the U.S. and capitalism. When they went home they tried to tell their parents who didn't believe them. Their dad was a Colonel n the Russian army who was just as stunned when he finally came to this country. I'll get on my soapbox for a second about how crappy their life was even with their dad being a high ranking officer. They showed a building they had grown up in. It made American public housing look like 4 star hotels. What most people under 50 don't realize is that welfare recipients in this country live far better than two worker families in the USSR and other communist countries. End of speech.
I also think that Albania under its long term communist dictator (Hoxta?) was credited as being the most authoritarian state during the last century. Religion was banned, getting caught with black market blue jeans resulted in prison time, all music had to be cleared by governmenr authorities. Albania was a real piece of work.
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Re: North Korea

Postby Michael Scott on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:14 pm

Interesting. The only thing I ever knew about Albania was that it bordered on the Adriatic and its chief export was chrome.
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Re: North Korea

Postby newarenanow on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:25 pm

I read a story about the guy who invented Tetris, and if he was a US citizen, he'd be a millionare. But because he lived in Communist USSR, he got absolutely nothing and lived in a very small apartment while his game blew up all over the world and the government made a crapload.
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Re: North Korea

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:30 pm

A morbid side of me wants North Korea to try to do something, just to see how quickly they would surrender after the world comes crashing down on them.
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Re: North Korea

Postby Rocco on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:31 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:
Rocco wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:
newarenanow wrote:They are just proviking someone to fire at them first. They dont' have the balls to do anything IMO.


That is exactly what they are doing. They want to scare the US enough to strike first, which means China would provide aid per their treaty.


China would likely whistle and look the other way.


I'm sure that US-China diplomats are discussing this like right now lol.


China would take care of NK before we got a chance. If we have to take out NK, then China either has to break its treaty or get its clock cleaned defending a nutjob from a country with no significant resources.
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Re: North Korea

Postby PensFanInDC on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:36 pm

Image
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Re: North Korea

Postby count2infinity on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:43 pm

GUIS! THIS iS SURIOUS!
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Re: North Korea

Postby BigMcK on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:52 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:Image

NK might not have a lot of modern tech but numbers + terrain will make them not easy in a conventional war. 21k artillery pieces, even WWII vintage, is like a crap ton.


Just wondering how are the numbers validated? And how many of those soldiers would be physically capable to fight an extended battle with the poor conditions they are placed under with issues such as malnutrition? I could foresee that the troops would turn on the youngster and remove him from power pretty quickly once casualties started mounting. Especially if China were to not enter the fray.
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Re: North Korea

Postby Rocco on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:54 pm

That chart doesn't list aircraft carriers.
Last edited by Rocco on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: North Korea

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:54 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:If China doesn't back them, wouldn't a conflict would last a couple of hours...however long it took to hit all of their military installations with missiles? Then Martial law for a few months and South Korea absorbing them?


No way man. North Korea has over a million active troops, a navy, more airplanes than SK + US have (until the rest of the USAF and RAF shows up obviously). But the biggest factor is the terrain is absolutely a nightmare. Think Afghanistan style terrain that totally nullifies a lot of the tank warfare advantage. They have 60 years of digging in and tunnels and bunkers. There is zero chance a ground war would only last "hours".

Their air force is a joke. I've seen estimates that their pilots log as little as 15 hours in the air per year. That's a slowish month for a U.S. aviator. The only units that get anything close to a proper amount of training are the ones equipped with newer aircraft, of which the KPAF have fewer than 100.

To that point, bear in mind that nearly half their tactical air assets are Soviet designs or Chinese-built versions of Soviet designs that date back to the 1950s; some of their active duty fighter fleet actually saw combat against U.S. F-86s. Those clowns wouldn't last a week against a single carrier air wing.

PensFanInDC wrote:Image

That's pretty much what this boils down to, imo. There are already reports that the troops that were amassed along the border in underground facilities have already stood down and are reporting back to their normal barracks.
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Re: North Korea

Postby AlexPKeaton on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:59 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Their air force is a joke. I've seen estimates that their pilots log as little as 15 hours in the air per year. That's a slowish month for a U.S. aviator. The only units that get anything close to a proper amount of training are the ones equipped with newer aircraft, of which the KPAF have fewer than 100.

To that point, bear in mind that nearly half their tactical air assets are Soviet designs or Chinese-built versions of Soviet designs that date back to the 1950s; some of their active duty fighter fleet actually saw combat against U.S. F-86s. Those clowns wouldn't last a week against a single carrier air wing.


They would have a significant advantage at the beginning of any war with sheer numbers alone. But that is not the problem, the problem is the terrain. If it was desert like Iraq, North Korea would have been wiped out 20 years ago easily.
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Re: North Korea

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:01 pm

Rocco wrote:That chart doesn't list aircraft carriers.


It also doesn't mention US WMD's
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Re: North Korea

Postby BigMcK on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:09 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Their air force is a joke. I've seen estimates that their pilots log as little as 15 hours in the air per year. That's a slowish month for a U.S. aviator. The only units that get anything close to a proper amount of training are the ones equipped with newer aircraft, of which the KPAF have fewer than 100.

To that point, bear in mind that nearly half their tactical air assets are Soviet designs or Chinese-built versions of Soviet designs that date back to the 1950s; some of their active duty fighter fleet actually saw combat against U.S. F-86s. Those clowns wouldn't last a week against a single carrier air wing.


They would have a significant advantage at the beginning of any war with sheer numbers alone. But that is not the problem, the problem is the terrain. If it was desert like Iraq, North Korea would have been wiped out 20 years ago easily.


Wouldn't sustainability be the issue here for them to survive? Sheer numbers get reduced, and they have no where to turn for replacements. If soldier desertion kicks in, they have no one to back them up and the leader is done.
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Re: North Korea

Postby JS© on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:16 pm

BigMcK wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:
Spoiler:
Image


NK might not have a lot of modern tech but numbers + terrain will make them not easy in a conventional war. 21k artillery pieces, even WWII vintage, is like a crap ton.



Are those our estimates of their arsenal, or is that their advertised numbers?

It's not like his dad was ever known to stretch the truth: http://listverse.com/2010/05/30/top-10- ... m-jong-il/ :pop:
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Re: North Korea

Postby Shyster on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:19 pm

Guinness wrote:DPRK is NO threat to any American living in the United States, including Hawaii.

Agreed. Personally, I think it is ridiculous and unnecessary flame-fanning to treat their blowhard threats as serious. Most likely, this posturing is a way for Kim Junior to solidify his own position by rallying everyone around an enemy that isn’t him. By moving fighters and bombers to South Korea, positioning warships off the coast, etc. we are merely playing right into those plans.

Moreover, North Korea’s claims are not entirely without merit. They’re saying that the United States is targeting them and could attack. Yeah, the United States never gins up reasons to go to war… except maybe for Panama, Grenada, Iraq, and Libya, to name a just a few.
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Re: North Korea

Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:29 pm

Shyster wrote:
Guinness wrote:DPRK is NO threat to any American living in the United States, including Hawaii.

Agreed. Personally, I think it is ridiculous and unnecessary flame-fanning to treat their blowhard threats as serious. Most likely, this posturing is a way for Kim Junior to solidify his own position by rallying everyone around an enemy that isn’t him. By moving fighters and bombers to South Korea, positioning warships off the coast, etc. we are merely playing right into those plans.

Moreover, North Korea’s claims are not entirely without merit. They’re saying that the United States is targeting them and could attack. Yeah, the United States never gins up reasons to go to war… except maybe for Panama, Grenada, Iraq, and Libya, to name a just a few.


What does North Korea have that we would invade over? It's not a strategic port or shipping area like Panama and it has no oil like the mideast.
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Re: North Korea

Postby Shyster on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:36 pm

DelPen wrote:What does North Korea have that we would invade over? It's not a strategic port or shipping area like Panama and it has no oil like the mideast.

Grenada didn’t have those either, yet we invaded them. And the neocons would do doubt claim that we should invade to bring democracy to the North Korean people. If we would never, ever invade North Korea, then why do we hold annual war games with South Korea that include simulated amphibious landings?
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Re: North Korea

Postby BigMcK on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:42 pm

If he decides to put his foot down, all heck is going to break loose...

Spoiler:
Image
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Re: North Korea

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:43 pm

This picture was taken either Monday or Tuesday.

Image

That's Naval Base Coronado with NAS North Island (San Diego) in the background. From left-to-right it shows USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70), USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) and USS Nimitz (CVN 68). Each represents more tactical - and strategic - firepower than the entire KPAF.

USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74) is currently the only aircraft carrier deployed in the Pacific, and as of this week it is on a liberty call to Singapore. If it left today, it could be within 200 miles of Pyongyang by Sunday afternoon.

Terrain? Say hello to my little friend
Image
His name is GBU-57A/B, the Massive Ordnance Penetrator. It's 30,000 pounds worth of don't give a f**k about terrain.

The North Korean air defense network is very similar to the one that was ground to dust in Iraq in 1991, except it's older and has been maintained and 'updated' by North Koreans. (Advantage: U.S.) The Iraqi campaign went on for about six weeks, but the combat effectiveness of the air defenses and that of the air force itself was essentially zero after 36 hours. This represents the last truly hostile potential threat environment for which aircraft like the B-2 and F-22 were designed to exploit. And it should be noted that the F-22 has not yet been 'shot down' in any training scenario that even remotely mimics how the aircraft would be employed in a hot war.
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