NBA player comes out

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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:35 am

slappybrown wrote:This dude I know hates black people but it great with his kids and loves his family and gives to charities. He's still a racist.

The person in shads example is a homophobe IMO. "Disapproving" of ones intrinsic qualities is prejudice. Lets not tiptoe around it.


I just read this post. Did you actually read what I wrote? Homosexuality goes against his Christian beliefs. He doesn't "hate" gays, he doesn't demonstrate against gays, etc etc. You are equating him to someone like David Duke, which is absolutely ridiculous. Most Christians don't think gays are inferior/their brains are smaller/God made a mistake etc.

By your standard, the Pope is homophobic. By this same standard, nearly every bishop, deacon, cardinal, minister, priest, pastor, rabbi, in the world is homophobic.

Does anyone even know what the definition of homophobia is?

An extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.


"Extreme". Is a Christian that thinks homosexuality is sinful, but other than that harbors no ill will towards gay colleagues, friends, etc, an "extreme" person now? I'm sure many of you will apply the "irrational" label to religion as a whole, so there's no point going there.

I'm someone that likes to think I take a libertarian approach to these issues, and I couldn't care less if gays get married, gays get benefits, gays play sports....really, who cares? That being said, I am more than a little uncomfortable with how quickly and aggressively the scarlet letter of "HOMOPHOBIA" and "BIGOTRY" are cast. I like to think that someone who holds a particular set of religious beliefs (not hatred, mind you) is a few steps below someone that goes out and beats up "f****ts" and demonstrates outside of gay bars.

Apparently, there is no middle ground, and you either fully embrace homosexuality and accept it as "right" or you are labeled a bigoted homophobe. That makes me far more uncomfortable than any perceived bigotry.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Troy Loney on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:27 am

I think it could be argued that basing your "disagreement" or however you'd like to term it about homosexuality on religious beliefs is irrational.

A lot of religious beliefs are based on some archaic beliefs and social customs...seems pretty silly to allow those to still dictate culture.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:29 am

It certainly does seem silly to allow them to dictate culture.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:37 am

I kind of figured this would eventually become an indictment of primitive religious folk, so that was expected. I still firmly believe that the word "homophobe" and "bigot" are thrown around far too much at people who might hold a different set of values than we do. I equate those words with hatred, fear, and being a bad person overall.

I think using these terms so broadly cheapens them. Are there racist people out there? Most definitely. But the pejorative "racism" has been so overused in our modern culture that the word itself carries less credibility, IMO, than it did before. I really feel like the bar for being labeled a "homophobe" and being publicly shamed is way, way too low right now.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Troy Loney on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:44 am

So you think religion is a perfectly good reason to disagree with homsexuality? Why should your religion tell you to care what other people do?
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:46 am

If he is specifying "primitive religious folk" rather than trying to argue that we're calling religious people primitive, then I agree. If not, he's being pretty obtuse.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Troy Loney on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:46 am

I am just looking at the definition of homophobia you posted above.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:50 am

Troy Loney wrote:So you think religion is a perfectly good reason to disagree with homsexuality? Why should your religion tell you to care what other people do?


No, I don't think there is anything wrong at all with your religious beliefs telling you that homosexual acts are sinful. If you parlay that into hating homosexuals and being irrationally "afraid" of them, then maybe we are moving into homophobic grounds. Again, to repeat, I fully understand the genetic nature of it. I do.

As far as your religion "telling you to care what other people do", proselytizing and evangelism has been a part of religion since time immemorial. That shouldn't exactly be surprising or unexpected.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Gaucho on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:53 am

shafnutz05 wrote:I kind of figured this would eventually become an indictment of primitive religious folk, so that was expected. I still firmly believe that the word "homophobe" and "bigot" are thrown around far too much at people who might hold a different set of values than we do. I equate those words with hatred, fear, and being a bad person overall.

I think using these terms so broadly cheapens them. Are there racist people out there? Most definitely. But the pejorative "racism" has been so overused in our modern culture that the word itself carries less credibility, IMO, than it did before. I really feel like the bar for being labeled a "homophobe" and being publicly shamed is way, way too low right now.


It seems to me you're trying to create a gray area where none exists. You might argue that some expressions of homophobia are worse than others, but saying it is a "sin" or "unnatural" or disagreeing with the "lifestyle" (even while acknowledging their freedom to live that way) is of course homophobia.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:56 am

I don't see that. Depending on your religion, its a sin. Thats not really a debate. What shaf is saying is that acknowledging that its a sin really has nothing to do with what you think about it. Saying that its a sin does not necessitate(but probably more often than not coincides with) being homophobic.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby count2infinity on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:56 am

Can I just say that I don't agree with the lifestyle of a flat brimmer? The swag lifestyle does not appeal to me and I do not agree with many of the actions that are associated with being a sticker wearing flat brimmer. That being said, I do not actively seek out flat brimmers to tell them to change their lifestyle so that they can become a productive member of society. I do not see flat brimmers on the street and punch them in the face for being a flat brimmer. I don't go near flat brimmer hangouts because, again, that's something that really doesn't appeal to me. I merely do not agree with that particular style of life and many of the associated things that come with being a flat brimmer. Am I a bigot against flat brimmers?
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:03 am

Meh, this isn't worth it. It pains me to see so many good people painted with the "bigot" or "homophobic" brush simply because of their religious convictions, but I suppose this is life in 2013. As happy as I am with how far we've come as a society in terms of civil rights, I grow increasingly uncomfortable with the stark delineation between tolerant, wonderful people and bigoted, hateful people. And as you said, Gaucho, there really is no middle ground.

Take Chris Broussard, for example. I didn't think OTL was really the time or place to do it (and I don't really agree with what he said either) but he stated his religious convictions on TV and was quickly labeled a horrible, disgusting person by the entire social media world. Forget what he did with the 44 years of his life prior to that, as soon as he dared to suggest that he thought homosexuality wasn't ok, his career was dead and he was forever doomed to be labeled a bigoted bastard for what he said. He could have donated $10 million to St. Jude's three months ago and it wouldn't have mattered.

On the other hand, Jason Collins, an NBA nobody, came out as homosexual in Sports Illustrated. He is now enjoying 1000x more fame, recognition, and praise in the last 48 hours than he did in 12 seasons as an NBA player. He has been nearly universally lauded for the utmost courage and bravery it took for him to come out. In our modern political/social climate, which really takes more "bravery"? What Broussard said, or what Collins did?

Carry on, folks
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Gaucho on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:04 am

I think the misunderstanding here is that people automatically associate homophobia with hate. I doesn't necessarily have to entail hate. Still, it is what it is.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby canaan on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:12 am

count2infinity wrote:Can I just say that I don't agree with the lifestyle of a flat brimmer? The swag lifestyle does not appeal to me and I do not agree with many of the actions that are associated with being a sticker wearing flat brimmer. That being said, I do not actively seek out flat brimmers to tell them to change their lifestyle so that they can become a productive member of society. I do not see flat brimmers on the street and punch them in the face for being a flat brimmer. I don't go near flat brimmer hangouts because, again, that's something that really doesn't appeal to me. I merely do not agree with that particular style of life and many of the associated things that come with being a flat brimmer. Am I a bigot against flat brimmers?

bumped for great justice.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Gaucho on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:14 am

Except flat brimming is a choice.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:14 am

count2infinity wrote:Can I just say that I don't agree with the lifestyle of a flat brimmer? The swag lifestyle does not appeal to me and I do not agree with many of the actions that are associated with being a sticker wearing flat brimmer. That being said, I do not actively seek out flat brimmers to tell them to change their lifestyle so that they can become a productive member of society. I do not see flat brimmers on the street and punch them in the face for being a flat brimmer. I don't go near flat brimmer hangouts because, again, that's something that really doesn't appeal to me. I merely do not agree with that particular style of life and many of the associated things that come with being a flat brimmer. Am I a bigot against flat brimmers?


Pfidc band name: flat brimmer bigot
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby count2infinity on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:16 am

Gaucho wrote:Except flat brimming is a choice.


some people are just born with swag...
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby PensFanInDC on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:16 am

obhave wrote:Found out this guy went to Oberlin. How on earth did he get through four years at Oberlin? :shock: I think he goes very far in saying he is not a Christian. Based on that segment on video, he is saying anyone who has had premarital sex, cheated, is gay, has sinned is not a Christian. .


Not totally true. He said anyone who lives an openly sinful lifestyle without believing it is wrong is not a Christian. There is a difference between living an openly unrepentant life and living a life with sin. To quote Paul in Romans 7:15 - "I don’t understand what I do. I don’t do what I want to do. Instead, I do what I hate to do." This is something that is very hard to understand and I don't, in any way, profess that I do. It's something that I meditate on daily as I, as well as all people (Christians included), deal with it every day.

MWB wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:It's one thing to be a Westboro Baptist Church member, it's another to have your own personal beliefs yet still be accepting of others.


This is pretty much the key to all of this. If you're accepting of others then you're not really being bigoted. It's when a person can't accept someone else for who they are that they cross the line to bigotry, IMO.


This is essentially where I stand. I can love someone and not agree with their lifestyle.

MWB wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:I know plenty of people that personally disapprove of homosexuality, but are some of the kindest, most generous people I know (yes, even to the gays they allegedly hate, in your eyes).


This is where things get sketchy to me. If you disapprove of someone, are you really accepting who they are? It's almost like there's a caveat in how you view that person. In the above sentence, if you replace "homosexuality" with "blacks," doesn't that seem off? What is the difference? I'm asking because I'm really trying to figure out how it would be different.


People are not saying they disapprove of someone. They are saying they disagree with their lifestyle. There is a difference IMO.

shafnutz05 wrote:
slappybrown wrote:This dude I know hates black people but it great with his kids and loves his family and gives to charities. He's still a racist.

The person in shads example is a homophobe IMO. "Disapproving" of ones intrinsic qualities is prejudice. Lets not tiptoe around it.


I just read this post. Did you actually read what I wrote? Homosexuality goes against his Christian beliefs. He doesn't "hate" gays, he doesn't demonstrate against gays, etc etc. You are equating him to someone like David Duke, which is absolutely ridiculous. Most Christians don't think gays are inferior/their brains are smaller/God made a mistake etc.

By your standard, the Pope is homophobic. By this same standard, nearly every bishop, deacon, cardinal, minister, priest, pastor, rabbi, in the world is homophobic.

Does anyone even know what the definition of homophobia is?

An extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.


"Extreme". Is a Christian that thinks homosexuality is sinful, but other than that harbors no ill will towards gay colleagues, friends, etc, an "extreme" person now? I'm sure many of you will apply the "irrational" label to religion as a whole, so there's no point going there.

I'm someone that likes to think I take a libertarian approach to these issues, and I couldn't care less if gays get married, gays get benefits, gays play sports....really, who cares? That being said, I am more than a little uncomfortable with how quickly and aggressively the scarlet letter of "HOMOPHOBIA" and "BIGOTRY" are cast. I like to think that someone who holds a particular set of religious beliefs (not hatred, mind you) is a few steps below someone that goes out and beats up "f****ts" and demonstrates outside of gay bars.

Apparently, there is no middle ground, and you either fully embrace homosexuality and accept it as "right" or you are labeled a bigoted homophobe. That makes me far more uncomfortable than any perceived bigotry.


:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


If I hated people who sinned I would have nobody left to love including myself.


I'm sure I will catch flak for this post. It's expected. I don't feel any different toward homosexuals. I don't care if someone is homosexual or not. My family lives next door to a gay couple and they are over at our place all the time. We eat together. They play with my son. It doesn't bother me. They know we are Christians and have not even once asked us about our feelings on homosexuality and I would like to think that is because they see our love for them and they don't care what our views of it are because of it.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby shmenguin on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:45 am

PensFanInDC wrote:People are not saying they disapprove of someone. They are saying they disagree with their lifestyle. There is a difference IMO.


there is definitely a difference, but in this context, both POVs are reprehensible. i know you mean well, and i believe everything you said about treating people with respect and compassion. but like it's been said, this is still no different than disagreeing with someone for being black or disabled. and that doesn't sound good, does it?
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby ulf on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:50 am

lol here we go. I'm very tolerant, just not when you disagree with me :)
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby count2infinity on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:51 am

ulf wrote:lol here we go. I'm very tolerant, just not when you disagree with me :)


Everyone has a right to believe what they want, unless they don't believe what I believe in which case I shall call them names like boogerhead.

Spoiler:
Btw, pfidc, Boogerhead is another quality band name.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby canaan on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:59 am

i have a real problem with people's use of the term "lifestyle" regarding this issue, as it implies a choice.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby PensFanInDC on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:59 am

shmenguin wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:People are not saying they disapprove of someone. They are saying they disagree with their lifestyle. There is a difference IMO.


there is definitely a difference, but in this context, both POVs are reprehensible. i know you mean well, and i believe everything you said about treating people with respect and compassion. but like it's been said, this is still no different than disagreeing with someone for being black or disabled. and that doesn't sound good, does it?


This coming from a man who is intolerant of beer cans on his yard...
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Gaucho on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:59 am

count2infinity wrote:
ulf wrote:lol here we go. I'm very tolerant, just not when you disagree with me :)


Everyone has a right to believe what they want, unless they don't believe what I believe in which case I shall call them names like boogerhead.



Do you not agree that there is a difference between judging people based on their choices as opposed to judging them based on how they were born?

That's really all this is about.
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Re: NBA player comes out

Postby Gaucho on Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:01 am

canaan wrote:i have a real problem with people's use of the term "lifestyle" regarding this issue, as it implies a choice.


True.
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