34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby pfim on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:39 am

redwill wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:This is hyperbole, right? If 20 students do everything asked of them and demonstrate an absolute understanding of the material, only 20% of them pass the class and 2 of them that pass it are still screwed by it?


Maybe it's hyperbole. Nothing wrong with that in an experiment. The point I was trying to make is that some are outraged that there are 34 valedictorians, yet the students presumably did "everything asked of them." Maybe the standards are incredibly low, but no reason to "screw" the students.

The broader idea I had in mind was about capitalist economic theory: The idea is that if everyone strives hard to beat everyone else, then everyone ultimately wins and society is lifted as if by an invisible hand. If that theory holds water, why not try it in the educational arena? Sure, many students will fail in a letter-grade-sense, but they will all ultimately be much better off in the education-sense. Isn't that the point?


I think that's a pretty harsh lesson for children, something they probably don't have the ability to cope with. It seems like the ultimate motivation, but playing Hunger Games with children's education would likely backfire, I would think.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:07 am

I know at my graduation, we all knew who the valedictorian was going to be. I would think after four years of classes you'd be able to point to one kid and say, "him... he was the top student." and be done with it.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby newarenanow on Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:18 am

count2infinity wrote:I know at my graduation, we all knew who the valedictorian was going to be. I would think after four years of classes you'd be able to point to one kid and say, "him... he was the top student." and be done with it.


Yeah, I graduated with a class of like 350+ students, and you knew who the top 2 or 3 students were. They were in a race for the valedictorian. But you easily knew who the top ones were.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby redwill on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:02 pm

pfim wrote:I think that's a pretty harsh lesson for children, something they probably don't have the ability to cope with. It seems like the ultimate motivation, but playing Hunger Games with children's education would likely backfire, I would think.


Well, I proposed that it be a college course, but I'm not opposed to opening the eyes of children to the harsh realities of dog-eat-dog educational capitalism, if the betterment of society is the end result.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:03 pm

newarenanow wrote:
count2infinity wrote:I know at my graduation, we all knew who the valedictorian was going to be. I would think after four years of classes you'd be able to point to one kid and say, "him... he was the top student." and be done with it.


Yeah, I graduated with a class of like 350+ students, and you knew who the top 2 or 3 students were. They were in a race for the valedictorian. But you easily knew who the top ones were.


Lol, we graduated with 700. There were like a hundred kids in my graduating class that I didn't even recognize. Maybe not 100, but easily 50.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby redwill on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:06 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
redwill wrote:Maybe it's part of the problem that people are too caught up in grades = jobs.


Why is that a problem. Oh, you can put effort into doing something you don't want to do. Sounds like you'll actually do the job i'm considering giving you.


I don't get what you're saying. Can you clarify?
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:07 pm

redwill wrote:
pfim wrote:I think that's a pretty harsh lesson for children, something they probably don't have the ability to cope with. It seems like the ultimate motivation, but playing Hunger Games with children's education would likely backfire, I would think.


Well, I proposed that it be a college course, but I'm not opposed to opening the eyes of children to the harsh realities of dog-eat-dog educational capitalism, if the betterment of society is the end result.


In that case, there would be 0 enrollment in that class. Literally. If it were a college, there would be 0 enrollment there. Want to make it free education and then run it that way, that might work. No one is going to pay for a university course and risk doing everything asked of them correctly and having nothing to show for it.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:09 pm

redwill wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
redwill wrote:Maybe it's part of the problem that people are too caught up in grades = jobs.


Why is that a problem. Oh, you can put effort into doing something you don't want to do. Sounds like you'll actually do the job i'm considering giving you.


I don't get what you're saying. Can you clarify?


Should I re-word it? An employer sees that a student gets good grades and has the common sense to know that the student would not enjoy going to school, but put the work in to succeed anyway because it was good for them. That employer then, again using common sense, comes to the conclusion that the student(prospective employee) is willing to put forth effort into doing a job, which is something they are not going to enjoy doing, as means of earning a paycheck.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby DelPen on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:40 pm

count2infinity wrote:I know at my graduation, we all knew who the valedictorian was going to be. I would think after four years of classes you'd be able to point to one kid and say, "him... he was the top student." and be done with it.


We had about 100 people in my class but the person who thought they were the top student was very, very wrong, more like 4th place. For their ego it was best we didn't have one officially named.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:45 pm

Anyone that ties for highest GPA should have to compete against each other in a quiz bowl type event like at the end of Billy Madison. The winner is declared super valedictorian.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby redwill on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:52 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:In that case, there would be 0 enrollment in that class. Literally. If it were a college, there would be 0 enrollment there. Want to make it free education and then run it that way, that might work. No one is going to pay for a university course and risk doing everything asked of them correctly and having nothing to show for it.


I agree with that. I admit that I am troubled by the view of our educational system as one that inevitably leads to mediocrity. I guess my question is: Is it our overwhelming consumerist mentality (education = nothing more than $$$) that leads to that inevitable mediocrity?

If it is, and if we are unwilling to alter that, then why do some people (not you) complain so much?

In any case, is there anything we can do to change it, if it is in fact a problem?
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby redwill on Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:51 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
redwill wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
redwill wrote:Maybe it's part of the problem that people are too caught up in grades = jobs.


Why is that a problem. Oh, you can put effort into doing something you don't want to do. Sounds like you'll actually do the job i'm considering giving you.


I don't get what you're saying. Can you clarify?


Should I re-word it? An employer sees that a student gets good grades and has the common sense to know that the student would not enjoy going to school, but put the work in to succeed anyway because it was good for them. That employer then, again using common sense, comes to the conclusion that the student(prospective employee) is willing to put forth effort into doing a job, which is something they are not going to enjoy doing, as means of earning a paycheck.


I'm still not getting it.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:01 pm

how many people have a job that they do exactly what they want, when they want, and how they want to do it. I'd be willing to bet it's a very small number. As a former teacher, I heard it day after day after day from students.... "why do I have to take *insert class here* it's so boring, I don't want to be there, I'm doing poorly because I just don't care." When you get into the work force, you're not going to be working your dream job (at least not to start) so when getting employed, i'm sure an employer will look at a transcript and say, "hey, this kid did well in every subject, and this kid did well in 2 subjects, okay in 3 and poorly in 2. I'm going to go with the first."
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:02 pm

redwill wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:In that case, there would be 0 enrollment in that class. Literally. If it were a college, there would be 0 enrollment there. Want to make it free education and then run it that way, that might work. No one is going to pay for a university course and risk doing everything asked of them correctly and having nothing to show for it.


I agree with that. I admit that I am troubled by the view of our educational system as one that inevitably leads to mediocrity. I guess my question is: Is it our overwhelming consumerist mentality (education = nothing more than $$$) that leads to that inevitable mediocrity?

If it is, and if we are unwilling to alter that, then why do some people (not you) complain so much?

In any case, is there anything we can do to change it, if it is in fact a problem?


I have no solution, but there is definitely a problem. I think the the step of going from no GED to having a GED is probably more difficult than getting a 4 year degree at this point, which kind of defeats the purpose of going to a University...except for the fact that for certain jobs that 4 year degree is still a requisite. I'm glad to be at a point where pretty much anywhere I try to go can just be reached with more experience rather than returning to school, but I dread my theoretical kids going through the education system.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

count2infinity wrote:how many people have a job that they do exactly what they want, when they want, and how they want to do it. I'd be willing to bet it's a very small number. As a former teacher, I heard it day after day after day from students.... "why do I have to take *insert class here* it's so boring, I don't want to be there, I'm doing poorly because I just don't care." When you get into the work force, you're not going to be working your dream job (at least not to start) so when getting employed, i'm sure an employer will look at a transcript and say, "hey, this kid did well in every subject, and this kid did well in 2 subjects, okay in 3 and poorly in 2. I'm going to go with the first."


I'm glad to know that someone can understand what i'm saying. Still not convinced that i'm not the problem in this line of communication though. :scared:
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby redwill on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:11 pm

count2infinity wrote:how many people have a job that they do exactly what they want, when they want, and how they want to do it. I'd be willing to bet it's a very small number. As a former teacher, I heard it day after day after day from students.... "why do I have to take *insert class here* it's so boring, I don't want to be there, I'm doing poorly because I just don't care." When you get into the work force, you're not going to be working your dream job (at least not to start) so when getting employed, i'm sure an employer will look at a transcript and say, "hey, this kid did well in every subject, and this kid did well in 2 subjects, okay in 3 and poorly in 2. I'm going to go with the first."


Who is saying that people should "have a job that they do exactly what they want, when they want, and how they want to do it"?

Where is that from? That's crazy. Nobody is saying that, as far as I know.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:13 pm

I'm not saying people ever will have that sort of job and thus the need to find an individual that is WILLING and has shown in the past (i.e. performing when it comes to grades) that (s)he is ABLE to do work that they don't really have an interest in doing or want to do. I really think you're misinterpreting everything that I40 and I are saying.
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Re: 34 valedictorians?!!? 1 School

Postby redwill on Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:37 pm

count2infinity wrote:I really think you're misinterpreting everything that I40 and I are saying.


Apparently so. Oh well.
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