A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby slappybrown on Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:13 pm

Lol

Walt had multiple opportunities to get out and be good to go in terms of providing for his family. He said it himself -- he was in the Empire building business. By the end of season 3 or so it's hard to justify what he's doing as primarily for his family as opposed to primarily for his own satisfaction.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby the wicked child on Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:10 pm

I think Walt starts out with the intention of helping his family... but once he finds that he's good at it, his ego gets the best of him and uses his family as his excuse as to why he's doing it. It is all about Walt, no more no less. Whoever gets in the way gets dealt with.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:31 am

Sarcastic wrote:He was like a God figure. Absolutely. Smarter than everyone else. And the further it went, the bigger he got. I am not saying he was an angelic savior. He clearly got ruthless when he felt he had to, but I always found sympathy for him because I think things he did were out of necessity. I don't recall him killing some of those people you mention. If you could refresh my mind.

Walt - by direct action or influence - was responsible for 198 deaths in two years covered by the show's universe.

He was no more a hero than Michael Corleone.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:44 am

tifosi77 wrote:He was no more a hero than Michael Corleone.


but he got a hero's send off. which didn't make any sense. i wonder if the finale was all gilligan or if he was making a concession to AMC or to cranston himself (who would have probably been bummed if walt got the ending he deserved).
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:53 pm

You have a messed up notion of heroic if that's what you think of his demise. :lol:

WW was very much the tragic hero, in the Aristotelian sense, but I do not think that is the context you mean.

Settling personal scores and making the in-the-moment decision to not kill Jesse does not really offset that he died estranged from his family having witnessed his brother-in-law's murder at the hand of his business partner. He was a ruined shell of a man who accidentally shot himself with his own car gun. That's not 'heroic'.

If that hadn't happened, if he hadn't been felled by his own ingenuity, do you think he would have purposefully taken his own life? Do you think he would have sat there in the compound and waited for the police to show up? What was the endgame he was planning? Because taking a round from the M60 was not in the gameplan for that night.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby count2infinity on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:05 pm

tifosi77 wrote:If that hadn't happened, if he hadn't been felled by his own ingenuity, do you think he would have purposefully taken his own life? Do you think he would have sat there in the compound and waited for the police to show up? What was the endgame he was planning? Because taking a round from the M60 was not in the gameplan for that night.


That's actually a really good question. He had no money left. No family left. No friends left. What would he have done? Surrendered to the cops, I'd guess. Get his story out there? Write a book about his story and make even more money to give to his family, whether they wanted it or not? Kill himself? Just rot in jail and wait for the cancer to take his life? It's something I never really thought about until now.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:17 pm

I don't think writing a book to get his story out there would be tenable; NM has a 'son of Sam' law that prohibits criminals from profiting from the exploitation of their criminal escapades via media. (Books, movies, TV shows, etc) He could maybe write the book while in custody and get it out there, pending conviction.

He did not strike me as the suicide type, so I really don't know what his plan was. Maybe he simply didn't expect the car gun trick to work so well and went in fully believing he was going to die. But that's an odd plan.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby PensFanInDC on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:19 pm

I think he seemed almost relieved that he was hit by the M60.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby itissteeltime on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:22 pm

I think he planned on going down that night. I think he wanted Jesse to kill him, and if not, I think he would have shot himself.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby PensFanInDC on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:24 pm

itissteeltime wrote:I think he planned on going down that night. I think he wanted Jesse to kill him, and if not, I think he would have shot himself.


Yes to the first part. I believe Walt was sure Jesse would kill him. Walt had too much pride to kill himself (on purpose). He would have surrendered IMO. Although, would his pride be able to deal with being broadcast all over the country as a frail little man?
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:26 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Settling personal scores and making the in-the-moment decision to not kill Jesse does not really offset that he died estranged from his family having witnessed his brother-in-law's murder at the hand of his business partner. He was a ruined shell of a man who accidentally shot himself with his own car gun. That's not 'heroic'.


walt was given everything he wanted (within the realm of extreme possibility) in the finale. he got back to new mexico, said goodbye to his daughter, achieved closure with his wife, financially took care of his son, freed jesse, got revenge against the nazis and eliminated all loose threads that would threaten his family. hell....even marie seemed downright chipper on the phone. he also got to die before suffering any further indignities and had a freaking smile on his face while he was at it. and the closing shot was this peaceful representation of his soul's ascent into a higher plain. so i don't know if that makes him a "hero" or not, but there was no ambiguity on how they wanted us to feel about walt in that episode. and it wasn't consistent with the prior 40-50 episodes or whatever. and i don't think you were supposed to watch that and think, "He was a ruined shell of a man who accidentally shot himself with his own car gun."

you're right, there are countless residual s*** storms left behind by heisenberg, but they weren't represented fairly in the finale. if we're being real...jesse is in prison, skyler doesn't hear him out and certainly doesn't let him see their daughter, marie is in a deep dark depression, and that money never gets into junior's hands. and this is "being real" within the framework of the BB universe. it was a big cop out. and it bugs me more and more as time passes.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby itissteeltime on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:27 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:
itissteeltime wrote:I think he planned on going down that night. I think he wanted Jesse to kill him, and if not, I think he would have shot himself.


Yes to the first part. I believe Walt was sure Jesse would kill him. Walt had too much pride to kill himself (on purpose). He would have surrendered IMO. Although, would his pride be able to deal with being broadcast all over the country as a frail little man?


Yeah, I think he has too much pride to be arrested by the cops and sit in jail.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby count2infinity on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:30 pm

actually the more i think about it, the more I think he would have waited for the cops to get there, draw a gun on them with no intention of shooting, but having them shoot him.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:33 pm

count2infinity wrote:actually the more i think about it, the more I think he would have waited for the cops to get there, draw a gun on them with no intention of shooting, but having them shoot him.


if gran torino was never a thing, i could see this being the ending that would have happened.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby count2infinity on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:35 pm

shmenguin wrote:
count2infinity wrote:actually the more i think about it, the more I think he would have waited for the cops to get there, draw a gun on them with no intention of shooting, but having them shoot him.


if gran torino was never a thing, i could see this being the ending that would have happened.


ahhh, yes. I knew I have seen that ending before. Was wracking my brain to try to remember where I've seen it.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:44 pm

Gran Torino...... that was a cop out ending.

shmenguin wrote:if we're being real...jesse is in prison, skyler doesn't hear him out and certainly doesn't let him see their daughter, marie is in a deep dark depression, and that money never gets into junior's hands.

As time goes on, I'm more receptive to the theory that Walt actually died in the car in New Hampshire and everything that happens from the moment he finds the keys on to his final breath was a fantasy. Everything went his way and was uncomplicated.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby shmenguin on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:51 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Gran Torino...... that was a cop out ending.

shmenguin wrote:if we're being real...jesse is in prison, skyler doesn't hear him out and certainly doesn't let him see their daughter, marie is in a deep dark depression, and that money never gets into junior's hands.

As time goes on, I'm more receptive to the theory that Walt actually died in the car in New Hampshire and everything that happens from the moment he finds the keys on to his final breath was a fantasy. Everything went his way and was uncomplicated.


i'm a huge fan of that theory...though there are a couple issues.

1) the flash-forward from season 5, episode 1 happens after his last moments in the car
2) gilligan's been pretty adamant in his denial of this premise

neither issue is a deal breaker...with #1, you can take those sorts of liberties with story telling. it's not neat and tidy, but it's not a big deal either. with #2, i think gilligan has a lot of respect for AMC and the people he works with. it would be kind of a slam to tell the world that the finale that they saw isn't really what he wanted.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby PensFanInDC on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:55 pm

I never thought Gran Torino would be spoiled in the BB thread. Sonofa...
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:15 pm

You don't get to feel aggrieved for having the ending to a five-year old movie spoiled. :lol:
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:18 pm

shmenguin wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Gran Torino...... that was a cop out ending.

shmenguin wrote:if we're being real...jesse is in prison, skyler doesn't hear him out and certainly doesn't let him see their daughter, marie is in a deep dark depression, and that money never gets into junior's hands.

As time goes on, I'm more receptive to the theory that Walt actually died in the car in New Hampshire and everything that happens from the moment he finds the keys on to his final breath was a fantasy. Everything went his way and was uncomplicated.


i'm a huge fan of that theory...though there are a couple issues.

1) the flash-forward from season 5, episode 1 happens after his last moments in the car
2) gilligan's been pretty adamant in his denial of this premise

neither issue is a deal breaker...with #1, you can take those sorts of liberties with story telling. it's not neat and tidy, but it's not a big deal either. with #2, i think gilligan has a lot of respect for AMC and the people he works with. it would be kind of a slam to tell the world that the finale that they saw isn't really what he wanted.

Oh, I don't think the fantasy theory is what Gilligan intended. Not at all. I just really think that for the story to have worked out the way it did, the fantasy theory is really the only way to have all those points fall into place.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:09 pm

count2infinity wrote:I'm not necessarily saying that he shouldn't have gotten into the drug business. I understand that's the entire premise of the show, but initially he calculated exactly how much he needed to keep his family set for after he's gone. If memory serves that number was well under a million dollars (it was around $350,00 I think). Why did he need to continue after he made his first few million? Why did he press to become top dog? It was his pride, his ego, all the bad features of Walt that caused him to be a bad person. I understand that Fring was a bad guy, that's not the argument I'm trying to make. You make the assertion that Walt is a good guy and did everything for his family. Sure, that's how it started, but Walt himself admitted that it's not what kept him going. Obviously all the characters on the drug side of things in this series are bad people but to say "Jesse is the bad guy in all of it and Walter is like the loving dad that's going nuts trying to save him." Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.


His business started rolling. You wouldn't stop either. I have no problem with Walt expanding it to make more money.

I put Walt and Jesse on the same level as far as the criminal activity, and I have a big issue with Jessie blaming Walt for everything that happened. It makes me dislike Jessie. Jessie even threatened to, what, burn Walt's house with his wife and kids in it? Jesse was so irrational toward the end because of the drugs and just him going bananas (emotionally), I don't know how the guy had any fans left. I talked to a couple people who were really rooting for him, felt like he was a victim. I thought they were crazy.
Last edited by Sarcastic on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:24 pm

slappybrown wrote:Walt had multiple opportunities to get out and be good to go in terms of providing for his family. He said it himself -- he was in the Empire building business. By the end of season 3 or so it's hard to justify what he's doing as primarily for his family as opposed to primarily for his own satisfaction.


I have no problem with Walt growing his 'business'. Listen, if stupid people want to smoke meth, a guy like Walt will take advantage of it. Walt didn't smoke. Even with that, it doesn't necessarily make Walt a bad guy. What did Walt in were Jesse and Skyler and Hank going crazy toward the end, each for their reason, but all with extreme emotional issues with maybe only Skyler having a reason to actually blame Walt somewhat.

Seemed like everything was worked out for a happy ending, then all of a sudden Hank and Jesse get together, each with their selfish reason, and try to bring him down. Hank wouldn't even talk to Walt. You would think, being family, he'd at least want to sit down and talk about everything that occurred the last few years. No. I didn't like Hank the previous season already, as he was starting to go nuts then (being mean to his wife and all). I still don't know why Jesse was angry with Walt, but as I said I just felt he's been crazy last two seasons. Skyler went totally bananas. Really, Walt seemed sane compared to those three.

When I think about it, it were the writers who did Walt in (lol), by making characters who initially were likable and reasonable into irrational lunatics.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:29 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:He was like a God figure. Absolutely. Smarter than everyone else. And the further it went, the bigger he got. I am not saying he was an angelic savior. He clearly got ruthless when he felt he had to, but I always found sympathy for him because I think things he did were out of necessity. I don't recall him killing some of those people you mention. If you could refresh my mind.

Walt - by direct action or influence - was responsible for 198 deaths in two years covered by the show's universe.

He was no more a hero than Michael Corleone.


Out of those, how many were good guys and how many died due to some unfortunate circumstance (the boy on the bike)? I have no problem with the high number here... we're talking gang warfare.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby Sarcastic on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:47 pm

tifosi77 wrote:You have a messed up notion of heroic if that's what you think of his demise. :lol:

WW was very much the tragic hero, in the Aristotelian sense, but I do not think that is the context you mean.

Settling personal scores and making the in-the-moment decision to not kill Jesse does not really offset that he died estranged from his family having witnessed his brother-in-law's murder at the hand of his business partner. He was a ruined shell of a man who accidentally shot himself with his own car gun. That's not 'heroic'.

If that hadn't happened, if he hadn't been felled by his own ingenuity, do you think he would have purposefully taken his own life? Do you think he would have sat there in the compound and waited for the police to show up? What was the endgame he was planning? Because taking a round from the M60 was not in the gameplan for that night.


Tragic character, yes. A hero who did everything he could for his family, also yes. Sure, maybe he overstayed his welcome in the drug business, but I don't see how that makes him a bad guy. Maybe 'hero' isn't the right word, but he certainly wasn't some bloody criminal who did things for pleasure.

He was estranged from his family because his wife went bonkers. That's it. I felt they ruined her character. She was so hated by the fans, she was being called a 'beach' on her twitter. Show's writers went too far with trying to make her suffer with this fear she had and certainly her behavior. No matter how much Walt loved her, she pushed him away. I put Walt's family situation on Skyler, or rather what the writers did to her character. I guess they wanted more drama and overdid it.

Now that the show's over and I look back, I find some issues with where the show went after the great start it had. I don't quiet like that.

Walt shot himself because he had no other option at that point. He had no one to turn to but I already talked about how I feel about people closest to him in an above post.
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Re: A little late, but... Breaking Bad???

Postby Staggy on Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:00 pm

Walt directly ruined Hank and Marie's lives. Even if he didn't end up getting Hank killed, he would have at the very least got him fired and likely exhiled from any law enforcement agency. I can understand not viewing Jesse sympathetically but I don't get calling Hank selfish. He butchered just about every aspect of his investigation but I think he was always doing it for the right reasons.

And Skyler went bonkers because the man she loved assumed she'd be more happy with some cash and knowing her husband is a murderous drug lord rather then spending his remaining time with her and their children creating memories and a reputation that they can cherish, not be ashamed of.
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