Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:44 pm

Yes, they'd be in much better shape going forward with Lewis and Allen as the corners.

As for the actual on field product, do you really think Polamalu and clark combined for anything above replacement level player production last year?

The secondary wouldn't have been any worse with two plug ins back there and lewis at corner.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:47 pm

Really? Is that real?
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:55 pm

I believe that it is.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:57 pm

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

19th ranked secondary.

Clark and Taylor had to have rated out as some of the worst performers last year. If you replaced those two with Lewis and anybody, they're better. So it just depends on how much you think Polamalu would swing that performance arc. Do you really think that his performance swings this discussion so much that i'm making an outrageous assertion?
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Crankshaft on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:57 pm

I agree that they should have done more to keep Keenan Lewis, but at the time all three of those players were productive.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Rocco on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:59 pm

Troy Loney wrote:Doesn't change prior mistakes.

I think the 2013 secondary says it all. Taylor, Clark and Polamalu all retained, Keenan Lewis walks. They would have been better off with Lewis and 3 rookies.


Which rookies?
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:59 pm

The trib published some rather informative, albeit incomplete analysis from pro football focus about the performance of every stiller that took a snap.

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/5452299-74/minus-plus-defense#axzz2vakMC5zP

Clark and shoeless ike were labled "minus" and polamalu a high plus.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby ulf on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:02 pm

Polamalu had a very good year
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:02 pm

Troy Loney wrote:http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

19th ranked secondary.

Clark and Taylor had to have rated out as some of the worst performers last year. If you replaced those two with Lewis and anybody, they're better. So it just depends on how much you think Polamalu would swing that performance arc. Do you really think that his performance swings this discussion so much that i'm making an outrageous assertion?


the differential between troy and replacement would be much larger than any value gained from retaining lewis over CB replacement. clark may have been a minus but shamarknado would have been a minus minus
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Rocco on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:04 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:The trib published some rather informative, albeit incomplete analysis from pro football focus about the performance of every stiller that took a snap.

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/5452299-74/minus-plus-defense#axzz2vakMC5zP

Clark and shoeless ike were labled "minus" and polamalu a high plus.


Pro Football Focus also once said Willie Colon was good and that 2007 Randy Moss wasn't even the best receiver in 2007. Let's just say I'm skeptical of their grading, even though they probably aren't wrong about Ike/Clark. Here's the thing though- Clark's gone and not coming back. Ike's taking a pay cut or he's not coming back. They've dumped a lot of older vets on defense over the last two seasons. They are rebuilding, but no one seems to think of it as rebuilding because they're trying to avoid bottoming out completely while they still have a top-tier QB. There's nothing that says you have to cut everyone at once and can't rebuild piecemeal.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:04 pm

Troy Loney wrote:http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

19th ranked secondary.

Clark and Taylor had to have rated out as some of the worst performers last year. If you replaced those two with Lewis and anybody, they're better. So it just depends on how much you think Polamalu would swing that performance arc. Do you really think that his performance swings this discussion so much that i'm making an outrageous assertion?


I think its a pretty outrageous assertion.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Rocco on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:04 pm

Letang Is The Truth wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

19th ranked secondary.

Clark and Taylor had to have rated out as some of the worst performers last year. If you replaced those two with Lewis and anybody, they're better. So it just depends on how much you think Polamalu would swing that performance arc. Do you really think that his performance swings this discussion so much that i'm making an outrageous assertion?


the differential between troy and replacement would be much larger than any value gained from retaining lewis over CB replacement. clark may have been a minus but shamarknado would have been a minus minus


As annoyed as I was about Lewis, everything I've read says he wasn't coming back anyway.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:05 pm

I think the ultimate scenario would have been if Colbert cut Taylor and Clark to make room for Lewis. That's obvioulsy with the power of hindsight, but would it really have taken some massive clairvoyance to realize that Clark and Taylor weren't worth keeping around?
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Crankshaft on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:07 pm

Wasn't Clark coming off of a Pro Bowl year and Ike Taylor SHOULD have went to the Pro Bowl, if only he held on to a few more INTs?
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Rocco on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:12 pm

Troy Loney wrote:I think the ultimate scenario would have been if Colbert cut Taylor and Clark to make room for Lewis. That's obvioulsy with the power of hindsight, but would it really have taken some massive clairvoyance to realize that Clark and Taylor weren't worth keeping around?


Advanced stats from Football Outsiders incoming. I don't have the Almanac handy on my work computer so this is from the player pages.

Ike Taylor:

Image
Image

Keenan Lewis:

Image
Image

Both of them were solid in 2012, with the differences being 1) Ike was better in 2011 while Lewis struggled and 2) Ike was banged up in 2011 and missed games while Lewis would limp out of games but didn't miss as much time. Ike fell off the cliff last year- those stats aren't out yet.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:21 pm

Wouldn't those stats indicate pretty clearly that one guy was on a decline and the other rising?

I feel like Keenan's career trajectory was very similar to Ike's at the beginning. Raw mid round pick that took several years to develop. I guess the Steeler's had always been known for letting guys go at the right time and keeping the young guys they develop. You can't say that anymore.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby ulf on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:22 pm

But I thought they sucked at drafting after the first couple rounds :pop:
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:25 pm

how can you say he was declining when he went up one year?

edit: need more an N of 3 to say declining
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby ulf on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:33 pm

I just find it ironic to bash the drafting but complain when they walk. The drafting hasn't been as great as it used to be, but they got Lewis, Vince Williams, Cortez Allen, Antonio Brown, Shamarko (jury's out), Worilds, it's been adequate.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Crankshaft on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:39 pm

Troy, are you a Steelers fan minus Ben Roethilisberger?
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby columbia on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:41 pm

Crankshaft wrote:Troy, are you a Steelers fan minus Ben Roethilisberger?


Above all, he's a Tim Williams fan.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Dickie Dunn on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:55 pm

Rocco wrote:
Letang Is The Truth wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

19th ranked secondary.

Clark and Taylor had to have rated out as some of the worst performers last year. If you replaced those two with Lewis and anybody, they're better. So it just depends on how much you think Polamalu would swing that performance arc. Do you really think that his performance swings this discussion so much that i'm making an outrageous assertion?


the differential between troy and replacement would be much larger than any value gained from retaining lewis over CB replacement. clark may have been a minus but shamarknado would have been a minus minus


As annoyed as I was about Lewis, everything I've read says he wasn't coming back anyway.


Lewis took a not huge deal to go home. He wasn't coming back no matter what the Steelers did.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:56 pm

It seems to this gentleman that troy loney believes that teams should be in one of two phases: Contending for championships or blowing it all up and starting over
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:58 pm

I don't think Taylor is done. Certainly on the downside, but still a very capable corner. better than replacement. I'm not surprised that TL wants him gone though given the burn and purge outlook he has on the Steelers.
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Re: Official 2013-2014 Pittsburgh Steelers Thread

Postby Rocco on Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:01 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:It seems to this gentleman that troy loney believes that teams should be in one of two phases: Contending for championships or blowing it all up and starting over


The teams willing to blow it up and start over generally are teams that don't have a quality QB. When you actually have one of those the incentive to blow everything up goes way down. The Colts are the only team I can think of off the top of my head that blew it up and started over when they had a QB and nothing about their situation was normal.
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