Biker attack

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Re: Biker attack

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:57 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Why would bicyclists be riding on the highway in the first place? Isn't that illegal (unless it's only an Ohio thing that bikers aren't allowed on the highway)?

Generally, unless otherwise posted, only Interstates are "off limits".

Until 1992 it was technically legal to ride through the Liberty Tubes (From what I understand, because it wasn't posted), although it would have been pure suicide to do so.

I have a friend who used to ride from Birdland in Scott Twp to Pitt for classes, he'd race down Rt 19 and head into the tubes at fullspeed (Aprox 25 -30 Mph). I always thought he was completely crazy for doing so.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:59 pm

count2infinity wrote:
blackjack68 wrote:
count2infinity wrote:sounds like a stand-up dude...


Not any more.

Spoiler:
Too soon?


:lol:

ExPatriatePen wrote: It's so they don't get forced off the road by a road raging, too fat to ride, motorist.


Now who is being self-righteous??? lol


I am, on this issue, no question about it. But I do have to say that when I'm face to face with people and this issue comes up, you pretty much know what side they're going to be on by estimating their BFI.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:01 pm

Dante actually had a 10th circle of hell. It was just for cyclists. His publisher told him to remove it from the book because that was too good a fate.

:P

ExPatriatePen wrote:Which ones of you NEVER jaywalk?

Why is that different?

I think the biggest difference, at least here in CA, is that cyclists are expected to follow the same road laws as motor vehicles. Pedestrians, perhaps unsurprisingly, are not. And as I sit here typing this, I cannot recall a single instance in 15 years of living in CA where I've seen cyclists observing said laws reliably, especially when they are riding in large groups. The gaggles can be absolutely enormous; it's not uncommon to see groups of 40-50 riders at the coast on nice days. Not a one of them stops at posted signs. I've even seen them passing cars on both sides of the vehicle within a single lane.

Plus, I don't know of anyone who has ever been killed when struck by a jaywalking pedestrian.

And I would also point out that I see far far fewer jaywalking incidents than I do scofflaw cyclists. I know jaywalking is pretty commonplace back East, but it's just not really that big a thing out here.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:01 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Shyster wrote:I must say, I think a civil suit would have some really interesting legal issues. The way this incident unfolded reads like a law-school torts exam (which are famous for describing bizarre incidents the student has to legally untangle). If one is being attacked by a group, would the legitimate use of self-defense extend to force used (perhaps unintentionally) on someone who by all accounts is a member of the group, but is also apparently not actively participating in the attack? That’s a really good one.


Couldn't you also say that the guy who got hit/paralyzed should never have been there in the first place, and by just being there was already violating multiple laws by driving without a license, etc.?


Good points.

But wouldn't the act of parking your vehicle in front of the SUV, dismounting, and approaching the driver be considered "Participating"?
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Re: Biker attack

Postby DelPen on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:03 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
DelPen wrote:If you are bicyclist Pedestrian and cry about sharing the road but Jaywalk. ignore the traffic laws like stop signs and lights then you deserve to get run over.

FIFY


You are fairly alone here thinking you are above traffic laws.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:05 pm

DelPen wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
DelPen wrote:If you are bicyclist Pedestrian and cry about sharing the road but Jaywalk. ignore the traffic laws like stop signs and lights then you deserve to get run over.

FIFY


You are fairly alone here thinking you are above traffic laws.


ExPatriatePen wrote:It probably angers the drivers who are stopped at the light, and it's illegal (just like jaywalking), so if I get caught, I EXPECT to get a ticket.


Did you miss that?

Edit: Plus, I feel compelled to add, you seem to be the only one who believes that someone "deserves to get run over" for riding a bicycle.
Last edited by ExPatriatePen on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby Shyster on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:06 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:But wouldn't the act of parking your vehicle in front of the SUV, dismounting, and approaching the driver be considered "Participating"?

His family claims he dismounted only to assist the rider who was struck. Although considering his family also says that he’s in a coma, that raises the question of how they would know that in the first place.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby DudeMan2766 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:07 pm

Question: Did this whole argument start over offense taken by the use of the term "bikers" even tho it was explained why that general wording was being used for this discussions sake?
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Re: Biker attack

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:08 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Shyster wrote:I must say, I think a civil suit would have some really interesting legal issues. The way this incident unfolded reads like a law-school torts exam (which are famous for describing bizarre incidents the student has to legally untangle). If one is being attacked by a group, would the legitimate use of self-defense extend to force used (perhaps unintentionally) on someone who by all accounts is a member of the group, but is also apparently not actively participating in the attack? That’s a really good one.


Couldn't you also say that the guy who got hit/paralyzed should never have been there in the first place, and by just being there was already violating multiple laws by driving without a license, etc.?


Still interested in a lawyer's opinion on this, unless you're getting around to it, Shyster.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:10 pm

DudeMan2766 wrote:Question: Did this whole argument start over offense taken by the use of the term "bikers" even tho it was explained why that general wording was being used for this discussions sake?

This thread has taken so many twists and turns that I think it's hard to understand where it went wrong. :pop:

It's actually three different threads IMHO:

1) The horrible event in NYC with the gang of thugs on two wheels.
2) The discussion of whether or not they're to be considered "Bikers" or "What is a 'Biker'"
3) Another discussion, (We've had many), about those horrible individuals who ride self propelled two wheeled machines.

Take yer pick :)
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Re: Biker attack

Postby DudeMan2766 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:13 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
DudeMan2766 wrote:Question: Did this whole argument start over offense taken by the use of the term "bikers" even tho it was explained why that general wording was being used for this discussions sake?

This thread has taken so many twists and turns that I think it's hard to understand where it went wrong. :pop:

It's actually three different threads IMHO:

1) The horrible event in NYC with the gang of thugs on two wheels.
2) The discussion of whether or not they're to be considered "Bikers" or "What is a 'Biker'"
3) Another discussion, (We've had many), about those horrible individuals who ride self propelled two wheeled machines.

Take yer pick :)



I'll just keep the money and sit down, Wink
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Re: Biker attack

Postby Shyster on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:32 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Still interested in a lawyer's opinion on this, unless you're getting around to it, Shyster.

There’s a concept called negligence per se, which applies when someone violates a criminal law. It’s considered evidence that someone acted negligently in a civil suit. I’m not sure whether it would apply to this situation, though, because the SUV driver would actually want to argue it as a form of contributory negligence (namely, negligence on the part of the plaintiff that bars his own case or reduces the damages he can get). It’s usually the plaintiff arguing negligence per se on the part of the defendant, not the other way around.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:41 pm

Shyster wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Still interested in a lawyer's opinion on this, unless you're getting around to it, Shyster.

There’s a concept called negligence per se, which applies when someone violates a criminal law. It’s considered evidence that someone acted negligently in a civil suit. I’m not sure whether it would apply to this situation, though, because the SUV driver would actually want to argue it as a form of contributory negligence (namely, negligence on the part of the plaintiff that bars his own case or reduces the damages he can get). It’s usually the plaintiff arguing negligence per se on the part of the defendant, not the other way around.


But the defendant can argue that the guy shouldn't have been there in the first place due to the expired license?
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Re: Biker attack

Postby Jim on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:45 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:So, a question for the people that complain about cyclist slowing down and not taking their feet off of the pedals at a red light:

Which ones of you NEVER jaywalk?

Why is that different?

I have to admit, when I'm in a car, I observe all red lights. Not so much as a pedestrian.

Bicycle? I'll slow down to an almost standstill, make sure that there's no cross traffic, but rather than pulling my feet out of the "clipless pedals", if there's no cross traffic, I'll dart across the intersection against the light.

It probably angers the drivers who are stopped at the light, and it's illegal (just like jaywalking), so if I get caught, I EXPECT to get a ticket.

I'm just not getting why the level of self-righteousness is so high when ya'll jaywalk across the same street.


Darting across the intersection when nothing is coming is no big deal to me. Heck, I want to do that in my truck. I hate sitting at a light when nothing is coming. The problem is the smacktards that blow stop signs and light when stuff IS coming. The problem is the goofs that weave through lanes of traffic with no fear or respect (to the fact that they could be hit). Then they just yell "I have the right to ride on the road"... you also have the right to end up as a red smear on said road because someone didn't see your showboating butt flying in and out all over the place.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby Jim on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:48 pm

DelPen wrote:If you are bicyclist and cry about sharing the road but ignore the traffic laws like stop signs and lights then you deserve to get run over.


Deserve is strong... "run a strong risk of" or "have no grounds to complain if you"
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Re: Biker attack

Postby shmenguin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:48 pm

Troy Loney wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:I'm just not getting why the level of self-righteousness is so high when ya'll jaywalk across the same street.


Yeah, that's exactly my line of thinking, glad you share that sentiment. I wasn't interested to hear peoples' bogus reasoning for why it's different for a bike than a pedestrian.


it must have been a fun 5 seconds for you guys before this argument was completely obliterated.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby Jim on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:53 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
llipgh2 wrote:
DelPen wrote:If you are bicyclist and cry about sharing the road but ignore the traffic laws like stop signs and lights then you deserve to get run over.


I HATE how bicyclists ride on the sidewalk. I have almost been hit on the sidewalk numerous times by bikers who suddenly zip out from behind me. Since my injury, I've actually yelled at riders for doing this.

Unless you are a child, ride in the street or don't ride at all.

I actually agree with this.

I will say though that there's a reason bicyclists ride out three feet from the edge of a highway. It's so they don't get forced off the road by a road raging, too fat to ride, motorist. If youve ever been on a road bike with those thin tires and been forced onto the soft shoulder at 25 mph, you'll know that it's no fun to be pitched over the handlebars.

On a climb, sure, I hug the white line. But at 25mph or more on a downhill with no shoulder, sorry, you'l have to share the road a bit. I'm not taking the chance that you'll hit me with your sport mirror or send me sprawling down the highway.



"to fat to ride motorist" Sorry, but that is pathetic.

You might go 25, but around Shadyside, Oakland, Downtown, Southside you are lucky to see anyone doing 15. 10-12 is most common. I do not care what you are operating (bike, car, truck, tank) if you are doing 12 mph in a 35 I am going to be annoyed.

And... if you admit that your bike itself is so dangerous, not counting the other vehicles on the road... this is where the smart part comes into play... dont ride it there. BING. Not rocket science.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby Shyster on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:54 pm

MRandall25 wrote:But the defendant can argue that the guy shouldn't have been there in the first place due to the expired license?

I think so, yes. Maybe.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby Jim on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:56 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Why would bicyclists be riding on the highway in the first place? Isn't that illegal (unless it's only an Ohio thing that bikers aren't allowed on the highway)?

Generally, unless otherwise posted, only Interstates are "off limits".

Until 1992 it was technically legal to ride through the Liberty Tubes (From what I understand, because it wasn't posted), although it would have been pure suicide to do so.

I have a friend who used to ride from Birdland in Scott Twp to Pitt for classes, he'd race down Rt 19 and head into the tubes at fullspeed (Aprox 25 -30 Mph). I always thought he was completely crazy for doing so.



It took a while but someone finally brought the "I am allowed to" point to the argument. Just because you can do something does not mean that you should.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby Jim on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:57 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:I am, on this issue, no question about it. But I do have to say that when I'm face to face with people and this issue comes up, you pretty much know what side they're going to be on by estimating their BFI.


So are you saying that the higher the BFI the higher the common sense ... or something else?
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Re: Biker attack

Postby GSdrums87 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:59 pm

This thread has spiraled totally out of control into a mash of bikers, non-bikers, bike-haters, bike-affocionados, and a whole lot of mad.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby count2infinity on Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:00 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
DelPen wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
DelPen wrote:If you are bicyclist Pedestrian and cry about sharing the road but Jaywalk. ignore the traffic laws like stop signs and lights then you deserve to get run over.

FIFY


You are fairly alone here thinking you are above traffic laws.


ExPatriatePen wrote:It probably angers the drivers who are stopped at the light, and it's illegal (just like jaywalking), so if I get caught, I EXPECT to get a ticket.


Did you miss that?

Edit: Plus, I feel compelled to add, you seem to be the only one who believes that someone "deserves to get run over" for riding a bicycle.


I do enjoy you correcting something for missing something you typed, and then turning around and doing the same thing. He said deserves to get run over IF they ignore traffic laws like stop signs and lights.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby shmenguin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:01 pm

6'3, 185lbs speaking here...as a string bean, i think cycling is a stupid, stupid hobby.
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Re: Biker attack

Postby Jim on Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:02 pm

GSdrums87 wrote:This thread has spiraled totally out of control into a mash of bikers, non-bikers, bike-haters, bike-affocionados, and a whole lot of mad.


Talk about this with anti-street-riding and pro-street-riding people AND a city council member... yowza!!!
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Re: Biker attack

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:13 pm

shmenguin wrote:6'3, 185lbs speaking here...as a string bean, i think cycling is a stupid, stupid hobby.


6'3", 160 soaking wet...

I agree with this sentiment.
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