123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:02 am

So you're cool with feeding at the government trough, while others are in challenging economic circumstances and can't throw away their lives to move from Erie to Texas for a lower wage?
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Grunthy on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:15 am

columbia wrote:So you're cool with feeding at the government trough, while others are in challenging economic circumstances and can't throw away their lives to move from Erie to Texas for a lower wage?



You do know the government transfers positions all the time right? And if you don't transfer with it you lose your job. Oh wait probably not. And I pay my taxes just like you. My position with the government keeps you safe. I put myself at risk in certain places I go, so I take offense for you calling me a leach.

Yes I do feel bad for them, but guess what, welcome to capitalism...
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Willie Kool on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:18 am

pensfan1989 wrote:
Willie Kool wrote:Divisions of the Erie GE locomotive plant are in the process of being replaced by a new one in Texas. When the new plant was built, it was strictly for 'overflow' work. In the last contract negotiation, management low balled the union and outright said 'take it or we're moving your jobs to Texas'. The union didn't accept the offer. The jobs are now going to Texas. I have a hard time seeing that as anything other than corporate greed.


I work in that industry, and there's a lot more to that plant moving that the unions. The Erie plant is almost 100 years old and is not well equipped to handle the manufacture of the new locomotives. The Texas plant has been much more productive per employee as well compared to Erie. The main GE competitor for locomotives, EMD, is now producing locomotives in Mexico after mothballing its plant in London, Ontario. GE wanted to be closer to Mexico to be more centralized for the North American market. There were several issues with locomotives being delivered to western railroads taking several weeks to move from Erie to Chicago for interchange that customers weren't happy with.


While those points may be true, GE made it clear during negotiation that if the union gave concessions the jobs would stay. I don't see how you can have it both ways - either Erie is too inefficient / poorly located or they were just looking to cut labor costs. Now if GE, or this particular Division, were in any way financially hurting this might be justifiable. That is clearly not the case.

Guinness wrote:Erie's loss; Texas' gain.

When faced with a choice between a higher price and lower price, do you generally go with the more expensive option?


Actually, yes. I don't buy anything generic or store brand. I avoid Walmart. I buy mid-grade gasoline. I patronize as many locally-owned small businesses as I can.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:19 am

@Grunthy, who is sucking up our tax dollars

I'll let that stand by itself, for others to evaluate.

Maybe Guinness will defend you; he fashions himself as being good at nuancing this issue. :pop:
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Grunthy on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:25 am

My job actually helps saves you tax dollars by keeping things under budget/keeping it on budget with no overruns, but ok...
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:27 am

Grunthy wrote:My job actually helps saves you tax dollars by keeping things under budget, but ok...



You need to keep your story straight:


My position with the government keeps you safe.


shad, EPP and kaizer and a few other s here actually helped to keep me and other safe.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Grunthy on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:30 am

columbia wrote:
Grunthy wrote:My job actually helps saves you tax dollars by keeping things under budget, but ok...



You need to keep your story straight:


My position with the government keeps you safe.


I don't know how my position couldn't save money while providing a service that keeps people safe, but ok. Whatever you say...
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:43 am

Grunthy wrote:
columbia wrote:
Grunthy wrote:My job actually helps saves you tax dollars by keeping things under budget, but ok...



You need to keep your story straight:


My position with the government keeps you safe.


I don't know how my position couldn't save money while providing a service that keeps people safe, but ok. Whatever you say...


No, the people on this board who have served, my brother who served, my father who served, perhaps some of your relatives who served and all the others who served....THEY worked to keep us safe.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Grunthy on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:47 am

Ok yes I agree that the military does that. And I am hoping I can repay that by deploying like a co-worker did in my office. Though I won't be able to for another year.

Since I was ineligible to enlist, because of an injury, and couldn't pass the physical at the time.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:54 am

Well good luck to you and be safe.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Guinness on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:38 am

Willie Kool wrote:
While those points may be true, GE made it clear during negotiation that if the union gave concessions the jobs would stay. I don't see how you can have it both ways - either Erie is too inefficient / poorly located or they were just looking to cut labor costs. Now if GE, or this particular Division, were in any way financially hurting this might be justifiable. That is clearly not the case.


They created jobs for people in Texas, who underbid the folks in Ohio.

Why would anyone feel that this company is obligated to provide jobs in Ohio in perpetuity? What about those folks in Texas who benefit from the relocation? Don't they deserve jobs?

Guinness wrote:Erie's loss; Texas' gain.

When faced with a choice between a higher price and lower price, do you generally go with the more expensive option?


Actually, yes. I don't buy anything generic or store brand. I avoid Walmart. I buy mid-grade gasoline. I patronize as many locally-owned small businesses as I can.


As you can? Seems like that implies under certain circumstances you make decisions which aren't always made based upon who, other than yourself, benefits. There's certainly nothing wrong with that.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby pfim on Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:47 am

Factorial wrote:
Guinness wrote:
Willie Kool wrote:Divisions of the Erie GE locomotive plant are in the process of being replaced by a new one in Texas. When the new plant was built, it was strictly for 'overflow' work. In the last contract negotiation, management low balled the union and outright said 'take it or we're moving your jobs to Texas'. The union didn't accept the offer. The jobs are now going to Texas. I have a hard time seeing that as anything other than corporate greed.


Erie's loss; Texas' gain.

When faced with a choice between a higher price and lower price, do you generally go with the more expensive option?


Why do you live in MD Guinness? There are a few states where you could live and not have to pay any state taxes. Sounds like an irrational decision on your part.


Well, salaries are much higher in MD than a state like Florida with no income tax. So the return is greater.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Guinness on Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:54 am

pfim wrote:
Factorial wrote:
Guinness wrote:
Willie Kool wrote:Divisions of the Erie GE locomotive plant are in the process of being replaced by a new one in Texas. When the new plant was built, it was strictly for 'overflow' work. In the last contract negotiation, management low balled the union and outright said 'take it or we're moving your jobs to Texas'. The union didn't accept the offer. The jobs are now going to Texas. I have a hard time seeing that as anything other than corporate greed.


Erie's loss; Texas' gain.

When faced with a choice between a higher price and lower price, do you generally go with the more expensive option?


Why do you live in MD Guinness? There are a few states where you could live and not have to pay any state taxes. Sounds like an irrational decision on your part.


Well, salaries are much higher in MD than a state like Florida with no income tax. So the return is greater.


I'm still not sure how my decision as to where I live correlates to a company deciding where to do business. That being said, where I live, the salaries pull down the statewide average. And in an attempt to make Factorial's post relevant to the topic, if the company I was working for decided to go elsewhere for cheaper labor, I would not relocate with the company because I would want to live near my family. And I would not feel as though the company owed it to me to stay in this area. If in the end I could not find employment in this area, I would then relocate to an area as close to here as possible.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby IamtheWaris on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:16 pm

I am about to put an item on eBay. I am hoping some of you on here can let me know how much profit is too much profit so I know when to end the auction. I wouldn't want to be accused of being greedy.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby bh on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:49 pm

You are the waris...
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby mac5155 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:55 pm

IamtheWaris wrote:I am about to put an item on eBay. I am hoping some of you on here can let me know how much profit is too much profit so I know when to end the auction. I wouldn't want to be accused of being greedy.


Link posting plz
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:58 pm

Hey, ho, where'd you go Ohio?
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:26 pm

IamtheWaris wrote:I am about to put an item on eBay. I am hoping some of you on here can let me know how much profit is too much profit so I know when to end the auction. I wouldn't want to be accused of being greedy.


Post the item and I'll let you know.

To be honest, I find many things on ebay where I feel like sending the seller an email to curse him out for being greedy. I never do cuz I don't want ebay to ban me.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Willie Kool on Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:40 pm

Guinness wrote:They created jobs for people in Texas, who underbid the folks in Ohio.

Why would anyone feel that this company is obligated to provide jobs in Ohio in perpetuity? What about those folks in Texas who benefit from the relocation? Don't they deserve jobs? .

You're right G. It should all just be a race to the bottom. Ideally, we'd eventually see people fighting amongst themselves to be the lucky one to earn 10 cents a day. :roll:


Guinness wrote:As you can? Seems like that implies under certain circumstances you make decisions which aren't always made based upon who, other than yourself, benefits. There's certainly nothing wrong with that.

Just like I'm sure there are certain circumstances where you make decisions which aren't always made based upon how well you personally will benefit. There's certainly nothing wrong with that.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:02 pm

Do any of you own securities that consist of company issued stock or their growth is based on the performance of publicly traded companies? If so, then you're part of the problem since you are profiting from companies that are cutting costs by eliminating jobs or relocating them to more cost friendly locals in order to increase their profit and drive up their stock price.

:pop:
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Guinness on Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:05 pm

Willie Kool wrote:
Guinness wrote:They created jobs for people in Texas, who underbid the folks in Ohio.

Why would anyone feel that this company is obligated to provide jobs in Ohio in perpetuity? What about those folks in Texas who benefit from the relocation? Don't they deserve jobs? .

You're right G. It should all just be a race to the bottom. Ideally, we'd eventually see people fighting amongst themselves to be the lucky one to earn 10 cents a day. :roll:


Anything in regards to the actual questions I asked, or...?
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby pfim on Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:14 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Do any of you own securities that consist of company issued stock or their growth is based on the performance of publicly traded companies? If so, then you're part of the problem since you are profiting from companies that are cutting costs by eliminating jobs or relocating them to more cost friendly locals in order to increase their profit and drive up their stock price.

:pop:


What problem? :pop:

We're capitalists, we're all part of the problem.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Willie Kool on Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:23 pm

Guinness wrote:
Willie Kool wrote:
Guinness wrote:They created jobs for people in Texas, who underbid the folks in Ohio.

Why would anyone feel that this company is obligated to provide jobs in Ohio in perpetuity? What about those folks in Texas who benefit from the relocation? Don't they deserve jobs? .

You're right G. It should all just be a race to the bottom. Ideally, we'd eventually see people fighting amongst themselves to be the lucky one to earn 10 cents a day. :roll:


Anything in regards to the actual questions I asked, or...?


Nope. Like I said, you're right. Corporations should have absolutely no concern for their current employees or the communities that helped them grow.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby Willie Kool on Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:38 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:Do any of you own securities that consist of company issued stock or their growth is based on the performance of publicly traded companies? If so, then you're part of the problem since you are profiting from companies that are cutting costs by eliminating jobs or relocating them to more cost friendly locals in order to increase their profit and drive up their stock price.

:pop:

:thumb: IMO, non-employee shareholders taking more and more at the expense of employees isn't just part of the problem, it is the problem and the primary driving force.
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Re: 123 year old plant closing in Warren,Ohio

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:06 pm

columbia wrote:
Guinness wrote:
Factorial wrote:Why do you live in MD Guinness? There are a few states where you could live and not have to pay any state taxes. Sounds like an irrational decision on your part.


The owners of the plant apparently had a choice between a higher labor cost and a lower one. If choosing the lower labor cost is 'greed' (it's not, of course), it's something most people are guilty of.


You conveniently ignored his question.
I'm not surprised, as you obviously have roots there and want to stay. All of us who are human beings can respect that.

However, it's a perfect example of how the labor market is most certainly not fluid and the "if you don't like it, go work work somewhere else" attitude is always extraordinarily lame.


I recently moved to a zero income tax state, it does happen.
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