History Thread

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Re: History Thread

Postby Geezer on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:15 pm

I hadn't realized the WWI German bombing campaign against Great Britain had been so determined. The History channel special Massive Air attacks explained how this campaign started with zeppelins and switched later to two engine Gotha bombers. Count Zeppelin spent time as an observer with the Union army during the civil war. He became interested in the use of observation balloons and followed up by designing the dirigible.
Great Britain had no effective air defense when the Zeppelin raids began. The fighter planes the Brits used took one hour to climb to the 8,000 - 10,000 foot heights the Zeppelins cruised at. After about a year the Brits downed enough Zeppelins that the Germans abandoned that effort. They later resumed the raids using twin engine Gotha bombers. Eventually the Brits were able to down some of them.
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Re: History Thread

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:16 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:Any military that embarks on a land war with Russia during the winter is automatically off the list IMO. That said I have no idea if the Mongols did the same thing.

Hitler had written about invading Russia in Mein Kampf, as a key component of his interpretation of 'Lebensraum'.

Put in the context of the day, I don't think the decision was nearly as stupid as it ended up being. In other words, given the information at their disposal, I don't question the decision to invade Russia. They saw how incompetently the Soviets fought against the Finns in the winter of '39-'40, coupled with some seriously bad intelligence on the state of the Soviet war machine, and the hot-knife-through-butter efficiency with which the Nazis had steamrolled western Europe...... they thought they'd be in and done by Christmas. Shoot, they had accomplished so much by July '41 (just a month after commencing Operation: Barbossa), the Nazi high command were openly discussing post-surrender plans for visiting Ukraine! But just a few weeks later, the Russians began organizing their first counter attacks, and the rest is history.

Where I question the military wisdom (with my 20-20 goggles strapped to my face) was the decision to forego a direct assault on Moscow in the summer of '41 in favor of sticking to the original Barbossa plan, which called for Leningrad to be taken first. That - unsurprisingly - was entirely Hitler's decision, and I think that's what ultimately caused the operation to fail. If they had gone straight through to Moscow and taken out the capital, I think that might have worked.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Gaucho on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:21 pm

The Germans didn't realize winter was coming.
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Re: History Thread

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:28 pm

Had they started Operation Barbarossa a few months earlier (March/April), they probably would've been successful with the original plan. Took them from June 22nd to mid-October to reach Moscow, so 3 months or so.
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Re: History Thread

Postby columbia on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:29 pm

The defense of Berlin wasn't so effective either.
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Re: History Thread

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:31 pm

Their planning was for the operation to be concluded (i.e. Soviets surrendered) by I think October. Winter wasn't something they even felt they needed to worry about.

Plus, the Soviets fought like nincompoops against the Finns the previous winter. Then again, the rodina was not at stake in that battle.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Kaizer on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:33 pm

Hitlers biggest mistake was to not play in a lawnmower as a toddler
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Re: History Thread

Postby tifosi77 on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:35 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Had they started Operation Barbarossa a few months earlier (March/April), they probably would've been successful with the original plan. Took them from June 22nd to mid-October to reach Moscow, so 3 months or so.

They were supposed to attack in mid May, but then Mussolini went and invaded Greece. The response brought a British force to Germany's unprotected southern flank, which the Nazis had to deal with before launching Barbossa. The Russian invasion was launched as the Balkan campaign was winding down.

If the Italians hadn't gotten loopy, there's every possibility the Nazis would've taken Moscow before the heavy snows fell.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Gaucho on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:36 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Their planning was for the operation to be concluded (i.e. Soviets surrendered) by I think October. Winter wasn't something they even felt they needed to worry about.



Yes.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Lt. Dish on Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:10 pm

Excellent thread. I never took a history course I didn't love.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Geezer on Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:23 pm

I got a magazine called American Review of Reviews from Feb 1914; about 6 months before the start of WWI. I'm going to post a summary of some of the articles that may be of interest.
The first is Two Years' Development of the Aeroplane (as they referred to them) And The Dirigible.The early part of the article credited pilots who set new flying records and focused on how much they increased the records from 1911. The Gordon-Bennett cup race had been won at a speed oh 62 mph in 1911.A Frenchman named Provost won the cup in 1913 in a 160 hp Deperdussin monoplane at an average speed of 124.5 mph. M Fourny set a distance record flying a 70 hp Farman biplane 628 miles in 13+ hours. Brinejone des Moulinais flew nearly 1000 miles in 6 1/2 hours. A pilot named Garros flew across the Mediterranean. a new height record was set in December 1913 Legagneux reached 20,295 feet.

Russian M Sikorsky led the way in passenger capacity. The Sikorsky Aerobus flew ith 7 passengers for over an hour. It had a wingspan of 92 ft, length 65 ft with four 100 hp engines. There were also some paragraphs about advances with some automatic stability advances. They recognized French pilot Pegoud as being the first to do a loop the loop. He apparently did many stunts; flying upside down and doing rolls.
There was also discussion of military aeroplanes. The Germans had a new steel warplane called th D.W.F.
The Strengths of Leading Nations in Air Craft
Military Military Military & Civilian
Dirigibles Aeroplanes Pilots

Austria 5 46 60
England 3 141 382
France 13 450 1200
Germany 17 152 320
Italy 5 100 200
Japan 2 20 20
Russia 9 250 118
U.S. 0 25 320

No matter how I spaced that table it shrunk back all jammed together. Beyond my limited techno capacity.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Geezer on Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:27 pm

From American Review of Reviews February 1914

There was an article on the new federal income tax passed in 1913 titled The Income Tax: A New Obligation of Citizenship. A lot of the Article was examples of how to compute your taxable income and what was considered to be income.
The basics were interesting.A single person had to pay a 1% tax on net income over $3000 and a couple over $4000. The dollar coversion chart I found said a 1914 dollar was worth $24.08 in 2013. Those incomes today would equal $72,000 for a single and $96,000 for a couple.
The feds expected to raise 82 million dollars with the tax or 1.97 billion in today's money.The American population was about 99 million in 1914 and I believe 330 million now. Adjusting for that increase that expectation would have been 6.6 billion dollars today.
The additional rates were 1% on income over 20k to 50 k; 2% over 50k to 75k and 3% over 75k to 100k.
Last edited by Geezer on Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Geezer on Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:25 pm

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Re: History Thread

Postby columbia on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:09 am

Watch how the centers of Western culture migrated over 2,000 years
http://qz.com/244999/watch-how-the-cent ... 000-years/
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Re: History Thread

Postby redwill on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:34 am

Randomly, I'll throw out this YT vid of a "discussion" between William F. Buckley and Gore Vidal during the 1968 Chicago DNC riots. Buckley and Vidal are two of my favorite commentators on American politics and civilization.

The exchange is notable for three reasons.

First, the deep implications of the underlying Constitutional questions relative to the issues of the day. Seriously, there is a lot going on here.

Second, for this:

VIDAL: "As far as I'm concerned, the only sort of pro-crypto-Nazi I can think of is yourself."
...
BUCKLEY: "Now listen, you queer. Stop calling me a crypto-Nazi, or I'll sock you in the goddamn face and you'll stay plastered."


And third for WFB's still-developing propensity to shove his own right hand into his head.

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Re: History Thread

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:48 am

columbia wrote:Watch how the centers of Western culture migrated over 2,000 years
http://qz.com/244999/watch-how-the-cent ... 000-years/


that's really cool. not a huge fan of how they presented the information but it was still cool.

I love when history and geography are combined.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:30 pm

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Re: History Thread

Postby columbia on Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:53 am

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Re: History Thread

Postby viva la ben on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:53 am

:lol:
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Re: History Thread

Postby Geezer on Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:45 pm

from the feb 1914 mag the American Review of Reviews
There was about a page devoted to mine's strikes in Michigan and Colorado. The 6 month approx strike in Michigan had the miners demanding an 8 hour day and a $3 per day minimum. (Roughly equivalent to $72 today or $9 per hour for an 8 hour shift). The miners were protesting the new "one man drill" which was replacing the 2 man drill. There was also violence the main incident was a fire false alarm which resulted in a panic where 72 people died , many miner's children.
In Colorado a 5 month strike had resulted in miners being killed in skirmishes with mine guards. A federal grand jury indicted scores of UMW officials on charges of conspiracy to monopolize labor and restrain trade. A citizen's organization deported 7 men on trial for rioting. They also deported famed labor "agitator" Mother Jones.
Sounds rather questionable from a constitutional standpoint.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Hockeynut! on Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:56 pm

Geezer wrote:In Colorado a 5 month strike had resulted in miners being killed in skirmishes with mine guards. A federal grand jury indicted scores of UMW officials on charges of conspiracy to monopolize labor and restrain trade. A citizen's organization deported 7 men on trial for rioting. They also deported famed labor "agitator" Mother Jones.
Sounds rather questionable from a constitutional standpoint.



Sort of reminds me of the Molly Maguires in PA. A private detective service was hired by a private company. They came up with evidence and the "criminals" were arrested by a private police force. The Molly Maguires were put on trial and prosecuted by lawyers from coal companies. It's almost unbelievable in today's world, especially considering this led to several executions.
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Re: History Thread

Postby columbia on Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:04 pm

I'm enjoying the series about the Roosevelts; Teddy was a bit nuts, but knew how to get things done.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Avyran on Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Will drop off these two subreddits here. History Porn (completely safe for work), which shows pictures like this, a shot from Atlantic City, 1912 (spoiled because both this & the next are large pictures, and I can't resize 'em right now):
Spoiler:
Image

And Colorized History, where people take old shots & digitally add color. This one is a Cab Stand from NYC, 1900, with a lot of others found in this Imgur album:
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: History Thread

Postby Orlando Penguin on Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:56 pm

Lt. Dish wrote:Excellent thread. I never took a history course I didn't love.


There was only one I didn't love and that was AP Euro History in high school. Don't know why I elected this one over the US History option. I couldn't wait for the year to be over so I could forget about the Visigoths, various Popes, the Holy Roman Empire, and the difference between Hapbsurg and Habsburg.


And thanks to Avyran, I now have a new website to kill time on. It's mesmerizing to see all of these old pictures in color. Gain a new appreciation for those times.
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Re: History Thread

Postby Pavel Bure on Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:14 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:Any military that embarks on a land war with Russia during the winter is automatically off the list IMO. That said I have no idea if the Mongols did the same thing.

Hitler had written about invading Russia in Mein Kampf, as a key component of his interpretation of 'Lebensraum'.

Put in the context of the day, I don't think the decision was nearly as stupid as it ended up being. In other words, given the information at their disposal, I don't question the decision to invade Russia. They saw how incompetently the Soviets fought against the Finns in the winter of '39-'40, coupled with some seriously bad intelligence on the state of the Soviet war machine, and the hot-knife-through-butter efficiency with which the Nazis had steamrolled western Europe...... they thought they'd be in and done by Christmas. Shoot, they had accomplished so much by July '41 (just a month after commencing Operation: Barbossa), the Nazi high command were openly discussing post-surrender plans for visiting Ukraine! But just a few weeks later, the Russians began organizing their first counter attacks, and the rest is history.

Where I question the military wisdom (with my 20-20 goggles strapped to my face) was the decision to forego a direct assault on Moscow in the summer of '41 in favor of sticking to the original Barbossa plan, which called for Leningrad to be taken first. That - unsurprisingly - was entirely Hitler's decision, and I think that's what ultimately caused the operation to fail. If they had gone straight through to Moscow and taken out the capital, I think that might have worked.

I think the supply lines were big problems as well because the rail road tracks from Europe into Russia were either wider or more narrow... at least I remember reading something about that.
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