Politics... have at it!!!

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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby theblackarts on Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:54 pm

Humperdink wrote:Last night in San Francisco, left-wingers pulled down a statue of Ulysses Grant, the man who did more than anyone except Lincoln to preserve the Union and abolish slavery. The reason for tearing down his statue was apparently that he once owned a slave that he had been given. But he voluntarily freed that slave in 1859, before the Civil War, and long before slavery was abolished.

Quote from Frederick Douglass* about Grant:

“To him, more than to any other man, the Negro owes his enfranchisement,” Douglass said. Douglass eulogized Grant as “a man too broad for prejudice, too humane to despise the humblest, too great to be small at any point. In him the Negro found a protector, the Indian a friend, a vanquished foe a brother, an imperiled nation a savior.”

(From Hans Bader, John Hinderaker)

* For the historically unschooled, Frederick Douglass was an American social reformer, abolitionist, orator, writer, and statesman. After escaping from slavery in Maryland, he became a national leader of the abolitionist movement in Massachusetts and New York, gaining note for his oratory and incisive antislavery writings.


Hump! You’re having quite the inconsequential conversation with yourself, per usual. Did any other headlines catch your eye this weekend that may have more immediate and grave consequences for the Trump admin (and the rule of law in the US), or have you been too busy obsessing over rioters and statues? You’re a true patriot, so I’d hope that you’re keeping track of everything. Country over party right?
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Humperdink on Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:56 am

Labeling someone "reckless and dangerous" and then "inconsequential", all in one thread. Someone appears befuddled.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby theblackarts on Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:45 am

Humperdink wrote:Labeling someone "reckless and dangerous" and then "inconsequential", all in one thread. Someone appears befuddled.


Did I label you inconsequential or did I label your broken-record conversation with yourself over the last two days inconsequential? Didn’t you say something about reading comprehension a while back?

So let’s hear some headlines! Anything of note going on these days?
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Humperdink on Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:53 am

Well, that took long. The breakaway Democrat controlled Peoples Republic of CHOP suffered it's first shooting/murder over the weekend. Two people were shot and one of those subsequently met his demise. According to witnesses, the suspect fled the scene wearing a Love Trumps Hate T-shirt. The perpetrator was described 5'1" 105 pounds, matted hair, scraggly beard. Gender was unknown.

Seattle police were initially unable to enter the crime scene as it was out their jurisdiction. They were later permitted to enter and gather 9MM shell casings as part of CHOP's recycling program.

Edit to add: The Seattle Times has reported a second shooting occurred Sunday evening. Details were sketchy but Democrat CHOP leaders were heard shouting "We ain't Chicago yet, but give us time!".
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby theblackarts on Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:46 am

Humperdink wrote:Well, that took long. The breakaway Democrat controlled Peoples Republic of CHOP suffered it's first shooting/murder over the weekend. Two people were shot and one of those subsequently met his demise. According to witnesses, the suspect fled the scene wearing a Love Trumps Hate T-shirt. The perpetrator was described 5'1" 105 pounds, matted hair, scraggly beard. Gender was unknown.

Seattle police were initially unable to enter the crime scene as it was out their jurisdiction. They were later permitted to enter and gather 9MM shell casings as part of CHOP's recycling program.

Edit to add: The Seattle Times has reported a second shooting occurred Sunday evening. Details were sketchy but Democrat CHOP leaders were heard shouting "We ain't Chicago yet, but give us time!".


Aw Humpy, is this the best you can do? Are you SURE there weren’t any other newsworthy bits this weekend? I’m starting to think that you don’t care so much about the good of the country, but rather the downfall of the wicked, no-good, rotten scoundrel democrats. You have so much to choose from; prove me wrong!
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:40 am

theblackarts wrote:
Humperdink wrote:Well, that took long. The breakaway Democrat controlled Peoples Republic of CHOP suffered it's first shooting/murder over the weekend. Two people were shot and one of those subsequently met his demise. According to witnesses, the suspect fled the scene wearing a Love Trumps Hate T-shirt. The perpetrator was described 5'1" 105 pounds, matted hair, scraggly beard. Gender was unknown.

Seattle police were initially unable to enter the crime scene as it was out their jurisdiction. They were later permitted to enter and gather 9MM shell casings as part of CHOP's recycling program.

Edit to add: The Seattle Times has reported a second shooting occurred Sunday evening. Details were sketchy but Democrat CHOP leaders were heard shouting "We ain't Chicago yet, but give us time!".


Aw Humpy, is this the best you can do? Are you SURE there weren’t any other newsworthy bits this weekend? I’m starting to think that you don’t care so much about the good of the country, but rather the downfall of the wicked, no-good, rotten scoundrel democrats. You have so much to choose from; prove me wrong!


I can't tell if these are parodies or serious news, but the "gender was unknown" was pretty funny.

As for the downfall of the Democrats, I think they're doing a lot of that to themselves. Sad thing is, I truly doubt that normal people are as goofy as the leadership so maybe it's time for a change there. Right now we have the old school Democrats with a failed ideology and the new breed of Socialist Democrats who's ideology has failed for 100 years. We need to get the Democrat party back to a more just left of central ideology and force the Republicans to go back to a just right of central ideology.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Humperdink on Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:57 am

Daniel wrote: I can't tell if these are parodies or serious news ...


Deliberate exaggeration of the truth for comic effect. There's always a bit of truth in humor.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby theblackarts on Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:09 pm

Daniel wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
Humperdink wrote:Well, that took long. The breakaway Democrat controlled Peoples Republic of CHOP suffered it's first shooting/murder over the weekend. Two people were shot and one of those subsequently met his demise. According to witnesses, the suspect fled the scene wearing a Love Trumps Hate T-shirt. The perpetrator was described 5'1" 105 pounds, matted hair, scraggly beard. Gender was unknown.

Seattle police were initially unable to enter the crime scene as it was out their jurisdiction. They were later permitted to enter and gather 9MM shell casings as part of CHOP's recycling program.

Edit to add: The Seattle Times has reported a second shooting occurred Sunday evening. Details were sketchy but Democrat CHOP leaders were heard shouting "We ain't Chicago yet, but give us time!".


Aw Humpy, is this the best you can do? Are you SURE there weren’t any other newsworthy bits this weekend? I’m starting to think that you don’t care so much about the good of the country, but rather the downfall of the wicked, no-good, rotten scoundrel democrats. You have so much to choose from; prove me wrong!


I can't tell if these are parodies or serious news, but the "gender was unknown" was pretty funny.

As for the downfall of the Democrats, I think they're doing a lot of that to themselves. Sad thing is, I truly doubt that normal people are as goofy as the leadership so maybe it's time for a change there. Right now we have the old school Democrats with a failed ideology and the new breed of Socialist Democrats who's ideology has failed for 100 years. We need to get the Democrat party back to a more just left of central ideology and force the Republicans to go back to a just right of central ideology.


I would love less extremist, more reasonable political platforms, but keep in mind that there are new, complex issues that require new, complex solutions. I haven't seen a whole lot of willingness to think outside the box from the GOP over the past few administrations.

Surely you can help out Humperdink; he's struggling to say a single bad word about his beloved "team," who only this weekend offered up a bunch of new opportunities to do so. Please help take his mind off of Tucker Carlson's fever dreams if you can.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:19 pm

theblackarts wrote:
Daniel wrote:I can't tell if these are parodies or serious news, but the "gender was unknown" was pretty funny.

As for the downfall of the Democrats, I think they're doing a lot of that to themselves. Sad thing is, I truly doubt that normal people are as goofy as the leadership so maybe it's time for a change there. Right now we have the old school Democrats with a failed ideology and the new breed of Socialist Democrats who's ideology has failed for 100 years. We need to get the Democrat party back to a more just left of central ideology and force the Republicans to go back to a just right of central ideology.


I would love less extremist, more reasonable political platforms, but keep in mind that there are new, complex issues that require new, complex solutions. I haven't seen a whole lot of willingness to think outside the box from the GOP over the past few administrations.

Surely you can help out Humperdink; he's struggling to say a single bad word about his beloved "team," who only this weekend offered up a bunch of new opportunities to do so. Please help take his mind off of Tucker Carlson's fever dreams if you can.


I think Lewis Black made a joke that the Republican party is the party of no ideas and the Democrats are the party of bad ideas. I think that quote is pretty accurate.

Just to be clear, I have never aligned myself with either party since my views are more centrist than left or right and each issue requires interpretation that comes from neutral rather than left/right/center. Friend of mine asked why I keep bashing the Democrats. I responded with "it's their turn to be stupid". The late 90s neo con movement was terrible with terrible ideas and the Democrats weren't as crazy as they are now. Each side is moving to the left and there really isn't a party for the people. You have the big business party and the victims party and no party for just normal people (and please, don't tell me the Democrats are for the people you and I both know that ship sailed years ago no matter what they say). My problem with the Republican party is that they also want big government, they just want to spend the money differently than the Democrats. Obama gets the blame for the bank and big business bailouts, but if I remember correctly the framework was done by Bush then signed off by Obama.

Personally I believe the Constitution can use original interpretation for modern issues and that's the beauty of the timeless document. Case in point freedom of speech protecting this website from government interference.

I absolutely loved John Kasich giving LGBTQwhatever it is now equal rights under EEOC (was it EEOC, or was it under something else? It was within the past week or so). A lot of republicans were pissed, but I think it was the right Constitutional decision. Give me a group of federal judges at all levels who are Constitutionalists and we'll be fine. If you say this candidate is conservative or liberal rather than Constitutionalist then we've already failed the appointment.

I think this country is in grave danger of ending and it's because of far left socialism without a proper Constitutional party to offer a reasonable alternative. We have a socialist party and a Democrat party and the Republicans are more left than Kennedy was. It's weird, if you judge by citizens, normal Democrats are still just left of center and normal Republicans are just right of center. Problem is the extremists are killing this country. Just left of center and just right of center can fix just about 100% of all issues. Pick literally issue and I'll find a solution that doesn't call for extremism. I might just use "all men are created equal" with men meaning species, lol, but I think you understand where I'm going with this. Stop with the alphabet soup buffet style labeling and just agree that we're Americans.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby theblackarts on Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:24 pm

Daniel wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
Daniel wrote:I can't tell if these are parodies or serious news, but the "gender was unknown" was pretty funny.

As for the downfall of the Democrats, I think they're doing a lot of that to themselves. Sad thing is, I truly doubt that normal people are as goofy as the leadership so maybe it's time for a change there. Right now we have the old school Democrats with a failed ideology and the new breed of Socialist Democrats who's ideology has failed for 100 years. We need to get the Democrat party back to a more just left of central ideology and force the Republicans to go back to a just right of central ideology.


I would love less extremist, more reasonable political platforms, but keep in mind that there are new, complex issues that require new, complex solutions. I haven't seen a whole lot of willingness to think outside the box from the GOP over the past few administrations.

Surely you can help out Humperdink; he's struggling to say a single bad word about his beloved "team," who only this weekend offered up a bunch of new opportunities to do so. Please help take his mind off of Tucker Carlson's fever dreams if you can.


I think Lewis Black made a joke that the Republican party is the party of no ideas and the Democrats are the party of bad ideas. I think that quote is pretty accurate.

Just to be clear, I have never aligned myself with either party since my views are more centrist than left or right and each issue requires interpretation that comes from neutral rather than left/right/center. Friend of mine asked why I keep bashing the Democrats. I responded with "it's their turn to be stupid". The late 90s neo con movement was terrible with terrible ideas and the Democrats weren't as crazy as they are now. Each side is moving to the left and there really isn't a party for the people. You have the big business party and the victims party and no party for just normal people (and please, don't tell me the Democrats are for the people you and I both know that ship sailed years ago no matter what they say). My problem with the Republican party is that they also want big government, they just want to spend the money differently than the Democrats. Obama gets the blame for the bank and big business bailouts, but if I remember correctly the framework was done by Bush then signed off by Obama.

Personally I believe the Constitution can use original interpretation for modern issues and that's the beauty of the timeless document. Case in point freedom of speech protecting this website from government interference.

I absolutely loved John Kasich giving LGBTQwhatever it is now equal rights under EEOC (was it EEOC, or was it under something else? It was within the past week or so). A lot of republicans were pissed, but I think it was the right Constitutional decision. Give me a group of federal judges at all levels who are Constitutionalists and we'll be fine. If you say this candidate is conservative or liberal rather than Constitutionalist then we've already failed the appointment.

I think this country is in grave danger of ending and it's because of far left socialism without a proper Constitutional party to offer a reasonable alternative. We have a socialist party and a Democrat party and the Republicans are more left than Kennedy was. It's weird, if you judge by citizens, normal Democrats are still just left of center and normal Republicans are just right of center. Problem is the extremists are killing this country. Just left of center and just right of center can fix just about 100% of all issues. Pick literally issue and I'll find a solution that doesn't call for extremism. I might just use "all men are created equal" with men meaning species, lol, but I think you understand where I'm going with this. Stop with the alphabet soup buffet style labeling and just agree that we're Americans.


That's a generally rational-ish post, and I applaud your efforts. I have to say though, if you're a fan of the constitution and afraid for the future of the country, I can't think of one idea proposed by the democrats that is more dangerous to the US than the last four years of the Trump admin and their assault on the DoJ and US intelligence. Medicare for all? College debt forgiveness? BUI? I'll take that every day of the week over Ukraine and the last 365 days of Barr. One of them poses economic hurdles, and the other makes us no better than your generic 2nd-world faux-democracy. You don't have to be affiliated with either party to see the issues there.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:02 pm

theblackarts wrote:
Daniel wrote:I think Lewis Black made a joke that the Republican party is the party of no ideas and the Democrats are the party of bad ideas. I think that quote is pretty accurate.

Just to be clear, I have never aligned myself with either party since my views are more centrist than left or right and each issue requires interpretation that comes from neutral rather than left/right/center. Friend of mine asked why I keep bashing the Democrats. I responded with "it's their turn to be stupid". The late 90s neo con movement was terrible with terrible ideas and the Democrats weren't as crazy as they are now. Each side is moving to the left and there really isn't a party for the people. You have the big business party and the victims party and no party for just normal people (and please, don't tell me the Democrats are for the people you and I both know that ship sailed years ago no matter what they say). My problem with the Republican party is that they also want big government, they just want to spend the money differently than the Democrats. Obama gets the blame for the bank and big business bailouts, but if I remember correctly the framework was done by Bush then signed off by Obama.

Personally I believe the Constitution can use original interpretation for modern issues and that's the beauty of the timeless document. Case in point freedom of speech protecting this website from government interference.

I absolutely loved John Kasich giving LGBTQwhatever it is now equal rights under EEOC (was it EEOC, or was it under something else? It was within the past week or so). A lot of republicans were pissed, but I think it was the right Constitutional decision. Give me a group of federal judges at all levels who are Constitutionalists and we'll be fine. If you say this candidate is conservative or liberal rather than Constitutionalist then we've already failed the appointment.

I think this country is in grave danger of ending and it's because of far left socialism without a proper Constitutional party to offer a reasonable alternative. We have a socialist party and a Democrat party and the Republicans are more left than Kennedy was. It's weird, if you judge by citizens, normal Democrats are still just left of center and normal Republicans are just right of center. Problem is the extremists are killing this country. Just left of center and just right of center can fix just about 100% of all issues. Pick literally issue and I'll find a solution that doesn't call for extremism. I might just use "all men are created equal" with men meaning species, lol, but I think you understand where I'm going with this. Stop with the alphabet soup buffet style labeling and just agree that we're Americans.


That's a generally rational-ish post, and I applaud your efforts. I have to say though, if you're a fan of the constitution and afraid for the future of the country, I can't think of one idea proposed by the democrats that is more dangerous to the US than the last four years of the Trump admin and their assault on the DoJ and US intelligence. Medicare for all? College debt forgiveness? BUI? I'll take that every day of the week over Ukraine and the last 365 days of Barr. One of them poses economic hurdles, and the other makes us no better than your generic 2nd-world faux-democracy. You don't have to be affiliated with either party to see the issues there.


The one thing I like about Trump is that he's a bull in a china shop, which is what I don't like about him. Let me explain. Washington has been a mess probably since Nixon and maybe as far back as Johnson, though one can argue FDR but whatever on that, been a long time. The swamp is engulfing this country. You want proof (I know you don't but)…...Tea Party promised to fix things, promised to clean things up, largest freshman class in American history...….then.....crickets. Business as usual. So much money and corruption that we need a bull in a china shop to break things and rebuild more streamlined. In some cases he's succeeded, in other cases he hasn't, but I think things are starting to change nonetheless. They would change more if he'd use the same tactics without offending literally everyone.

I've always said my biggest criticism is his lack of Constitutional knowledge, though I do applaud his federal court appointments being Constitutionalists (not just Supreme but overall). If he gets legislation from the bench out of our country, we'll be better off and that can be a good legacy. I think Biden as president would be a huge mistake so we kinda need Trump for 4 more years warts and all. Yes, I am concerned with what you discussed, but give me a federal court that interprets law rather than creating it and we can fix the rest late.

I do like how he brings things to the light, even on himself. Even the Republicans have gotten a spine lately. Now he needs to mend the bridge with the Democrats and stop being a buffoon.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby interstorm on Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:55 pm

Daniel, just to be clear on something - you like Trump's "bull in a china shop" approach because you believe he is acting for the betterment of the country?

From where I sit, every single decision he has done is singularly for his own financial (and power) benefit. One can point to the stock market gains but much of that is due to tax code changes to incentivize companies to repatriotoze earning kept offshore (otherwise known as embezzlement but hey, whats in a name). Other than 401ks of those in the middle-class who benefited from that (which were peanuts and a side effect compared to the gains of the wealthy, Trump's true beneficiaries) there is no tangible benefit. Employment? That trajectory was already set under Obama and there is no reason to think it would have been different no matter who was president.

I just do not see where this administration has helped the country as a whole. Instead it has further divided us and proven to be completely incapable during a national crisis. Still, without queation, the GOP continues to massively try to suppress votes and gerrymander districts...all along with ignoring subpoenas and long held precedents. Under COVID relief we've had hundreds of billions of dollars dispersed with intentional lack of guidance - what possible justification is there for that? Laws for warrantless ISP searches have been passed (some Democrats did vote for too but overwhelmingly favored by GOP) and lifetime serving judges have been 1) prevented (Garland who wasn't an extreme appointee) and 2) placed (Kavanaugh who IS an extreme appointee). The disregard for the Constitution, the people and moral rightness is outright shocking...and literally every day there is something new by the GOP.

Democracy in America has never been more threatened from an internal force than it is right now. The GOP of Reagan flat-out doesn't even exist anymore. I truly believe the Democrats are fighting a civil war within themselves...Clinton's nomination 4 years ago shows how tone deaf that party has become but as stated earlier - the ideas put forth by even some of the most liberal Democrat congressionals are far less damaging to the identify of this nation than what the GOP has been doing.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:10 pm

interstorm wrote:Daniel, just to be clear on something - you like Trump's "bull in a china shop" approach because you believe he is acting for the betterment of the country?

From where I sit, every single decision he has done is singularly for his own financial (and power) benefit. One can point to the stock market gains but much of that is due to tax code changes to incentivize companies to repatriotoze earning kept offshore (otherwise known as embezzlement but hey, whats in a name). Other than 401ks of those in the middle-class who benefited from that (which were peanuts and a side effect compared to the gains of the wealthy, Trump's true beneficiaries) there is no tangible benefit. Employment? That trajectory was already set under Obama and there is no reason to think it would have been different no matter who was president.

I just do not see where this administration has helped the country as a whole. Instead it has further divided us and proven to be completely incapable during a national crisis. Still, without queation, the GOP continues to massively try to suppress votes and gerrymander districts...all along with ignoring subpoenas and long held precedents. Under COVID relief we've had hundreds of billions of dollars dispersed with intentional lack of guidance - what possible justification is there for that? Laws for warrantless ISP searches have been passed (some Democrats did vote for too but overwhelmingly favored by GOP) and lifetime serving judges have been 1) prevented (Garland who wasn't an extreme appointee) and 2) placed (Kavanaugh who IS an extreme appointee). The disregard for the Constitution, the people and moral rightness is outright shocking...and literally every day there is something new by the GOP.

Democracy in America has never been more threatened from an internal force than it is right now. The GOP of Reagan flat-out doesn't even exist anymore. I truly believe the Democrats are fighting a civil war within themselves...Clinton's nomination 4 years ago shows how tone deaf that party has become but as stated earlier - the ideas put forth by even some of the most liberal Democrat congressionals are far less damaging to the identify of this nation than what the GOP has been doing.


In the end yes, because he's blowing this stuff up, but between now and then we are going to have to suffer a lot before we can get back to greatness again. I've been talking about the issues we've been seeing for 25 years and called a conspiracy nut, but I just believe in Alexander Tyler's 8 stages of a democracy, and we're in the 7th (next one is bondage). Link is below.

I think we've been in a cold civil war for a long time and the hostilities we're now seeing are long overdue. I just thought I'd be dead by the time this started happening so started about 20 years too soon. Blame Trump, blame a generation of participation trophies, blame apathy, blame whoever or whatever you like, but I believe all empires have a lifespan. The Constitution allows us to reinvent ourselves rather can fall but only time will tell.

I recently started doing low carbs/carnivore after years of neglecting my body. My body has revolted and life has kinda sucked lately but in the end 8-) I am using that as an analogy for this country. We have neglected our republic for probably 100 years (if you say less, I won't argue but some say IRS as turning point so going with that) and are paying the consequences of that.

http://blog.adw.org/2016/10/eight-stage ... lizations/
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby interstorm on Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:22 pm

But who is he blowing this up for and what is he putting in place? If you believe things have to hit the bottom to grow again (not sure I do), should Trump be hailed for driving us to that chasm (as opposed to trying to help). All I see is his self-centered actions that serve him and only him. If that is the case, the Constitution and democracy are his enemies, not his allies.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:46 pm

interstorm wrote:But who is he blowing this up for and what is he putting in place? If you believe things have to hit the bottom to grow again (not sure I do), should Trump be hailed for driving us to that chasm (as opposed to trying to help). All I see is his self-centered actions that serve him and only him. If that is the case, the Constitution and democracy are his enemies, not his allies.


I think he thinks he is blowing it up to drain the swamp but in the end does the bull really know why he destroys the China shop? I’d like to think I understand his mindset, but that’s something that won’t be known for probably a long time.

I don’t think he should be hailed or not hailed only that what is happening is inevitable. Don’t really think the Constitution is his enemy (and we aren’t a democracy) nor do I think it’s his ally (is the shark the ally or enemy of the pilot fish or is it just a means to an end for both?). I think it’ll be the beneficiary of what is happening and to me that’s all we can hope for.

We can debate his motivations all we want, but I think he’s the consequence of 100 years of neglect.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby interstorm on Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:03 pm

I guess thats where we disagree. He IS the swamp - always has been and always will be. His business deals have been disasters and leave people in wreckage. His investments have been poor and it is well documented a simple index fund would have beaten his gains. He is a fraud and people flock to him just because they want to "win" against the other political party (without even listening to what that party is doing or even the factions within).

I do agree that he is the product of neglect - people in this country don't vote and have allowed blocks to sieze power for their own benefit. That is what he is, and that is ALL he is. His only legacy (we hope) is that he will make a distaste so grand it shocks people into turning up to cast a ballot for "the normal guy".

Problem is neither party has been putting too many "normal" people on the ticket and one of those parties has been doing everything in its power to prevent people showing up to vote in the first place while lining their own pockets with tax paper money as quickly as possible.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:23 pm

interstorm wrote:I guess thats where we disagree. He IS the swamp - always has been and always will be. His business deals have been disasters and leave people in wreckage. His investments have been poor and it is well documented a simple index fund would have beaten his gains. He is a fraud and people flock to him just because they want to "win" against the other political party (without even listening to what that party is doing or even the factions within).

I do agree that he is the product of neglect - people in this country don't vote and have allowed blocks to sieze power for their own benefit. That is what he is, and that is ALL he is. His only legacy (we hope) is that he will make a distaste so grand it shocks people into turning up to cast a ballot for "the normal guy".

Problem is neither party has been putting too many "normal" people on the ticket and one of those parties has been doing everything in its power to prevent people showing up to vote in the first place while lining their own pockets with tax paper money as quickly as possible.


How can Trump possibly be the federal government swamp when he’s been there 3 years compared to 30-40 years of some senior members of both parties? People come to Washington barely able to afford rent and leave owning multiple mansions. The legal bribery in Washington is an entirely different discussion but the Washington swamp is going to be the thing of legend when the history books discuss this era.

Please reread what I said, he isn’t not the product of neglect but the consequence of it. I don’t think neglect is why he got elected but someone with his behavior is the consequence. If it wasn’t him it’d be someone else.

I think his legacy will be getting Constitutional judges into the federal courts and stop the practice of legislating from the bench. If you consider Joe Biden the “normal guy” then all I can do is LOL. If you don’t like Trump there are no good options on the ballet. Joe Biden is a joke and will go down as the rock bottom of the Democratic Party, at least I hope their rock bottom isn’t lower than Joe Biden.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby interstorm on Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:50 pm

3 years - what do you think Trump has been doing for the last 50+ on the other side of the fence? He has been the bribes and the dirty deals and operated without a care for for anyone but himself. He has been the lobbiest and the corruption. He - and those like him - are the reason for why this country isn't in the hands of the people and instead owned by corporations. The GOP, in its current form, will never change that.

Also if you somehow think Kavanaugh is a constitutionalist...well, we'll just agree to disagree there.

https://www.theusconstitution.org/think ... stitution/
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:02 pm

interstorm wrote:3 years - what do you think Trump has been doing for the last 50+ on the other side of the fence? He has been the bribes and the dirty deals and operated without a care for for anyone but himself. He has been the lobbiest and the corruption. He - and those like him - are the reason for why this country isn't in the hands of the people and instead owned by corporations. The GOP, in its current form, will never change that.

Also if you somehow think Kavanaugh is a constitutionalist...well, we'll just agree to disagree there.

https://www.theusconstitution.org/think ... stitution/


I hate to say it (because I hate lobbying in it’s format) but following the law in Washington is benefiting from the swamp not adding to it. Still awful but to use an analogy, do you blame the Yankees for a high payroll that’s within the rules of MLB? Sure they can have the payroll of the Pirates but competition has been relegated to spending the most money. It sucks but the system is to blame not those who benefit.

I believe that lobbying should remain (it’s protected) but remove money changing hands and see how fast the swamp drains. That is one thing he has failed miserably on and one thing that we might need the states to add an amendment to fix. Like you said the GOP won’t change (you left out the Democrats don’t want to change it either).

Start calling money changing hands bribery and use the Constitution to remove those from office who benefit and see what happens with the next generation of politicians. I think the only way that happens is if the states get together and create an Amendment forbidding any money going from lobbyist to anything related to a politician (donate to my charity where I take 80% and give 20% and say I’m benevolent kind of nonsense).

This is why I don’t believe in term limitations for Congress. As it is, they’ll just steal the same amount of money in less time. Remove money and if someone wants to be a public servant for 30 years at $150K per year, go for it. Just to add, I believe part of the amendment should prohibit any federal politician to make money outside of their job under any circumstances. Fund raising for campaign is one thing, but any money not used should either go to the next campaign or back to the donors. The candidate shouldn’t benefit personally from campaign finances. Except maybe a living wage during the campaign (like bare minimum not luxury).
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby theblackarts on Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:46 pm

Daniel wrote:
interstorm wrote:3 years - what do you think Trump has been doing for the last 50+ on the other side of the fence? He has been the bribes and the dirty deals and operated without a care for for anyone but himself. He has been the lobbiest and the corruption. He - and those like him - are the reason for why this country isn't in the hands of the people and instead owned by corporations. The GOP, in its current form, will never change that.

Also if you somehow think Kavanaugh is a constitutionalist...well, we'll just agree to disagree there.

https://www.theusconstitution.org/think ... stitution/


I hate to say it (because I hate lobbying in it’s format) but following the law in Washington is benefiting from the swamp not adding to it. Still awful but to use an analogy, do you blame the Yankees for a high payroll that’s within the rules of MLB? Sure they can have the payroll of the Pirates but competition has been relegated to spending the most money. It sucks but the system is to blame not those who benefit.

I believe that lobbying should remain (it’s protected) but remove money changing hands and see how fast the swamp drains. That is one thing he has failed miserably on and one thing that we might need the states to add an amendment to fix. Like you said the GOP won’t change (you left out the Democrats don’t want to change it either).

Start calling money changing hands bribery and use the Constitution to remove those from office who benefit and see what happens with the next generation of politicians. I think the only way that happens is if the states get together and create an Amendment forbidding any money going from lobbyist to anything related to a politician (donate to my charity where I take 80% and give 20% and say I’m benevolent kind of nonsense).

This is why I don’t believe in term limitations for Congress. As it is, they’ll just steal the same amount of money in less time. Remove money and if someone wants to be a public servant for 30 years at $150K per year, go for it. Just to add, I believe part of the amendment should prohibit any federal politician to make money outside of their job under any circumstances. Fund raising for campaign is one thing, but any money not used should either go to the next campaign or back to the donors. The candidate shouldn’t benefit personally from campaign finances. Except maybe a living wage during the campaign (like bare minimum not luxury).


Daniel, I'm sorry man, but that might be the craziest and most irrational defense of Trump I've ever heard. The idea that he'll seat judges that interpret on the straight and narrow while he simultaneously mirrors the tendencies of modern authoritarians is laughable at best. You need to re-think your position and come up with a better argument on this one. Any poli-sci student would throw up in their mouths reading your last few posts.

Biden sucks, and everyone knows that. He's a talking head for the democratic establishment. He'll be Obama-lite. But he's not going light the constitution on fire, and you know that. Worst case for you, he passes expanded medicare and some form of debt-relief and maybe legalizes weed. But you know what? Our DoJ is actually, you know, credible again. We are able to pursue global corruption again instead of being a laughing stock shell of what we used to be. Our international word carries weight. Our republican congresspeople can act without fear of retribution from the president (you want less extremism right?). I mean the list goes on and on.

Get it together and try again man. You're comparing an imaginary doomsday scenario to currently happening in real-time one.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby interstorm on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:10 pm

Daniel wrote:I hate to say it (because I hate lobbying in it’s format) but following the law in Washington is benefiting from the swamp not adding to it.


Wait a minute, what is your position again? You are a strict Constitutionalist, right? But if following the law is aiding the swamp and the laws are well within the Constitution...???

You DO want the "swamp" drained, right???

Trump is anti-democracy and anti-Constitution and the modern GOP is tirelessly working to block and suppress voter turnout -- that is something we can agree is bad (very bad)...right? If everyone in this country votes and I'm in the minority, then I'm not in touch with the people and desires of the nation. If only a minority vote (much their own blame but there are also many factors actively preventing citizens from voting) then it is much easier to rationally dissent to the outcome. We, as a nation, MUST VOTE to unify and the politicians must work to compromise on issues. It is through this lens that I look at the political parties to determine which one is trying to help the people and which are not -- which are standing in the way of voting and democracy and which are not (also, I'll add, I do believe gerrymandering was "conceived" by Democrats many years ago. I'll follow up, however, by saying that is the old wing of that party that progressive democrats are fighting internally with). Either way, however, gerrymandering wasn't implemented on a scale as it has been with the GOP, which again is no longer the party of Reagan.

The other GOP objections I have are the grievous actions such as the intentional lack of supervision of the COVID relief funds. That alone shows this administration's true colors and I don't know how any single person can justify the lack oversight. That is the opposite of transparency. That IS THE SWAMP! Add in the ignoring of subpoenas (Constitutionalist, right??? How does that reconcile), not following precedents (why not show your income tax return) and efforts to obscure any transparency. Again -- SWAMP.

I really fail to understand how one can arrive at Trump/GOP helping this country move forward in a positive manner (other than the "us vs them" team mentality which only those of little minds cling to). I'd be more than happy to vote for a Republican and I have in the past -- just the ideas being put forward and signed into law by the GOP these days is truly, in my opinion, Anti-American.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:11 pm

theblackarts wrote:
Daniel wrote:
interstorm wrote:3 years - what do you think Trump has been doing for the last 50+ on the other side of the fence? He has been the bribes and the dirty deals and operated without a care for for anyone but himself. He has been the lobbiest and the corruption. He - and those like him - are the reason for why this country isn't in the hands of the people and instead owned by corporations. The GOP, in its current form, will never change that.

Also if you somehow think Kavanaugh is a constitutionalist...well, we'll just agree to disagree there.

https://www.theusconstitution.org/think ... stitution/


I hate to say it (because I hate lobbying in it’s format) but following the law in Washington is benefiting from the swamp not adding to it. Still awful but to use an analogy, do you blame the Yankees for a high payroll that’s within the rules of MLB? Sure they can have the payroll of the Pirates but competition has been relegated to spending the most money. It sucks but the system is to blame not those who benefit.

I believe that lobbying should remain (it’s protected) but remove money changing hands and see how fast the swamp drains. That is one thing he has failed miserably on and one thing that we might need the states to add an amendment to fix. Like you said the GOP won’t change (you left out the Democrats don’t want to change it either).

Start calling money changing hands bribery and use the Constitution to remove those from office who benefit and see what happens with the next generation of politicians. I think the only way that happens is if the states get together and create an Amendment forbidding any money going from lobbyist to anything related to a politician (donate to my charity where I take 80% and give 20% and say I’m benevolent kind of nonsense).

This is why I don’t believe in term limitations for Congress. As it is, they’ll just steal the same amount of money in less time. Remove money and if someone wants to be a public servant for 30 years at $150K per year, go for it. Just to add, I believe part of the amendment should prohibit any federal politician to make money outside of their job under any circumstances. Fund raising for campaign is one thing, but any money not used should either go to the next campaign or back to the donors. The candidate shouldn’t benefit personally from campaign finances. Except maybe a living wage during the campaign (like bare minimum not luxury).


Daniel, I'm sorry man, but that might be the craziest and most irrational defense of Trump I've ever heard. The idea that he'll seat judges that interpret on the straight and narrow while he simultaneously mirrors the tendencies of modern authoritarians is laughable at best. You need to re-think your position and come up with a better argument on this one. Any poli-sci student would throw up in their mouths reading your last few posts.

Biden sucks, and everyone knows that. He's a talking head for the democratic establishment. He'll be Obama-lite. But he's not going light the constitution on fire, and you know that. Worst case for you, he passes expanded medicare and some form of debt-relief and maybe legalizes weed. But you know what? Our DoJ is actually, you know, credible again. We are able to pursue global corruption again instead of being a laughing stock shell of what we used to be. Our international word carries weight. Our republican congresspeople can act without fear of retribution from the president (you want less extremism right?). I mean the list goes on and on.

Get it together and try again man. You're comparing an imaginary doomsday scenario to currently happening in real-time one.


How is saying business man Trump who didn't want to get in politics following a business practice than joining politics to get Constitutional judges irrational? I never once said that what he was doing was right, nor was I defending him (actually said it was awful in the post). Right now the lobbyists giving money to Congress members is Constitutional and legal, so a strict judge isn't going to change that without legislating from the bench? I even acknowledge that this is a huge failure for him. The only defense is saying he's not the swamp, but that was because I view it as Washington lobbyists allowed by politician whereas interstorm feels it's both sides, which is fine. Swamps is just a term and hardly a defense. You and I both know that following the rules in a competitive business is different than being in a position to change those rules, which again he's done an awful job at doing.

If all Biden does is expanded medicare we'd be lucky. Have you read the Green New deal? Or the fact that they want open borders? If 10% of their platform becomes law it will be awful, I've read as much of it as I can tolerate and what they want will make todays debt look like nothing. Our debt is beyond belief and if the Democrats plans in their platform don't scare you I don't know what would. I haven't read the current Republican platform but I'm sure it'd scare me also. Our federal government simply can't spend like this and keeping adding debt without consequences.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:23 pm

interstorm wrote:
Daniel wrote:I hate to say it (because I hate lobbying in it’s format) but following the law in Washington is benefiting from the swamp not adding to it.


Wait a minute, what is your position again? You are a strict Constitutionalist, right? But if following the law is aiding the swamp and the laws are well within the Constitution...???

You DO want the "swamp" drained, right???


You did read the part where I said the states would have to get together and create an amendment right? No one in Washington will change those laws. The laws are within the Constitution, albeit a grey area. One easily fixed if enough states get together. You don't need Congress to create an amendment. While it's never been done before it is something that can happen.

I don't think I ever said the GOP had our best interests at heart, I don't believe either party does. At least not at the federal level.

Locally, I think my local government handled this pandemic beautifully. They really didn't restrict anything, other than no dine in, and businesses handled their business as they wished within those parameters. Not a lot of deaths (2) and very few (if any) businesses went under. I don't care if they're Republican or Democrat, they did a fantastic job. I'm in Texas and think the state government did pretty well also, again don't care which part they are.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby theblackarts on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:34 pm

Daniel wrote:How is saying business man Trump who didn't want to get in politics following a business practice than joining politics to get Constitutional judges irrational?


It's irrational because you're saying that a narcissistic sociopath is going to appoint judges that fix the country. You're saying that Kushner will whisper in his ear the names of all of the righteous candidates. It sounds as crazy as it is. Trump is the swamp incarnate. If you want to get rid of back door dealings, he has to be the first to go. C'mon man.

Daniel wrote:Or the fact that they want open borders?


That's news to literally everyone who follows politics. You may want to contact your local media.

Daniel wrote:If 10% of their platform becomes law it will be awful, I've read as much of it as I can tolerate and what they want will make todays debt look like nothing. Our debt is beyond belief and if the Democrats plans in their platform don't scare you I don't know what would. I haven't read the current Republican platform but I'm sure it'd scare me also. Our federal government simply can't spend like this and keeping adding debt without consequences.


10% huh? Wow. You're comparing adding more debt with authoritarian rule of the US. Gotcha. You're comparing the Green New Deal to pushing humanity past the event horizon of global warming AND giving China a monopoly on sustainable tech. Sounds reasonable. Do you trust Trump to pull us out of a recession that he's needlessly prolonging? He's already proven himself to be incapable. Do you trust Trump to lead in literally any sort of manner that will cool the political climate, when all he's done thus far is throw gunpowder into the national dumpster fire? I would hope the answer is no.
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Re: Politics... have at it!!!

Postby interstorm on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:34 pm

You can say "if, if, if" about the Democrats all you want but unlike theoretical possibilities, the GOP is giving us damning realities. Concerned about spending - what has the GOP done (even going back to the gulf war)? Fear the economy - what has the GOP done to prevent reckless behavior by banks (doing things that were once illegal)? But the stock market....driven by buy-backs inflating the price (and the bank accounts of shareholders) only to come crawling back with cap in hand when hard times arise.

Lets just take the (lack of) oversight on the COVID releif. Please - anyone - justify that to me? There is a laundry list that goes on for miles on GOP problems but since this is fresh in everyone's mind...I'd like to know how anyone can say in the next election, "Yep - these guys probably stole billions of tax payer money but they still got my vote".

HOW?

No ifs, no maybe on what the Democrats MIGHT do tomorrow. Sure, Democrats aren't perfect but this is something so far beyond anything they've bumbled in modern times. Lets talk today - right now. How in the world does ANYONE reconcile intentional lack of oversight there?

HOW?
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