Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby bhaw on Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:14 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:You're a professional sports team who is doing well in the standings, you shouldn't really need to market yourself. The media does that for you.


Show me any professional sports team, regardless of how good or bad they are, that does not do any marketing. There are none.

All teams have a marketing plan and a sales office, which Phoenix did not have for a year +. Unless you can show me any team where this was the case, you are romanticizing a professional sports team.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby bhaw on Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:19 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
bhaw wrote:Do you really not understand, in the grand scheme of things, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful hockey team in Hamilton = marginal
Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful team in Phoenix = several million


And, again, where is the proof that 9-10 teams could be supported in Canada? There's a reason teams had to leave...

Teams like ATL and PHX have not had a team to get behind in a LONG time. A market like Pittsburgh fails when the team sucks for lengths of time. Let them be successful before you start complaining that no one wants to support them. I doubt the attendance would be great in QC or Hamilton if the team absolute sucked for the better part of 10 years. Fans don't support losers.

Wth is with this argument: Cool, you attracted one new fan to hockey. That doesn't change the fact that your arena currently has 2 people in it. You're trying to tell me thatr instead of having an arena with 18,000 fans in it, each paying 100 bucks a ticket, with 9,000 of those people wearing jerseys, you'd rather have 9,000 fans at 25 bucks a piece and 100 jerseys on? In what world is that better? Why is the NHL so worried about "growing the game" when they don't even have a steady leg to stand on yet?

Part of the reason teams had to leave was that the dollar was low. Do you really expect it to be that low again, taking into account the consistantly rising price of oil?

Toronto, which is right next door to Hamilton, disagrees with you. Fans in this area do in fact support losers (their team still charges 250 a piece for good seats and they haven't made the playoffs since before the lockout) . And don't try to tell me it's just because it's the Buds. It's because it's an NHL team.


Toronto, as I've said in many many posts (including this thread), is one of the few cities that can survive with a crappy product. There is no proof either way that they would support two crappy teams.

Growing the game is the only way the NHL will survive in the long run. As much as Hamilton wants a team, and as easy as it is to say "We'll support a team no matter what!" there is much more to gain by going after a market like Phoenix.

Teams didn't leave only b/c of the low dollar. There was also very little corporate support. 19k fans and no corporate support is worse than 10k fans WITH corporate support in terms of supporting a team.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:31 pm

bhaw wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:You're a professional sports team who is doing well in the standings, you shouldn't really need to market yourself. The media does that for you.


Show me any professional sports team, regardless of how good or bad they are, that does not do any marketing. There are none.

All teams have a marketing plan and a sales office, which Phoenix did not have for a year +. Unless you can show me any team where this was the case, you are romanticizing a professional sports team.

I "mis-spoke" there. Every team does market themselves, I just can't think of an ad for the buds off the top of my head, and I feel as though winning is the best marketing.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:53 pm

bhaw wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
bhaw wrote:Do you really not understand, in the grand scheme of things, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful hockey team in Hamilton = marginal
Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful team in Phoenix = several million

And, again, where is the proof that 9-10 teams could be supported in Canada? There's a reason teams had to leave...

Teams like ATL and PHX have not had a team to get behind in a LONG time. A market like Pittsburgh fails when the team sucks for lengths of time. Let them be successful before you start complaining that no one wants to support them. I doubt the attendance would be great in QC or Hamilton if the team absolute sucked for the better part of 10 years. Fans don't support losers.


I totally agree, but for this argument to work there has to be growth in attendance. Unfortunately, attendance is going the wrong way:
Image

Phoenix finished 4th in the West last year and are competitive again this year to get a playoff spot, and the average attendance at their games has again this year. At this point, the potential needs to start paying.


You do realize that they have not been allowed to market at all since the NHL took over, right? They turned over their entire ticket office and, due to the ownership issue, have absolutely zero advertising/marketing efforts in the community right now.


I don't know that, because its not true:

http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=32913 - They have a full, dedicated M&A & sales staff

They also have local packages, partnerships, and promotions:
http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=65994
http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=64549
http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=66870

EDIT: They also have the same kind of activity that the Pens and other teams do on FB and Twitter and sign up for the email blasts on their Fan Zone page... I would call their aggressiveness the opposite of 'zero advertising/marketing'.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:30 pm

Glendale might not work out as an NHL market, but I don't think they are going to get full buy in from the local fans until they have a long term agreement in place. Fans are too skeptical to buy into a team living on a year-to-year basis. Once Hulsizer is in place they will have stable ownership. This is the 3rd season in a row the Yotes have had ownership turmoil.

If you look at their attendance history, they basically averaged ~ 14,500 until last season when they lost fans due to the bankruptcy crisis:

http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/index.p ... 18-2008-09

Despite the revisionist romantic history, Winnipeg was a crap market. Last season was the first time in Coyotes history (96/97 to present) they didn't roughly meet or exceed attendance in every one of the Jets last 7 seasons in Winnipeg. Plus Phoenix has more corporate sponsorship.

Quebec also had poor attendance and minimal corporate sponsorships.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:41 pm

Draftnik wrote:Glendale might not work out as an NHL market, but I don't think they are going to get full buy in from the local fans until they have a long term agreement in place. Fans are too skeptical to buy into a team living on a year-to-year basis. Once Hulsizer is in place they will have stable ownership. This is the 3rd season in a row the Yotes have had ownership turmoil.

They had 10 years where they didn't have ownership turmoil
If you look at their attendance history, they basically averaged ~ 14,500 until last season when they lost fans due to the bankruptcy crisis:

At what price were those tickets sold? I highly doubt it was anywhere near the price they could be sold at here.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:37 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:Glendale might not work out as an NHL market, but I don't think they are going to get full buy in from the local fans until they have a long term agreement in place. Fans are too skeptical to buy into a team living on a year-to-year basis. Once Hulsizer is in place they will have stable ownership. This is the 3rd season in a row the Yotes have had ownership turmoil.

They had 10 years where they didn't have ownership turmoil
If you look at their attendance history, they basically averaged ~ 14,500 until last season when they lost fans due to the bankruptcy crisis:

At what price were those tickets sold? I highly doubt it was anywhere near the price they could be sold at here.


You took my Yotes quotes out of context. I was comparing attendance in Phoenix to Winnipeg.

Obviously if I place a valuation of more than $250M on a 2nd franchise in the GTA or Golden Horseshoe, I think the revenue potential of those markets is greater than an average NHL franchise.

That said, it is precisely because of that potential that the NHL will not allow a low priced franchise like Phoenix to relocate to one of those markets. There is no benefit to the other 29 owners to let a low priced franchise move to that area. NHL owners will sell a relatively expensive expansion franchise to somebody in one of those markets so that all 30 NHL owners can get a cut of the large expansion fee.

Why do you persist on advocating a franchise relocation to Hamilton when it is 100% clear Bettman and the owners would never permit it? The NHL wouldn't even give Hamilton a franchise in the early 90s when they had a deep pocketed owner (Ron Joyce) that wasn't a litigious adversary like Balsillie and Copps Colosseum wasn't an antiquated dump like it is now. The NHL chose Ottawa and Tampa over Hamilton back then. Neither team had a building. Tampa didn't even have an owner and Ottawa had one that was severely under-capitalized.

If I lived in Hamilton I might share your frustration, but as an objective outsider I see the obvious roadblocks Hamilton has faced at the BOG level, most likely from TOR & BUF behind the scenes. It should be crystal clear to anybody that Balsillie has alienated all the NHL owners. It isn't strictly a Bettman thing. Even a potential Balsillie ally like Melnyk turned on Balsillie after he tried to use the bankruptcy court to get the Yotes.

I think its clear that a 2nd team in the GTA or Golder Horseshoe is the most obvious expansion location if/when the NHL considers expanding, but its also clear that Balsillie won't be involved, TOR & BUF will be indemnified (because the franchise will be granted on the NHL's terms, not via the courts), & all 30 NHL teams will get a cut of the lucrative asset (the market for an NHL team) they all own right now.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:30 pm

Draftnik wrote:You took my Yotes quotes out of context. I was comparing attendance in Phoenix to Winnipeg.

Sorry about that.
Obviously if I place a valuation of more than $250M on a 2nd franchise in the GTA or Golden Horseshoe, I think the revenue potential of those markets is greater than an average NHL franchise.

That said, it is precisely because of that potential that the NHL will not allow a low priced franchise like Phoenix to relocate to one of those markets. There is no benefit to the other 29 owners to let a low priced franchise move to that area. NHL owners will sell a relatively expensive expansion franchise to somebody in one of those markets so that all 30 NHL owners can get a cut of the large expansion fee.

I definitely agree with you here, but:
1) The Buds already nixed an expansion franchise in Hamilton once (you address this later)
and 2) I don't see any person other than JB with the money who is willing to pay the amount that the NHL is looking for in expansion fees

Why do you persist on advocating a franchise relocation to Hamilton when it is 100% clear Bettman and the owners would never permit it? The NHL wouldn't even give Hamilton a franchise in the early 90s when they had a deep pocketed owner (Ron Joyce) that wasn't a litigious adversary like Balsillie and Copps Colosseum wasn't an antiquated dump like it is now. The NHL chose Ottawa and Tampa over Hamilton back then. Neither team had a building. Tampa didn't even have an owner and Ottawa had one that was severely under-capitalized.

Because is p***es me off that the NHL will go to hockey markets that don't work and are consitently in the red, when it's pretty evident to many people that this city could be a cash cow for the league, regardless of how good the team actually is.
If I lived in Hamilton I might share your frustration, but as an objective outsider I see the obvious roadblocks Hamilton has faced at the BOG level, most likely from TOR & BUF behind the scenes. It should be crystal clear to anybody that Balsillie has alienated all the NHL owners. It isn't strictly a Bettman thing. Even a potential Balsillie ally like Melnyk turned on Balsillie after he tried to use the bankruptcy court to get the Yotes.

I see and understand the roadblocks, it just p***es me off that the NHL would rather have teams in markets that clearly don't care about or watch the game, than a team that could become one of the highest profiteers in the league
I think its clear that a 2nd team in the GTA or Golder Horseshoe is the most obvious expansion location if/when the NHL considers expanding, but its also clear that Balsillie won't be involved, TOR & BUF will be indemnified (because the franchise will be granted on the NHL's terms, not via the courts), & all 30 NHL teams will get a cut of the lucrative asset (the market for an NHL team) they all own right now.

I agree, but I have no idea what other person would be willing to sink 500 Mil into a project before the team has even played a game. JB is the only person I see with the drive and the money possible to bring a team here under those curcumstances.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:10 pm

Bettman has softened his public stance on a 2nd team in the GTA or Golden Horseshoe recently. I'm not going to look up the links, but I do recall it was a total non-starter for him during the first ~ 15 years of his tenure. At some point during the Yotes bankruptcy trial he publicly acknowledged that the area would be a good expansion candidate. Maybe it was some kind of legal or PR move to mollify antitrust concerns or to try and appease people that consider him anti-Canadian.

Somebody will emerge as the owner. Nobody (in terms of NHL ownership) heard of Terry Pegula at this time last year. Same with Hulsizer, Vinik, etc.

JB is like a guy that wants to join a country club but he goes out of his way to alienate everybody on the membership committee. Why would they ever admit him?

Its not like RIM where he can steal technology that might be patented and profit from its usage while he dares the patent holders to sue him. He needs to strike a mutually beneficial deal with the NHL owners before he can join the NHL.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby columbia on Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:19 pm

Draftnik wrote:JB is like a guy that wants to join a country club but he goes out of his way to alienate everybody on the membership committee. Why would they ever admit him?


He's worth over 2 billion dollars.

At this point, I don't really care how "shady" he might have been in relation to various attempts to get into the league as an owner.
Sell the damn team to him at a massively inflated price and let the Coyotes move to Hamilton.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:42 pm

columbia wrote:
Draftnik wrote:JB is like a guy that wants to join a country club but he goes out of his way to alienate everybody on the membership committee. Why would they ever admit him?


He's worth over 2 billion dollars.

At this point, I don't really care how "shady" he might have been in relation to various attempts to get into the league as an owner.
Sell the damn team to him at a massively inflated price and let the Coyotes move to Hamilton.

That's part of what frustrates me: You're too good for a man with an obvious passion for the game, and pockets deep enough to buy 10 teams? Especially when you`ve given criminals teams over him.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:41 am

If the NHL ever let JB into the league they would be inviting a hyper-litigious guy to sue them over anything and everything. He could sue them over joint TV rights, joint merchandise marketing, lockouts, collective bargaining issues, etc.

The only way the NHL can prevent this is to prevent JB from getting into the NHL.

NHL owners want partners, not somebody incapable of following rules and intent on suing to get his way.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:00 am

Draftnik wrote:If the NHL ever let JB into the league they would be inviting a hyper-litigious guy to sue them over anything and everything. He could sue them over joint TV rights, joint merchandise marketing, lockouts, collective bargaining issues, etc.

I hope you don't actually believe that.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Fast B on Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:24 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:If the NHL ever let JB into the league they would be inviting a hyper-litigious guy to sue them over anything and everything. He could sue them over joint TV rights, joint merchandise marketing, lockouts, collective bargaining issues, etc.

I hope you don't actually believe that.


You don't? Is it because he's Canadian?
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:35 pm

Fast B wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:If the NHL ever let JB into the league they would be inviting a hyper-litigious guy to sue them over anything and everything. He could sue them over joint TV rights, joint merchandise marketing, lockouts, collective bargaining issues, etc.

I hope you don't actually believe that.


You don't? Is it because he's Canadian?

No, and it's not because he's Canadian. I just have trouble believing that a man who is spending millions of dollars of his own money to try to win these guys over (or force himself into their club) would do something that would further alienate himself from other NHL owners. That's a recipe for disaster for himself.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby brwi on Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:06 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:No, and it's not because he's Canadian. I just have trouble believing that a man who is spending millions of dollars of his own money to try to win these guys over (or force himself into their club) would do something that would further alienate himself from other NHL owners. That's a recipe for disaster for himself.


He has gone out of his way at every opportunity to lie and deceive the NHL and its fans in the past(and try a couple of end-runs around), and it's hardly a stretch to have no trust in JB whatsoever or to think there is no way he'll ever be allowed to own a NHL franchise. Basillie's track record in previous attempts to acquire a franchise is awful and he's shown he has no ethics or integrity whatsoever. Why exactly would the NHL BOG want this guy as a member?
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:24 am

brwi wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:No, and it's not because he's Canadian. I just have trouble believing that a man who is spending millions of dollars of his own money to try to win these guys over (or force himself into their club) would do something that would further alienate himself from other NHL owners. That's a recipe for disaster for himself.


He has gone out of his way at every opportunity to lie and deceive the NHL and its fans in the past(and try a couple of end-runs around), and it's hardly a stretch to have no trust in JB whatsoever or to think there is no way he'll ever be allowed to own a NHL franchise. Basillie's track record in previous attempts to acquire a franchise is awful and he's shown he has no ethics or integrity whatsoever. Why exactly would the NHL BOG want this guy as a member?


:thumb:
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:27 am

brwi wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:No, and it's not because he's Canadian. I just have trouble believing that a man who is spending millions of dollars of his own money to try to win these guys over (or force himself into their club) would do something that would further alienate himself from other NHL owners. That's a recipe for disaster for himself.


He has gone out of his way at every opportunity to lie and deceive the NHL and its fans in the past(and try a couple of end-runs around), and it's hardly a stretch to have no trust in JB whatsoever or to think there is no way he'll ever be allowed to own a NHL franchise. Basillie's track record in previous attempts to acquire a franchise is awful and he's shown he has no ethics or integrity whatsoever. Why exactly would the NHL BOG want this guy as a member?

Because he has a passion for hockey and more money than a few owners combined.

He tried to do it their way with Pittsburgh - They **** the deal on him. He was ready to buy the team until they put 100 stipulations onto him and the deal (not his fault) and that's when he started to try to go around the system. It's not as though he just started to bend the rules.

When a man is ready to purchase a franchise and YOU change the stipulations of the deal, it's you who have no integrity, not him.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby brwi on Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:48 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:Because he has a passion for hockey and more money than a few owners combined.

He tried to do it their way with Pittsburgh - They **** the deal on him. He was ready to buy the team until they put 100 stipulations onto him and the deal (not his fault) and that's when he started to try to go around the system. It's not as though he just started to bend the rules.

When a man is ready to purchase a franchise and YOU change the stipulations of the deal, it's you who have no integrity, not him.


All the misdeeds and lack of ethics and even anything resembling honesty has been noted in this thread already in relation to what Basillie tried to do in Pittsburgh, Nashville, and then Phoenix.

The amount of money he has would be nice and I'm sure the NHL BOG would welcome anyone with that kind of very deep pockets, except they have zero trust at all in Basillie because of his track record of dishonesty and actually attempting to actively devalue the Predators' franchise so he could get it cheaper. He might have had the Pens if he hadn't BS'd everyone so much that 66 was rumored to tell everyone "this guy cannot be trusted."

Basillie isn't going to own a NHL franchise unless every team changes ownership suddenly. That ship has long ago sailed and he has only himself to blame for that. He didn't just screw it up badly once, but 3 times, and the NHL wind up in court over that last foray he made.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Fast B on Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:27 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
brwi wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:No, and it's not because he's Canadian. I just have trouble believing that a man who is spending millions of dollars of his own money to try to win these guys over (or force himself into their club) would do something that would further alienate himself from other NHL owners. That's a recipe for disaster for himself.


He has gone out of his way at every opportunity to lie and deceive the NHL and its fans in the past(and try a couple of end-runs around), and it's hardly a stretch to have no trust in JB whatsoever or to think there is no way he'll ever be allowed to own a NHL franchise. Basillie's track record in previous attempts to acquire a franchise is awful and he's shown he has no ethics or integrity whatsoever. Why exactly would the NHL BOG want this guy as a member?

Because he has a passion for hockey and more money than a few owners combined.

He tried to do it their way with Pittsburgh - They **** the deal on him. He was ready to buy the team until they put 100 stipulations onto him and the deal (not his fault) and that's when he started to try to go around the system. It's not as though he just started to bend the rules.

When a man is ready to purchase a franchise and YOU change the stipulations of the deal, it's you who have no integrity, not him.


Oh please. If you believe he was planning to keep the team in Pittsburgh — which was his stated intention — than you're just being naive.

His actions with Nashville and Phoenix have made his character more than clear.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:50 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
brwi wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:No, and it's not because he's Canadian. I just have trouble believing that a man who is spending millions of dollars of his own money to try to win these guys over (or force himself into their club) would do something that would further alienate himself from other NHL owners. That's a recipe for disaster for himself.


He has gone out of his way at every opportunity to lie and deceive the NHL and its fans in the past(and try a couple of end-runs around), and it's hardly a stretch to have no trust in JB whatsoever or to think there is no way he'll ever be allowed to own a NHL franchise. Basillie's track record in previous attempts to acquire a franchise is awful and he's shown he has no ethics or integrity whatsoever. Why exactly would the NHL BOG want this guy as a member?

Because he has a passion for hockey and more money than a few owners combined.

He tried to do it their way with Pittsburgh - They **** the deal on him. He was ready to buy the team until they put 100 stipulations onto him and the deal (not his fault) and that's when he started to try to go around the system. It's not as though he just started to bend the rules.

When a man is ready to purchase a franchise and YOU change the stipulations of the deal, it's you who have no integrity, not him.


Bettman was never going to let the Pens leave PGH. They were never a portable franchise. The whole arena slots saga was a sideshow. The Pens ended up getting one of the most 1-sided deals in the entire NHL. CEC is a license to print $$$ and that is before the Pens get to develop the 10 acres of adjacent land. There was no reason for the NHL to abandon this market. Its one of the top US markets on a per -capita basis.

JB claiming the NHL was going to let him buy the Pens and move them to Hamilton is a total lie.

The NHL doesn't need Balsillie or a 2nd team in the GTA or Golden Horseshoe. The owners would like the expansion fee, but other than that the NHL gains very little. The CBC and TSN national TV deals wouldn't increase. The market(s) are already heavily penetrated by the NHL. There would be additional ticket revenue, but at the same time it will devalue the TML and BUF tickets because more supply would enter the market to compete with some of the same demand. The same applies to RSN TV $$$ because a 2nd team would certainly cut into the value of TML TV deals. There is no burning need for the NHL to place a 2nd team in the area and certainly they don't need JB to do it. The notion that he and he alone is the only person capable of owning the franchise is absurd. That is his PR machine lying once again. When Steve Stavros sold TML who in the world would have claimed Larry Tannenbaum and the Ontario Teachers Union Pension Fund were the only entities capable of owning TML? Its absurd to think nobody else would be interested or have the $$$.

JB could have bought the Pens and kept them in PGH and if he played be the rules he would have been 1st in line to buy an expansion franchise in Ontario. Craig Leopold owned the Preds for a while but he really wanted a team in MIN, so the NHL let him sell the Preds and buy the Wild when they came on the market. Do you really think Jeff Vinik came to the NHL and said he had to have the TBL and Matt Hulsizer said he had to have PHX? It doesn't work that way. They court Bettman & the BOG and vice versa and when an opportunity to purchase a franchise becomes available they take it. There are guys like Pegula that want a franchise in their local market, but he is going to pay a premium at ~ $160M to $175M to buy BUF and that is with Golisano being motivated to sell.

JB's non-compliance with rules isn't limited to the NHL. RIM has been sued multiple times (and settled because they stole IP) for patent infringement. Obviously JB has been successful doing things that way in the Tech world, but that doesn't mean he can get away with it in the NHL where franchise ownership & transfers are approved/controlled by a super-majority of the other owners.

Ron Joyce understands the reality. The NHL controls its franchises. End of story. This article is dated before the courts ruled the NHL is not an illegal cartel. Once again JB was wrong. Its also ironic that Joyce thinks Hamilton is incapable of sustaining an NHL franchise with corporate support:

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/stor ... id=1578428
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:28 am

Fast B wrote:Oh please. If you believe he was planning to keep the team in Pittsburgh — which was his stated intention — than you're just being naive.

I definitely don't believe he was going to keep the team in Pittsburgh, but I don't see why he should be blamed for the NHL changing the rules halfway through the game.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:05 am

Draftnik wrote:Bettman was never going to let the Pens leave PGH. They were never a portable franchise. The whole arena slots saga was a sideshow. The Pens ended up getting one of the most 1-sided deals in the entire NHL. CEC is a license to print $$$ and that is before the Pens get to develop the 10 acres of adjacent land. There was no reason for the NHL to abandon this market. Its one of the top US markets on a per -capita basis.

JB claiming the NHL was going to let him buy the Pens and move them to Hamilton is a total lie.

The NHL doesn't need Balsillie or a 2nd team in the GTA or Golden Horseshoe. The owners would like the expansion fee, but other than that the NHL gains very little. The CBC and TSN national TV deals wouldn't increase. The market(s) are already heavily penetrated by the NHL. There would be additional ticket revenue, but at the same time it will devalue the TML and BUF tickets because more supply would enter the market to compete with some of the same demand. The same applies to RSN TV $$$ because a 2nd team would certainly cut into the value of TML TV deals. There is no burning need for the NHL to place a 2nd team in the area and certainly they don't need JB to do it. The notion that he and he alone is the only person capable of owning the franchise is absurd. That is his PR machine lying once again. When Steve Stavros sold TML who in the world would have claimed Larry Tannenbaum and the Ontario Teachers Union Pension Fund were the only entities capable of owning TML? Its absurd to think nobody else would be interested or have the $$$.

JB could have bought the Pens and kept them in PGH and if he played be the rules he would have been 1st in line to buy an expansion franchise in Ontario. Craig Leopold owned the Preds for a while but he really wanted a team in MIN, so the NHL let him sell the Preds and buy the Wild when they came on the market. Do you really think Jeff Vinik came to the NHL and said he had to have the TBL and Matt Hulsizer said he had to have PHX? It doesn't work that way. They court Bettman & the BOG and vice versa and when an opportunity to purchase a franchise becomes available they take it. There are guys like Pegula that want a franchise in their local market, but he is going to pay a premium at ~ $160M to $175M to buy BUF and that is with Golisano being motivated to sell.

JB's non-compliance with rules isn't limited to the NHL. RIM has been sued multiple times (and settled because they stole IP) for patent infringement. Obviously JB has been successful doing things that way in the Tech world, but that doesn't mean he can get away with it in the NHL where franchise ownership & transfers are approved/controlled by a super-majority of the other owners.

Ron Joyce understands the reality. The NHL controls its franchises. End of story. This article is dated before the courts ruled the NHL is not an illegal cartel. Once again JB was wrong. Its also ironic that Joyce thinks Hamilton is incapable of sustaining an NHL franchise with corporate support:

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/stor ... id=1578428

When did JB claim the NHL was going to let him move the Pens to Hamilton?

What "rules" are you referring to? Are these similar to the "rules" that allow certain players to get away from instances without any repurcussion, while others recieve suspensions?

Joyce has half the amount of money that Ballsillie does, and if he wanted to own a team in Hamilton, he'd have to spend half of that before the team even played a game. That's not something many people want to take on.

Hamilton has plenty of businesses (HHS, Dofasco, Mac, Mohawk, Fox 40 International Inc., Pioneer Petroleum, AIC Limited, John Deere Ltd, and Dell Pharmacy to name a few)

Wait, I'm a billionaire and you're going to try to force me to buy a team in place that makes zero dollars (that you put there because of the "opportunity for growth") rather than put the team into a market where it can be a guaranteed money maker? Who do you think you are? I'm worth more money than 10 of your franchises combined. You should be trying to get me into your club at all costs.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:04 am

Physical_Graffiti wrote:I just don't see how it can be good for a league to have 9,000 people at an arena, when you could easily have 19,000 in a another area.


Because, as Draftnik said, it's the corporate dollars that drive the NHL, not the few thousand the fans spend. And also, if the NHL ever wants a better TV contract, they will need to be in large US metro areas to leverage anything, not small Canadian cities that will be watching regardless if a team is there or not.

It's all about the money, and TV and Corporations bring it. Look at the winter classic. All the lower seats were sold to corporations, not the STHs, and the game time, etc was determined by NBC.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:21 pm

newarenanow wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:I just don't see how it can be good for a league to have 9,000 people at an arena, when you could easily have 19,000 in a another area.


Because, as Draftnik said, it's the corporate dollars that drive the NHL, not the few thousand the fans spend.

And also, if the NHL ever wants a better TV contract, they will need to be in large US metro areas to leverage anything, not small Canadian cities that will be watching regardless if a team is there or not.

It's all about the money, and TV and Corporations bring it. Look at the winter classic. All the lower seats were sold to corporations, not the STHs, and the game time, etc was determined by NBC.

So Phoenix isn't bankrupt because no one shows up to games? Got it.

All of the "small Canadian cities" that I listed previously had NHL teams. It's not as though I listed Chilliwack
BC as a place for an NHL team, they're major Canadian cities.

You aren't going to make money if no one in your area is watching - regardless of whether they're not watching at home or at the arena the fact is that they aren't watching.

I see no reason as to why moving 1-3 teams in failing markets to Canadian cities would be a bad thing, by simply the removing of negatives from the pot.
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