Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:05 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:Bettman was never going to let the Pens leave PGH. They were never a portable franchise. The whole arena slots saga was a sideshow. The Pens ended up getting one of the most 1-sided deals in the entire NHL. CEC is a license to print $$$ and that is before the Pens get to develop the 10 acres of adjacent land. There was no reason for the NHL to abandon this market. Its one of the top US markets on a per -capita basis.

JB claiming the NHL was going to let him buy the Pens and move them to Hamilton is a total lie.

The NHL doesn't need Balsillie or a 2nd team in the GTA or Golden Horseshoe. The owners would like the expansion fee, but other than that the NHL gains very little. The CBC and TSN national TV deals wouldn't increase. The market(s) are already heavily penetrated by the NHL. There would be additional ticket revenue, but at the same time it will devalue the TML and BUF tickets because more supply would enter the market to compete with some of the same demand. The same applies to RSN TV $$$ because a 2nd team would certainly cut into the value of TML TV deals. There is no burning need for the NHL to place a 2nd team in the area and certainly they don't need JB to do it. The notion that he and he alone is the only person capable of owning the franchise is absurd. That is his PR machine lying once again. When Steve Stavros sold TML who in the world would have claimed Larry Tannenbaum and the Ontario Teachers Union Pension Fund were the only entities capable of owning TML? Its absurd to think nobody else would be interested or have the $$$.

JB could have bought the Pens and kept them in PGH and if he played be the rules he would have been 1st in line to buy an expansion franchise in Ontario. Craig Leopold owned the Preds for a while but he really wanted a team in MIN, so the NHL let him sell the Preds and buy the Wild when they came on the market. Do you really think Jeff Vinik came to the NHL and said he had to have the TBL and Matt Hulsizer said he had to have PHX? It doesn't work that way. They court Bettman & the BOG and vice versa and when an opportunity to purchase a franchise becomes available they take it. There are guys like Pegula that want a franchise in their local market, but he is going to pay a premium at ~ $160M to $175M to buy BUF and that is with Golisano being motivated to sell.

JB's non-compliance with rules isn't limited to the NHL. RIM has been sued multiple times (and settled because they stole IP) for patent infringement. Obviously JB has been successful doing things that way in the Tech world, but that doesn't mean he can get away with it in the NHL where franchise ownership & transfers are approved/controlled by a super-majority of the other owners.

Ron Joyce understands the reality. The NHL controls its franchises. End of story. This article is dated before the courts ruled the NHL is not an illegal cartel. Once again JB was wrong. Its also ironic that Joyce thinks Hamilton is incapable of sustaining an NHL franchise with corporate support:

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/stor ... id=1578428

When did JB claim the NHL was going to let him move the Pens to Hamilton?

What "rules" are you referring to? Are these similar to the "rules" that allow certain players to get away from instances without any repurcussion, while others recieve suspensions?

Joyce has half the amount of money that Ballsillie does, and if he wanted to own a team in Hamilton, he'd have to spend half of that before the team even played a game. That's not something many people want to take on.

Hamilton has plenty of businesses (HHS, Dofasco, Mac, Mohawk, Fox 40 International Inc., Pioneer Petroleum, AIC Limited, John Deere Ltd, and Dell Pharmacy to name a few)

Wait, I'm a billionaire and you're going to try to force me to buy a team in place that makes zero dollars (that you put there because of the "opportunity for growth") rather than put the team into a market where it can be a guaranteed money maker? Who do you think you are? I'm worth more money than 10 of your franchises combined. You should be trying to get me into your club at all costs.


The term sheet presented to JB regarding the Pens sale prohibited him from leaving PGH for 7 years. Balsillie refused to keep the Pens in PGH and work on alternative arena funding if the Isle of Capri slots proposal lost (it did):

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06349/746509-100.stm

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2913607

The NHL was prepared to take the team over if JB didn't want to remain in PGH under those terms but JB refused. In the end, the Pens ended up with one of the most lucrative 1-sided arena deals in the NHL.

The NHL does not need JB. JB needs the NHL.

This thread has really jumped the shark. The NHL will never sell a team to Balsillie so rehashing the events of the past is pointless.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:35 pm

Draftnik wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:Bettman was never going to let the Pens leave PGH. They were never a portable franchise. The whole arena slots saga was a sideshow. The Pens ended up getting one of the most 1-sided deals in the entire NHL. CEC is a license to print $$$ and that is before the Pens get to develop the 10 acres of adjacent land. There was no reason for the NHL to abandon this market. Its one of the top US markets on a per -capita basis.

JB claiming the NHL was going to let him buy the Pens and move them to Hamilton is a total lie.

The NHL doesn't need Balsillie or a 2nd team in the GTA or Golden Horseshoe. The owners would like the expansion fee, but other than that the NHL gains very little. The CBC and TSN national TV deals wouldn't increase. The market(s) are already heavily penetrated by the NHL. There would be additional ticket revenue, but at the same time it will devalue the TML and BUF tickets because more supply would enter the market to compete with some of the same demand. The same applies to RSN TV $$$ because a 2nd team would certainly cut into the value of TML TV deals. There is no burning need for the NHL to place a 2nd team in the area and certainly they don't need JB to do it. The notion that he and he alone is the only person capable of owning the franchise is absurd. That is his PR machine lying once again. When Steve Stavros sold TML who in the world would have claimed Larry Tannenbaum and the Ontario Teachers Union Pension Fund were the only entities capable of owning TML? Its absurd to think nobody else would be interested or have the $$$.

JB could have bought the Pens and kept them in PGH and if he played be the rules he would have been 1st in line to buy an expansion franchise in Ontario. Craig Leopold owned the Preds for a while but he really wanted a team in MIN, so the NHL let him sell the Preds and buy the Wild when they came on the market. Do you really think Jeff Vinik came to the NHL and said he had to have the TBL and Matt Hulsizer said he had to have PHX? It doesn't work that way. They court Bettman & the BOG and vice versa and when an opportunity to purchase a franchise becomes available they take it. There are guys like Pegula that want a franchise in their local market, but he is going to pay a premium at ~ $160M to $175M to buy BUF and that is with Golisano being motivated to sell.

JB's non-compliance with rules isn't limited to the NHL. RIM has been sued multiple times (and settled because they stole IP) for patent infringement. Obviously JB has been successful doing things that way in the Tech world, but that doesn't mean he can get away with it in the NHL where franchise ownership & transfers are approved/controlled by a super-majority of the other owners.

Ron Joyce understands the reality. The NHL controls its franchises. End of story. This article is dated before the courts ruled the NHL is not an illegal cartel. Once again JB was wrong. Its also ironic that Joyce thinks Hamilton is incapable of sustaining an NHL franchise with corporate support:

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/stor ... id=1578428

When did JB claim the NHL was going to let him move the Pens to Hamilton?

What "rules" are you referring to? Are these similar to the "rules" that allow certain players to get away from instances without any repurcussion, while others recieve suspensions?

Joyce has half the amount of money that Ballsillie does, and if he wanted to own a team in Hamilton, he'd have to spend half of that before the team even played a game. That's not something many people want to take on.

Hamilton has plenty of businesses (HHS, Dofasco, Mac, Mohawk, Fox 40 International Inc., Pioneer Petroleum, AIC Limited, John Deere Ltd, and Dell Pharmacy to name a few)

Wait, I'm a billionaire and you're going to try to force me to buy a team in place that makes zero dollars (that you put there because of the "opportunity for growth") rather than put the team into a market where it can be a guaranteed money maker? Who do you think you are? I'm worth more money than 10 of your franchises combined. You should be trying to get me into your club at all costs.


The term sheet presented to JB regarding the Pens sale prohibited him from leaving PGH for 7 years. Balsillie refused to keep the Pens in PGH and work on alternative arena funding if the Isle of Capri slots proposal lost (it did):

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06349/746509-100.stm

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2913607

The NHL was prepared to take the team over if JB didn't want to remain in PGH under those terms but JB refused. In the end, the Pens ended up with one of the most lucrative 1-sided arena deals in the NHL.

The NHL does not need JB. JB needs the NHL.

This thread has really jumped the shark. The NHL will never sell a team to Balsillie so rehashing the events of the past is pointless.

You have yet to show me where JB claimed the NHL was going to let him buy the Pens and move them to Hamilton.


From your link:
Among the NHL's several stipulations, sources close to the sale process said, are that Mr. Balsillie promise to keep the club in Pittsburgh regardless of the arena situation, and that he agree to contingencies for the NHL to step in and take over ownership or management of the team.


This is the NHL altering the deal: What owner in there right mind would agree to those stipulations? Especially to a team without a viable arena?

The NHL needs people with money and a passion for the game. Balsillie happens to be one of those people.

I already agreed with you on this earlier in the thread: Balsillie's not going to own an NHL team.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:40 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:So Phoenix isn't bankrupt because no one shows up to games? Got it.

All of the "small Canadian cities" that I listed previously had NHL teams. It's not as though I listed Chilliwack
BC as a place for an NHL team, they're major Canadian cities.

You aren't going to make money if no one in your area is watching - regardless of whether they're not watching at home or at the arena the fact is that they aren't watching.

I see no reason as to why moving 1-3 teams in failing markets to Canadian cities would be a bad thing, by simply the removing of negatives from the pot.


Phoenix is in financial trouble due to a horrible lease agreement and a horrible location of their arena.

As for canadian cities previously having teams, there is a reason why they moved. They weren't able to get it done financially.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:12 pm

newarenanow wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:So Phoenix isn't bankrupt because no one shows up to games? Got it.

All of the "small Canadian cities" that I listed previously had NHL teams. It's not as though I listed Chilliwack
BC as a place for an NHL team, they're major Canadian cities.

You aren't going to make money if no one in your area is watching - regardless of whether they're not watching at home or at the arena the fact is that they aren't watching.

I see no reason as to why moving 1-3 teams in failing markets to Canadian cities would be a bad thing, by simply the removing of negatives from the pot.


Phoenix is in financial trouble due to a horrible lease agreement and a horrible location of their arena.

As for canadian cities previously having teams, there is a reason why they moved. They weren't able to get it done financially.

You could build an arena anywhere in Hamilton and people would show up for an NHL game.

Quebec moved because of the lack of a new arena, Aubut selling out to the investors, and the difference between the Canadian and American Dollars'.

Winnipeg failed because of huge increase in salaries (no longer possible with the new CBA).

Hamilton didn't fail as a market: The teams' owner refused to give the players a raise, and as a result they refused to play, which led to the franchise's dissolution.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:15 pm

Look at all of your reasons, they have to do with money, whether it is currency, salaries, etc.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:21 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:You have yet to show me where JB claimed the NHL was going to let him buy the Pens and move them to Hamilton.


From your link:
Among the NHL's several stipulations, sources close to the sale process said, are that Mr. Balsillie promise to keep the club in Pittsburgh regardless of the arena situation, and that he agree to contingencies for the NHL to step in and take over ownership or management of the team.


This is the NHL altering the deal: What owner in there right mind would agree to those stipulations? Especially to a team without a viable arena?

The NHL needs people with money and a passion for the game. Balsillie happens to be one of those people.

I already agreed with you on this earlier in the thread: Balsillie's not going to own an NHL team.


Balsillie only agreed to keep the Pens in PGH if IoC won the slots license. He refused to sign the consent agreement that would keep the Pens in PGH to negotiate an alternate arena. Obviously the NHL was never going to let him relocate the Pens.

JB "assuming" the Pens were portable until he received the consent agreement is nonsense. Only a fool would think that Bettman was going to let the Pens leave. The whole arena saga was a farce designed to scare the public enough that it gave political leaders the ability to grant the Pens everything they wanted. The outcome was crystal clear before the process started and anybody that read this board during that time period can attest to my comments regarding the certainty of a new arena. It isn't revisionist history. The KC trip was a ruse and Lemieux even admitted it after the fact. PGH has always been a great NHL market. The problems were based on excessive debt service.

If JB wouldn't agree to keep the Pens in PGH where do you think he wanted to take them? He tried to take the Preds and Yotes to Hamilton so its obvious his intention was to take the Pens to Hamilton.

The consent agreement for the NHL to take over the team from JB removed his risk. The NHL would have sold it to somebody else once the new arena was in place and JB would have got his $$$ back.

Its 100% obvious that JB is only interested in teams he thought could be hijacked to Hamilton. The Pens were in the last year of their lease when JB made his offer. The Preds were close to triggering a clause to break their lease because their attendance fell below a predetermined level. The Yotes were in bankruptcy court and JB's plan was to terminate the lease through the bankruptcy process.

The NHL is a franchiser. Balsillie can't buy a franchise and move it wherever he wants. That is the reality of owning a franchise. Is Balsillie stupid? Obviously not. He knows what he's tried to do violates franchise agreements. Could Balsillie buy a Tim Horton's from some remote village in the Yukon Territory and transfer it to the busy, wealth laden Toronto financial district? Obviously not. Tim Horton's controls the location of their franchises and how territorial rights are granted/valued/franchised. The NHL is doing the exact same thing any franchiser does within their perfectly legal rights of granting conditional franchises.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby thepittman on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:36 pm

If this team moves anywhere it's going to stay in the US market to try to build more new fans to the sport. Phoenix as the choice of a city just had failure written all over it.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:43 pm

Quebec & Winnipeg had mediocre-poor attendance. The numbers are in a link I posted earlier in this thread. The currency differential since they left would help to some extent, but neither metro area had the corporate presence give the Nords and Jets enough $$$ to be profitable.

The dynamics of building & operating arenas in Canada is much different than in the US. It isn't very hard to get a free arena here. In Canada that isn't the case. Quebec City just tried to get one and it basically came down to them needing to win a Winter Olympics bid to receive full government $$$. Plus in the US the arenas have very favorable tax & operational characteristics for the teams. Quasi-government arena authorities "own" the arenas so they are tax exempt. The authorities pay the operating costs. In Canada TML, MON, etc pay millions of $$$ in property taxes on their buildings. They don't have government subsidies to operate the buildings.

Canada was on the NHL rocks until the price of oil went up. Remember the so called currency subsidization program? As the price of oil went up, the value of the CDN $ went up relative to the American $. Alberta (EDM & CGY) had an influx of wealth because of their oil sands so that wealth boosted corporate & fan support. Will the price of oil stay high in the next 10-20 years? Who knows. It could go higher if people go nuts in the middle east. It could go lower if the Brazilian offshore find is exploited and auto makers develop vehicles using alternative fuels.

The lagging America franchises typically are in Sun Belt markets. Those markets have had an influx of non-organic population growth so the people tend to be less interested in the Sun Belt franchises unless they are winning. As organic locally born population (relative to the non-organic growth) comes of age in these markets, those people will be more loyal to the franchises because they will have local roots. The growth of hockey in US markets is a slow process. It takes generations to take hold. The NHL has a long term vision at the BOG level to grow these markets. It isn't a short term strategy. That is why the BOG and Bettman fight to keep teams like the Yotes in Arizona.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:57 pm

Draftnik wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:You have yet to show me where JB claimed the NHL was going to let him buy the Pens and move them to Hamilton.


From your link:
Among the NHL's several stipulations, sources close to the sale process said, are that Mr. Balsillie promise to keep the club in Pittsburgh regardless of the arena situation, and that he agree to contingencies for the NHL to step in and take over ownership or management of the team.


This is the NHL altering the deal: What owner in there right mind would agree to those stipulations? Especially to a team without a viable arena?

The NHL needs people with money and a passion for the game. Balsillie happens to be one of those people.

I already agreed with you on this earlier in the thread: Balsillie's not going to own an NHL team.


Balsillie only agreed to keep the Pens in PGH if IoC won the slots license. He refused to sign the consent agreement that would keep the Pens in PGH to negotiate an alternate arena. Obviously the NHL was never going to let him relocate the Pens.

JB "assuming" the Pens were portable until he received the consent agreement is nonsense. Only a fool would think that Bettman was going to let the Pens leave. The whole arena saga was a farce designed to scare the public enough that it gave political leaders the ability to grant the Pens everything they wanted. The outcome was crystal clear before the process started and anybody that read this board during that time period can attest to my comments regarding the certainty of a new arena. It isn't revisionist history. The KC trip was a ruse and Lemieux even admitted it after the fact. PGH has always been a great NHL market. The problems were based on excessive debt service.

If JB wouldn't agree to keep the Pens in PGH where do you think he wanted to take them? He tried to take the Preds and Yotes to Hamilton so its obvious his intention was to take the Pens to Hamilton.

The consent agreement for the NHL to take over the team from JB removed his risk. The NHL would have sold it to somebody else once the new arena was in place and JB would have got his $$$ back.

Its 100% obvious that JB is only interested in teams he thought could be hijacked to Hamilton. The Pens were in the last year of their lease when JB made his offer. The Preds were close to triggering a clause to break their lease because their attendance fell below a predetermined level. The Yotes were in bankruptcy court and JB's plan was to terminate the lease through the bankruptcy process.

The NHL is a franchiser. Balsillie can't buy a franchise and move it wherever he wants. That is the reality of owning a franchise. Is Balsillie stupid? Obviously not. He knows what he's tried to do violates franchise agreements. Could Balsillie buy a Tim Horton's from some remote village in the Yukon Territory and transfer it to the busy, wealth laden Toronto financial district? Obviously not. Tim Horton's controls the location of their franchises and how territorial rights are granted/valued/franchised. The NHL is doing the exact same thing any franchiser does within their perfectly legal rights of granting conditional franchises.

I know what he wanted to do to with the Pens, but I don't feel he should be made into a villain for the NHL changing the deal.

As you said, Balsillie isn't stupid, and I doubt he wants to spend time losing 10+ mil a year on a franchise in a location that clearly doesn't watch the sport.

Well then the NHL clearly likes to lose money.

Tell that to the Colts.
Last edited by Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:03 pm

Seriously, Balsillie had a deal to buy the PITTSBURGH Penguins. The NHL never changed a thing. The notion they did is JB BS.

I explained how the NHL as a franchiser controls every expect of franchise location.

There is no way a smart (and obviously legally experienced) guy like JB wouldn't know that coming into the deal.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:14 pm

Draftnik wrote:Seriously, Balsillie had a deal to buy the PITTSBURGH Penguins. The NHL never changed a thing. The notion they did is JB BS.

I explained how the NHL as a franchiser controls every expect of franchise location.

There is no way a smart (and obviously legally experienced) guy like JB wouldn't know that coming into the deal.

You just quoted for me proof that they did, in fact, change the deal:
Among the NHL's several stipulations, sources close to the sale process said, are that Mr. Balsillie promise to keep the club in Pittsburgh regardless of the arena situation, and that he agree to contingencies for the NHL to step in and take over ownership or management of the team.


Adding stipulations is changing the deal.

So the NHL controls every aspect of franchise location but the NFL doesn't?

I don't get why you bolded "Pittsburgh": COMSAT bought the Quebec Nordiques, Jerry Colangelo bought the Winnipeg Jets, John McMullen purchased the Colorado Rockies, Norm Green purchased the Minnesota North Stars, etc...
Last edited by Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:21 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:Well then the NHL clearly likes to lose money.

Tell that to the Colts.


The NHL doesn't like to lose money.

That is why they are looking to make it work in some of these non-traditional US markets. Like Draftnik said, it takes time, usually a generation or so to build the roots for a franchise. But once it does take grasp, the NHL will have a large market which it will be entrenched.

They are willing to lose the money up front in the short term for long term potential gains.

Will 100% of the franchises pan out? No. But over time, these expansions/moves into non-traditional markets will become better and better.

But in a "what have you done for me lately" society, people are so quick to criticize.

I understand where you are coming from. I miss the Jets and Nordiques and Whalers. But they did not make money and drive up the value for the NHL, regardless of the fan support they have/had.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:36 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:Seriously, Balsillie had a deal to buy the PITTSBURGH Penguins. The NHL never changed a thing. The notion they did is JB BS.

I explained how the NHL as a franchiser controls every expect of franchise location.

There is no way a smart (and obviously legally experienced) guy like JB wouldn't know that coming into the deal.

You just quoted for me proof that they did, in fact, change the deal:
Among the NHL's several stipulations, sources close to the sale process said, are that Mr. Balsillie promise to keep the club in Pittsburgh regardless of the arena situation, and that he agree to contingencies for the NHL to step in and take over ownership or management of the team.


Adding stipulations is changing the deal.

So the NHL controls every aspect of franchise location but the NFL doesn't?


Taking this to the Nth degree is absurd. The "stipulation" that Balsillie couldn't move the Pens is nothing more than restating something that JB always knew. No NHL franchise can be relocated without super-majority BOG approval. That term was always an inherent part of the deal, just as its inherent that buying the Pittsburgh Penguins means JB would have been buying a franchise the NHL granted to the metro Pittsburgh area.

The NHL reiterating those points through the consent agreement is simply good lawyering because of Al Davis. The best way to prevent a rogue franchisee from challenging the legal rights of the franchiser is to never grant a franchise to the rogue.

According to Judge Redfield T Baum, the NHL does control every aspect of franchise location.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:37 pm

newarenanow wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:Well then the NHL clearly likes to lose money.

Tell that to the Colts.


The NHL doesn't like to lose money.

That is why they are looking to make it work in some of these non-traditional US markets. Like Draftnik said, it takes time, usually a generation or so to build the roots for a franchise. But once it does take grasp, the NHL will have a large market which it will be entrenched.

They are willing to lose the money up front in the short term for long term potential gains.

Will 100% of the franchises pan out? No. But over time, these expansions/moves into non-traditional markets will become better and better.

But in a "what have you done for me lately" society, people are so quick to criticize.

I understand where you are coming from. I miss the Jets and Nordiques and Whalers. But they did not make money and drive up the value for the NHL, regardless of the fan support they have/had.

I understand that not every franchise will pan out but having franchises that are going bankrupt left-right- and centre in a league that's looking for stability can not be a good thing.

I have no problem with moving to non-traditional hockey markets, but I believe the NHL should first try to tap unused resources (Hamilton), and when the league is healthy and strong,they should then attempt to expand and better market a complete product.

It just frustrates me that you a have the potential for a 350 million dollar franchise and you let it go to waste.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:I understand that not every franchise will pan out but having franchises that are going bankrupt left-right- and centre in a league that's looking for stability can not be a good thing.

I have no problem with moving to non-traditional hockey markets, but I believe the NHL should first try to tap unused resources (Hamilton), and when the league is healthy and strong,they should then attempt to expand and better market a complete product.

It just frustrates me that you a have the potential for a 350 million dollar franchise and you let it go to waste.


The thing is, Hamilton (and pretty much anywhere in Canada) is not truly an "untapped" resource.

I guarantee you more people, if not all of them are still watching the NHL on television or attending games in Toronto or Buffalo.

People are not doing that in Phoenix, SanJose/bay area, Raleigh, Tampa, Nashville, etc. Those are truly untapped sources which the NHL is trying to make inroads.

They already have the Canadian markets and most likely will never lose them regardless if a team is there or not.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Draftnik wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:Seriously, Balsillie had a deal to buy the PITTSBURGH Penguins. The NHL never changed a thing. The notion they did is JB BS.

I explained how the NHL as a franchiser controls every expect of franchise location.

There is no way a smart (and obviously legally experienced) guy like JB wouldn't know that coming into the deal.

You just quoted for me proof that they did, in fact, change the deal:
Among the NHL's several stipulations, sources close to the sale process said, are that Mr. Balsillie promise to keep the club in Pittsburgh regardless of the arena situation, and that he agree to contingencies for the NHL to step in and take over ownership or management of the team.


Adding stipulations is changing the deal.

So the NHL controls every aspect of franchise location but the NFL doesn't?


Taking this to the Nth degree is absurd. The "stipulation" that Balsillie couldn't move the Pens is nothing more than restating something that JB always knew. No NHL franchise can be relocated without super-majority BOG approval. That term was always an inherent part of the deal, just as its inherent that buying the Pittsburgh Penguins means JB would have been buying a franchise the NHL granted to the metro Pittsburgh area.

The NHL reiterating those points through the consent agreement is simply good lawyering because of Al Davis. The best way to prevent a rogue franchisee from challenging the legal rights of the franchiser is to never grant a franchise to the rogue.

According to Judge Redfield T Baum, the NHL does control every aspect of franchise location.

So why were the previous franchises that I listed allowed to be moved?

How is the NHL any different from the NFL? Why can a franchise in one league move without consent, but not in another?
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:45 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:I don't get why you bolded "Pittsburgh": COMSAT bought the Quebec Nordiques, Jerry Colangelo bought the Winnipeg Jets, John McMullen purchased the Colorado Rockies, Norm Green purchased the Minnesota North Stars, etc...


You don't seriously think Nords & Jets were bought without the new ownership groups knowing they had BOG approval to move. That is what good partners do. They tell their partners their intentions before the deal. If JB went before the BOG and told them he was going to move the Pens to Hamilton if IoC didn't win the slots license, he never would have received approval.

This is absurd. I get it. You live in Hamilton and you are POed you don't have a team, but JB never had a chance the way he tried to do these shady deals. The only possible shot he had was via the bankruptcy process in Phoenix because the NHL had some exposure before the Baum decision.

I think there will eventually be a compromise with an expansion franchise granted west of Hamilton. Somewhere that is far enough to alleviate TML & BUF concerns & indemnification, and also take advantage of the Kitchener, Waterloo, London, etc region.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:50 pm

newarenanow wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:I understand that not every franchise will pan out but having franchises that are going bankrupt left-right- and centre in a league that's looking for stability can not be a good thing.

I have no problem with moving to non-traditional hockey markets, but I believe the NHL should first try to tap unused resources (Hamilton), and when the league is healthy and strong,they should then attempt to expand and better market a complete product.

It just frustrates me that you a have the potential for a 350 million dollar franchise and you let it go to waste.


The thing is, Hamilton (and pretty much anywhere in Canada) is not truly an "untapped" resource.

I guarantee you more people, if not all of them are still watching the NHL on television or attending games in Toronto or Buffalo.

People are not doing that in Phoenix, SanJose/bay area, Raleigh, Tampa, Nashville, etc. Those are truly untapped sources which the NHL is trying to make inroads.

They already have the Canadian markets and most likely will never lose them regardless if a team is there or not.

By that definition, why doesn't the NHL just put teams in China, Brazil, and India if they truly wish to "grow the game"? And why are there teams in Montreal, Toronto, and Boston: Those franchises aren't really "growing the game"?

It should be addition by subtraction if you move a team from any of the listed places to Hamilton.
Last edited by Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:51 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:So why were the previous franchises that I listed allowed to be moved?

How is the NHL any different from the NFL? Why can a franchise in one league move without consent, but not in another?


I've never seen the NFL's (or the NHL's) articles of incorporation or whatever document governs their franchises, but I expect the NFL rewrote them/it after Al Davis moved the Raiders. Maybe the AFL/NFL thing had an impact, maybe the NFL had dumber lawyers than the NHL. In the end, it doesn't make a difference because the Raiders case clearly wasn't considered legal precedent for the Coyotes case.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:55 pm

Draftnik wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:So why were the previous franchises that I listed allowed to be moved?

How is the NHL any different from the NFL? Why can a franchise in one league move without consent, but not in another?


I've never seen the NFL's (or the NHL's) articles of incorporation or whatever document governs their franchises, but I expect the NFL rewrote them/it after Al Davis moved the Raiders. Maybe the AFL/NFL thing had an impact, maybe the NFL had dumber lawyers than the NHL. In the end, it doesn't make a difference because the Raiders case clearly wasn't considered legal precedent for the Coyotes case.

Wasn't that only because the BoG said they hadn't approved JB as an owner?
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:58 pm

Draftnik wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:I don't get why you bolded "Pittsburgh": COMSAT bought the Quebec Nordiques, Jerry Colangelo bought the Winnipeg Jets, John McMullen purchased the Colorado Rockies, Norm Green purchased the Minnesota North Stars, etc...


You don't seriously think Nords & Jets were bought without the new ownership groups knowing they had BOG approval to move. That is what good partners do. They tell their partners their intentions before the deal. If JB went before the BOG and told them he was going to move the Pens to Hamilton if IoC didn't win the slots license, he never would have received approval.

This is absurd. I get it. You live in Hamilton and you are POed you don't have a team, but JB never had a chance the way he tried to do these shady deals. The only possible shot he had was via the bankruptcy process in Phoenix because the NHL had some exposure before the Baum decision.
I think there will eventually be a compromise with an expansion franchise granted west of Hamilton. Somewhere that is far enough to alleviate TML & BUF concerns & indemnification, and also take advantage of the Kitchener, Waterloo, London, etc region.

I thought I already said that?

Lol "TML's concerns" lol
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:22 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:So why were the previous franchises that I listed allowed to be moved?

How is the NHL any different from the NFL? Why can a franchise in one league move without consent, but not in another?


I've never seen the NFL's (or the NHL's) articles of incorporation or whatever document governs their franchises, but I expect the NFL rewrote them/it after Al Davis moved the Raiders. Maybe the AFL/NFL thing had an impact, maybe the NFL had dumber lawyers than the NHL. In the end, it doesn't make a difference because the Raiders case clearly wasn't considered legal precedent for the Coyotes case.

Wasn't that only because the BoG said they hadn't approved JB as an owner?


The NHL unanimously rejected JB's application to buy the Yotes. JB challenged the rejection and Baum affirmed the NHL's right to control franchise purchases & locations, regardless of circumstances including bankruptcy.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:27 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:I understand that not every franchise will pan out but having franchises that are going bankrupt left-right- and centre in a league that's looking for stability can not be a good thing.

I have no problem with moving to non-traditional hockey markets, but I believe the NHL should first try to tap unused resources (Hamilton), and when the league is healthy and strong,they should then attempt to expand and better market a complete product.

It just frustrates me that you a have the potential for a 350 million dollar franchise and you let it go to waste.


The thing is, Hamilton (and pretty much anywhere in Canada) is not truly an "untapped" resource.

I guarantee you more people, if not all of them are still watching the NHL on television or attending games in Toronto or Buffalo.

People are not doing that in Phoenix, SanJose/bay area, Raleigh, Tampa, Nashville, etc. Those are truly untapped sources which the NHL is trying to make inroads.

They already have the Canadian markets and most likely will never lose them regardless if a team is there or not.

By that definition, why doesn't the NHL just put teams in China, Brazil, and India if they truly wish to "grow the game"? And why are there teams in Montreal, Toronto, and Boston: Those franchises aren't really "growing the game"?

It should be addition by subtraction if you move a team from any of the listed places to Hamilton.


Cost prohibited and scheduling constraints. Do you know how much it would cost to fly the team to China, Brazil, and india? And the tax of travel on those players. Plus no one over here would be watching those games due to time differences.

Montreal, Toronto and Boston are established franchises that have been around forever in large markets that the NHL is striving for. Hamilton is unfortunate that it didn't already have one.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:27 pm

Draftnik wrote:The NHL unanimously rejected JB's application to buy the Yotes. JB challenged the rejection and Baum affirmed the NHL's right to control franchise purchases & locations, regardless of circumstances including bankruptcy.

Which doesn't make much since, since they had approved him before.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:30 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:The NHL unanimously rejected JB's application to buy the Yotes. JB challenged the rejection and Baum affirmed the NHL's right to control franchise purchases & locations, regardless of circumstances including bankruptcy.

Which doesn't make much since, since they had approved him before.


They learned their lesson via his backdoor agreements with the Pens and Predators sale.

They weren't going to do it again.
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