If Wayne Gretzky had never scored a goal...

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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:51 pm

Except he probably had more than 200 assists from rebounds. :pop:
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby DropEmJayBird on Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:10 pm

columbia wrote:
npv708 wrote:Its almost as if he played mostly against goaltenders with little padding who stood up and kicked at the puck instead of diving around on the ice to stop it.

:pop:


Watch Lemieux's first goal against the Bruins. :lol:


at least he deked the guy.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Draftnik on Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:33 pm

joopen wrote:On another note... Wayne Gretzky's daughter... yes please


:lol:

I thought that was what this thread was about based on the title.

I had some trepidation when I opened the tweet from Deadspin about the Great One's daughter. I was relieved to find out she is 22. Her friend from the Deadspin photo was very impressive as well.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Kaizer on Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:34 pm

in my highly researched and educated point of view as to whether gretzky or lemieux is better...

lemieux is a penguin, so **** gretzky.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Rylan on Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:47 pm

:lol:
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Zach6668 on Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:13 am

mikey287 wrote:
npv708 wrote:
mikey287 wrote:
npv708 wrote:In addition, the Oilers signing of Anton Gustafsson (stand-out Swede) was rejected.


Damn you for reminding me of one of my many busts in my keeper league drafts! You mean his father, whatever his name is, I think?
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby knives of ice on Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:20 am

perhaps the great one's best gift to society

his daughter and her twitter account pics

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/9612 ... you-to-see
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby steelhammer on Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:05 am

Lemieux missed significant time during his peak seasons, missed ages 32-34 and returned to action from age 35-40 when his production was much lower. If you compare the common seasons (by age) of Gretzky and Lemieux, the stat lines are as follows:

Gretzky: 1.95 points/game, 0.64 goals/game, average of 7.05 goals scored per game during era
Lemieux: 1.91 points/game, 0.77 goals/game, average of 6.64 goals scored per game during era

Given the discrepancy in era, teammates, health, etc. Lemieux is clearly the more superior player. The points/game gives a slight nod to Gretzky, but he was only 1.87% higher than Lemieux even though league-wide scoring was 6.23% higher during his era. Lemieux on the other hand had a much greater goal-scoring efficiency that was over 20% higher than Gretzky even though goal scoring was significantly lower in Lemieux's era (as noted above).
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby steelhammer on Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:09 am

For anyone interested in the data used above: Lemieux/Gretzky, age, games, goals, points, league-wide goals/game.


19 73 43 100 7.77 19 79 51 137 7.03
20 79 48 141 7.94 20 80 55 109 7.69
21 63 54 107 7.34 21 80 92 212 8.03
22 77 70 168 7.43 22 80 71 196 7.73
23 76 85 199 7.48 23 74 87 205 7.89
24 59 45 123 7.37 24 80 73 208 7.77
25 26 19 45 6.91 25 80 52 215 7.94
26 64 44 131 6.96 26 79 62 183 7.34
27 60 69 160 7.25 27 64 40 149 7.43
28 22 17 37 6.48 28 78 54 168 7.48
30 70 69 161 6.29 30 78 41 163 6.91
31 76 50 122 5.83 31 74 31 121 6.96
35 43 35 76 5.51 35 80 23 102 6.29
36 24 6 31 5.24 36 82 25 97 5.83
37 67 28 91 5.31 37 82 23 90 5.28
38 10 1 9 5.14 38 70 9 62 5.27

Edit: well, that didn't come out very clean but it's there.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby count2infinity on Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:57 am

I wonder what this debate would look like among non-pens fans...
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:15 am

That this was put into the article irritates me:

Just the extra 970 points is more than the career totals of:

•Maurice Richard—965 (goals + assists) Hall of Fame
•Bobby Orr—915 (goals + assists) Hall of Fame


Adam Oates had more assists than those two had points, does that mean he's a better player?

Also, neither of those players played in the "run N' gun" 80s (not saying he's not better than these two, just that I don't agree with the logic).
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Rylan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:12 am

Physical_Graffiti wrote:That this was put into the article irritates me:

Just the extra 970 points is more than the career totals of:

•Maurice Richard—965 (goals + assists) Hall of Fame
•Bobby Orr—915 (goals + assists) Hall of Fame


Adam Oates had more assists than those two had points, does that mean he's a better player?

Also, neither of those players played in the "run N' gun" 80s (not saying he's not better than these two, just that I don't agree with the logic).


Bobby Orr played what 12 seasons. And oh yeah he was a defenseman.

But Gretzky wins cause his daughter is absolutely smokin hott.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby André on Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:38 am

I don't like Howe and the top four sentiment. I'd keep it at a top three of Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby JeffDFD on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:12 am

Zach6668 wrote:Yeah, but how many of those assists were off of rebounds???


This is important to the title of this thread. Ha!

Now go back to your regularly scheduled arguing...
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby JS© on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:25 am

count2infinity wrote:He would STILL be the NHL's all time points leader as he had more assists in his career than anyone had goals and assists combined! just incredible...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5791 ... sport-ever


Secondary Gretz :wink:
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby mikey287 on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:48 am

André wrote:I don't like Howe and the top four sentiment. I'd keep it at a top three of Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr.


I'll address some more of the rest of the thread after work...but Howe is closer to 3 than he is to 4...

He dominated like few others...20 straight seasons being top-5 scoring...I mean, we talk about pro-rated points and what-if's with Mario...Gordie Howe actually did it...led the league in goals 5 times (including 3 in a row), led the league in points 6 times (including 4 in a row)...led the league in playoff points 6 times...

Hell, for whatever it's worth, he beats Gretzky in goals if both of their WHA + NHL seasons are combined 975 to 940. Howe scored essentially 1,000 professional goals when the "virtually untouchable" benchmark is half that...

Versus his peers, well, try and top this...

1948-49 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1949-50 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1950-51 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1951-52 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1952-53 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1953-54 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1955-56 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1956-57 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1957-58 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1958-59 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1959-60 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1960-61 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1961-62 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1962-63 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1963-64 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1964-65 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1965-66 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1966-67 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1967-68 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1968-69 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1969-70 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1973-74 WHA WHA All-Star Team (1st)
1974-75 WHA WHA All-Star Team (1st)

versus Mario...

1984-85 NHL NHL All-Rookie Team (1st)
1985-86 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1986-87 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1987-88 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1988-89 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1991-92 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1992-93 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1995-96 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1996-97 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
2000-01 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)


And then the, buts come out for Mario...but points per game, but if he was healthy...well, Howe nearly died on the rink in 1950 and he played in a "chippy" era to say the least and still dominated his competition. And for the point-per-game touters...Lemieux led the NHL in points per game 7 times and so did Howe...

In fact, Howe is closer to 2nd best all-time than he is 4th...he has the peak that's one of the best of all-time, prime that's one of the best of all-time and career that may be the best of all-time...he was better defensively than Gretzky and Lemieux, he was more physically intimidating than Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr and unlike those 3 he didn't get to take advantage of a league watered down by expansion...every night, Howe played the 5 best defensive pairings in the world and the 5 best goalies in the world, every night...he didn't get to play the over-expansion of the late 60's and early 70's...he didn't get to play the Sharks, Lightning, Senators, etc. of the 90's...

And on top of all that, scoring was harder to come by then than any time in NHL history since the forward pass was introduced. Most seasons hovered around 5 goals per game (less than clutch-and-grab era even) and sometimes even dipped under 5.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby SoupOrSam on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:58 am

66 played less a lot less than 100% more times than not. This is the absolute biggest difference between the two to me and one that doesn't allow for fair assessment at all. Because of this there will always be a HUGE what-if.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby canaan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:08 am

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux


in that order, imo.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Staggy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:18 am

Mikey, I hear a lot of people say that Lemieux was the most talented player of all time. Would you agree with that? I never got a chance to see Gretzky play in the 80's and early 90's and the only video of him I've seen are from youtube, and any player will look good in their top 10 goal clips.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:30 am

Rylan wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:That this was put into the article irritates me:

Just the extra 970 points is more than the career totals of:

•Maurice Richard—965 (goals + assists) Hall of Fame
•Bobby Orr—915 (goals + assists) Hall of Fame


Adam Oates had more assists than those two had points, does that mean he's a better player?

Also, neither of those players played in the "run N' gun" 80s (not saying he's not better than these two, just that I don't agree with the logic).


Bobby Orr played what 12 seasons. And oh yeah he was a defenseman.

But Gretzky wins cause his daughter is absolutely smokin hott.

That's part of what I'm saying brah: It's stupid of the writer to point that out to say how much better Gretzky was than Orr, imo.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby columbia on Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:33 am

Considering that a "different era" is often even factored into comparing 66 & 99, these conversations across all eras seem problematic.
I'm not one to think that the eras (and performances within) can be compared.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:44 am

columbia wrote:Considering that a "different era" is often even factored into comparing 66 & 99, these conversations across all eras seem problematic.
I'm not one to think that the eras (and performances within) can be compared.

Agreed
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby ulf on Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:02 pm

Rylan wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:That this was put into the article irritates me:

Just the extra 970 points is more than the career totals of:

•Maurice Richard—965 (goals + assists) Hall of Fame
•Bobby Orr—915 (goals + assists) Hall of Fame


Adam Oates had more assists than those two had points, does that mean he's a better player?

Also, neither of those players played in the "run N' gun" 80s (not saying he's not better than these two, just that I don't agree with the logic).


Bobby Orr played what 12 seasons. And oh yeah he was a defenseman.

But Gretzky wins cause his daughter is absolutely smokin hott.

yes. thank the lord for her twitter.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby André on Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:20 pm

Mikey287, on Howe:

Well of course he's up there, so I'll make this him vs Mario in order to justify leaving him behind the top three. And of course I'll use ifs regarding Mario, how could I not with the games he missed. I'm not doing any optimistic guesses, but rather very likely ones.

mikey287 wrote:20 straight seasons being top-5 scoring...


Argument 1: Five team league until 1967 when they added two. He was the best in a raw league consisting of about 100 players and was so for a very long time. (Also, it's not impossible at all that a healthy Mario would've pulled that off (see more on that further below)).

mikey287 wrote:...led the league in goals 5 times (including 3 in a row)


Argument 1 + a healthy Mario would very probably have topped that. This in a league with about 600 players (including the best from all over the world, not the local cliques Howe faced).

mikey287 wrote:led the league in points 6 times


Argument 1 + Mario would likely have done so 10+ times. This in a league with about 600 players (including the best from all over the world, not the local cliques Howe faced).

mikey287 wrote:and unlike those 3 he didn't get to take advantage of a league watered down by expansion...every night, Howe played the 5 best defensive pairings in the world and the 5 best goalies in the world, every night...he didn't get to play the over-expansion of the late 60's and early 70's...he didn't get to play the Sharks, Lightning, Senators, etc. of the 90's...


So scoring becoming easier vs some teams out weighs competing (for the individual scoring race) against 6 times as many players (including the best from all over the world, not the local cliques Howe faced) as Howe competed with? Never.

mikey287 wrote:And on top of all that, scoring was harder to come by then than any time in NHL history since the forward pass was introduced. Most seasons hovered around 5 goals per game (less than clutch-and-grab era even) and sometimes even dipped under 5.


Which makes his season average of about 85 points very impressive. No doubt he was the best of his era. Mario would've kept a season average of about 160 points for 13 years (84-97). Was the goals per game average at 10? Nah.

Howe's even more absurd than Francis when it comes to longevity. What we know of Lemieux however is that he scored at freakish levels in 85, and still did in 02 (40 points after 20 games). That's a 17 year span.

I actually think Howe's longevity is a pretty strong argument against him. That it was even possible to play at a high level for that long isn't exactly flattering for the NHL of that era. He was 51 when he came back and scored 40 points in 80 games. A 51 year old wouldn't survive a period in today's NHL, and that includes Mario (well not literally of course but it wouldn't be pretty).

Mario's the prime example of a player excelling in different eras. Throughout the 80s 2nd half he wasn't far behind Gretzky, and throughout the 90's he topped Gretzky. Also, lists showing points per game by a player in relation to the league's goals per game of the time leaves us with the two best (production wise, can't be stressed enough) seasons of all time being Mario's. There are different spins on those stats however, won't claim I'm an expert. Can't find the list now but I remember Howe representing one of the top 20 seasons.

Also, looking at peak seasons, those Howe have any standing out like Lemieux? Did he ever toy (production wise) with the rest of league? The scoring win margin thing you did, do that comparison between Howe and Lemieux.
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Re: If Wayne Gretzky had never taken a single shot on goal..

Postby Rylan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:34 pm

Why don't we just chose best player of a decade?

60s Howe
70s Orr
80s Gretzky
90s Lemieux
00s Jagr?
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