Top 100 NHL Players

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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Gaucho on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:20 pm

If you asked me who I'd rather have on my team, Jagr or Forsberg, I'd definitely say Jagr, no doubt about it.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby pittsports87 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:15 pm

Gaucho wrote:He wasn't as offensively gifted as Jagr, but his overall game put him right up there with him, imho. Foppa could kill a penalty all by himself.

This Forsberg argument is pretty much the exact one some people (including me) have used for Datsyuk today. He has the offensive skills but doesn't put up as big of numbers, but the goals he stops are just as big.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby shmenguin on Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:36 pm

in that late 90's early 2000 era, i thought it was...

jagr > forsberg >> everyone ele
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:09 pm

pittsports87 wrote:
Froggy wrote:isnt it a bit disingenuous to exclude ovechkin? i know his scoring is down the last couple years, but his body of work should mean something

Body of work should have little influence on ranking the best players right now. Ovechkin hasn't played like one of the best players in the league in almost 2 years now, no way should he be listed in the top 5 right now. So many players are better right now and have been for the last year+

He played like one of the best players in the world in his last playoff series...the time when it actually counts. I'd expect more of the same next time he plays in one.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby André on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:16 pm

I in no way implied Forsberg was up there with Gretzky and Lemieux. That's crazy achievement and production wise, and semi crazy when looking at prime capacity.

I have him tied with Jagr though. In my opinion they're both higher on the all time list than many would suggest. Forsberg and Jagr are my all time favourite players (together with Lemieux but I really missed his prime so it's not the same thing).
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby André on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:17 pm

pittsports87 wrote:
Gaucho wrote:He wasn't as offensively gifted as Jagr, but his overall game put him right up there with him, imho. Foppa could kill a penalty all by himself.

This Forsberg argument is pretty much the exact one some people (including me) have used for Datsyuk today. He has the offensive skills but doesn't put up as big of numbers, but the goals he stops are just as big.


Forsberg beats Datsyuk easily in pretty much any area save deking (where he's not that far behind).
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby pittsports87 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:22 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
pittsports87 wrote:
Froggy wrote:isnt it a bit disingenuous to exclude ovechkin? i know his scoring is down the last couple years, but his body of work should mean something

Body of work should have little influence on ranking the best players right now. Ovechkin hasn't played like one of the best players in the league in almost 2 years now, no way should he be listed in the top 5 right now. So many players are better right now and have been for the last year+

He played like one of the best players in the world in his last playoff series...the time when it actually counts. I'd expect more of the same next time he plays in one.

In Ovi's last playoff series he had 2 goals, 2 assists, and his team got swept by the Lightning. Didn't necessarily play like one of the best players in hockey.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:13 pm

pittsports87 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
pittsports87 wrote:
Froggy wrote:isnt it a bit disingenuous to exclude ovechkin? i know his scoring is down the last couple years, but his body of work should mean something

Body of work should have little influence on ranking the best players right now. Ovechkin hasn't played like one of the best players in the league in almost 2 years now, no way should he be listed in the top 5 right now. So many players are better right now and have been for the last year+

He played like one of the best players in the world in his last playoff series...the time when it actually counts. I'd expect more of the same next time he plays in one.

I didn't watch that series.

Fair enough
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby mikey287 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:22 pm

shmenguin wrote:in that late 90's early 2000 era, i thought it was...

jagr > forsberg >> everyone ele


Sakic? Hasek?
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:34 pm

mikey287 wrote:
shmenguin wrote:in that late 90's early 2000 era, i thought it was...

jagr > forsberg >> everyone ele


Sakic? Hasek?


Jagr > Sakic = Hasek > Forsberg IMO
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Mr. Colby on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:18 pm

Kraftster wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Put that way, Jagr wasn't in a tier with Gretzky and Lemieux either.


Agree.

Gaucho wrote:But Forsberg was in a tier with Jagr.


Disagree.

Gaucho wrote:He's a definite HOFer.


Agree.


Agree
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Rylan on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:22 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
pittsports87 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
pittsports87 wrote:
Froggy wrote:isnt it a bit disingenuous to exclude ovechkin? i know his scoring is down the last couple years, but his body of work should mean something

Body of work should have little influence on ranking the best players right now. Ovechkin hasn't played like one of the best players in the league in almost 2 years now, no way should he be listed in the top 5 right now. So many players are better right now and have been for the last year+

He played like one of the best players in the world in his last playoff series...the time when it actually counts. I'd expect more of the same next time he plays in one.

I didn't watch that series.

Fair enough


I was thinking the same thing. OV was a monster during the playoffs.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby brwi on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:44 pm

Rylan wrote:
I was thinking the same thing. OV was a monster during the playoffs.


He wasn't against the Habs as they pretty much contained him. How is it that he can be a "monster" in two playoff series last year when the fact is that he wasn't?
Is this like a lot of the media proclaiming Brodeur as an elite goaltender for several years when he wasn't anywhere close to "elite" and regularly outplayed in the playoffs? In other words...all hat, no cattle, and living off past reputation?

AO wasn't "the suck" in last year's playoffs, but he wasn't anything like an elite player either.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Rylan on Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:28 am

brwi wrote:
Rylan wrote:
I was thinking the same thing. OV was a monster during the playoffs.


He wasn't against the Habs as they pretty much contained him. How is it that he can be a "monster" in two playoff series last year when the fact is that he wasn't?
Is this like a lot of the media proclaiming Brodeur as an elite goaltender for several years when he wasn't anywhere close to "elite" and regularly outplayed in the playoffs? In other words...all hat, no cattle, and living off past reputation?

AO wasn't "the suck" in last year's playoffs, but he wasn't anything like an elite player either.


Crosby didn't play well against the Habs either.

OV was dangerous the whole series against the Lightening and was seemingly the only player who cared against them.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Desiato on Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:18 pm

Kraftster wrote:I just think Jagr was by far the best player of an era (clutch and grab) (not to mention a star in the end of one and beginning of another too). The star among the stars. I suppose that's probably some Penguins' bias talking, though, as its hard to see he was that head and shoulders above a player like Sakic during roughly the same time period.


If you exclude Jagr's first two seasons, his career loses a lot of its luster. He was entertaining after Mario retired, but didn't contribute to a team game that could win a cup. I rank Forsberg the most effective player of the late 90s over Jagr.

The teams that won the cup in the late 90s were lead by offensive players who sacrificed numbers for a conservative game: Yzerman, Sakic, Modano, Hull, etc... That's not what Jagr was doing.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby mikey287 on Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:23 pm

I'll ask what I ask everyone who participates in this type of discussion, so Desiato, your thoughts on Sakic and Hasek WRT to the last sentence of your first paragraph.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Pavel Bure on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:26 pm

Desiato wrote:
Kraftster wrote:I just think Jagr was by far the best player of an era (clutch and grab) (not to mention a star in the end of one and beginning of another too). The star among the stars. I suppose that's probably some Penguins' bias talking, though, as its hard to see he was that head and shoulders above a player like Sakic during roughly the same time period.


If you exclude Jagr's first two seasons, his career loses a lot of its luster. He was entertaining after Mario retired, but didn't contribute to a team game that could win a cup. I rank Forsberg the most effective player of the late 90s over Jagr.

The teams that won the cup in the late 90s were lead by offensive players who sacrificed numbers for a conservative game: Yzerman, Sakic, Modano, Hull, etc... That's not what Jagr was doing.

I watched Jagr put a Penguins team on his back with a badly hurt groin and will them to victory against the Devils. Mario and Gretzky withheld, Jagr was nothing short of the best in the clutch and grab era and one of the hardest workers on that Penguins team.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby André on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:31 pm

I have Forsberg and Jagr above Sakic. I always lean more against prime capacity (if displayed over a long period of time of course) than career/team achievements + total numbers.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby shmenguin on Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:21 pm

mikey287 wrote:
shmenguin wrote:in that late 90's early 2000 era, i thought it was...

jagr > forsberg >> everyone ele


Sakic? Hasek?


hasek? he's my favorite goalie of all time, but i can't compare goalies to skaters in this context. i guess you can if you think hasek was transcendent enough, but i can't see that with goalies.

with sakic, i guess my main qualifier is skill level and pure talent. no knock on sakic - he just wasn't forsberg. but i see the argument for sakic. he took the team to a cup without forsberg when he had his spleen problem. forsberg never achieved on his own like that. my opinion stands though.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby mikey287 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:35 am

Well, Hasek gets a rare nod at the Hart Trophy for a goalie (5 other times other than Hasek going back to 1923, one of them was a "we owe you one" to Al Rollins in '54; and the Theodore one in 2002 was a tie with Iginla that he won on first place votes). Not only did he get a rare one, but he got back to back! Against Jagr and against Forsberg in their respective primes and it was a run-away for Hasek each time...he finished 3rd the following year which is nothing to sneeze at either.

Hasek had one of the most dominant primes of all-time. He has to be recognized in this type of discussion, whether you consider him the best of the era or not, he still must be mentioned.

Forsberg was Euro-trained and Sakic is from Western Canada (Burnaby, BC to be exact), so while Forsberg may have had better technical skill, Sakic was also a very good defensive player and has one of the best shots in history. So, while maybe his skill wasn't as evident to the naked eye as Forsberg, Sakic certainly isn't far behind. He's readily recongized for his efforts as well. He also wins a Hart Trophy in direct competition to Forsberg.

Lemieux, Orr and Forsberg, more so the 1st and 3rd guys, are everyone's favorite "what if" story and they always seem to be blown out of proportion at some point or another. Tremendous player for sure and certainly in the discussion for best of this set of years in which we're discussing...but it's not near a runaway for anyone...
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:41 am

Desiato wrote:
Kraftster wrote:I just think Jagr was by far the best player of an era (clutch and grab) (not to mention a star in the end of one and beginning of another too). The star among the stars. I suppose that's probably some Penguins' bias talking, though, as its hard to see he was that head and shoulders above a player like Sakic during roughly the same time period.


If you exclude Jagr's first two seasons, his career loses a lot of its luster.


lol?
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Mongoose87 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:54 am

It's amazing how the revisionist history on here either make Jagr look like a saint or a nobody.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby André on Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:10 am

mikey287 wrote:Lemieux, Orr and Forsberg, more so the 1st and 3rd guys, are everyone's favorite "what if" story and they always seem to be blown out of proportion at some point or another. Tremendous player for sure and certainly in the discussion for best of this set of years in which we're discussing...but it's not near a runaway for anyone...


I don't agree it's blown out of proportion that often. Lemieux's of course in the top four all time debate and by some in the top two debate and I'm fine with both. Forsberg's by many considered top two with Jagr for about a ten year period and I guess I have them both in the top ten all time debate.

Also, I don't agree with your strict opinion "what if" scenarios aren't ok or that some players are being overhyped because of them. No one's talking about someone who was great one year only, or had great scoring averages over ten game seasons or anything like that. Punishing players who were elite for 10+ years because their total numbers were lowered by injuries is better? That would be more accurate and fair for this debate? Nah, no way.

I'll never put a Francis over a Forsberg. If Malkin retires tomorrow he's not as succesfull as Francis career wise (well in some ways that too) but he was still a better player than Francis, and so on.

And Sakic was awesome and is high on the all time list no doubt. Looking at peak capacity I'm not hard pushed to put both Jagr and Forsberg ahead of him, however. On Hasek I just have a hard time comparing between positions. He's my number one all time goalie, however. Based pretty much on the reasoning I use for skaters as well. I don't care if for example Roy had that many wins on the teams he were on. That and the cups make him one of the most successfull goalies ever, but not the best.

*Roy of course high on the list considering peak ability as well but you see my point. Disclaimer used for Francis as well. Heck of a guy to use as a "negative" example.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby André on Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:12 pm

An elaboration of my Forsberg case:

Peter Forsberg is 10th all time with 1.25 PPG. He scored 0.35 GPG, and is 4th all time with 0.9 APG.

In the playoffs he was at 1.13 PGP but 0.42 GPG. A telling stat as he always was a great goal scorer when he wanted to (and in many different ways). Come up with a definition of clutch games and check his stats in those they definitely go up. Especially his GPG.

Also, he was the PPG leader a couple of times both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

This while being a very physical center who for the better part of his career played a celebrated two way game. His prime was 95-06. This was also the 11 years during which he played the vast majority of his games (His GPG and PPG slighly lowered by 06-11). Now look at the league's GPG for that period: http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

It's very hard to overestimate Forsberg.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Rylan on Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:14 pm

Forsberg just seemed to be a prick.
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