Top 100 NHL Players

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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby mikey287 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:16 pm

At the PPG for Datsyuk remark: Datsyuk is 6th (200 game min.) at 1.09 (87, 8, 71, Jumbo, 68). Spezza, Sakic and the Sedins round out the top 10. Just for reference not taking a side...yet.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Kraftster on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:19 pm

mikey287 wrote:At the PPG for Datsyuk remark: Datsyuk is 6th (200 game min.) at 1.09 (87, 8, 71, Jumbo, 68). Spezza, Sakic and the Sedins round out the top 10. Just for reference not taking a side...yet.


Awesome, thanks. I figured we'd never be able to confirm.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Mr. Colby on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:21 pm

Toews probably belongs somewhere in the 8-12 range
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Froggy on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:24 pm

the thing with me, is that i think there are 3 or 4 really GREAT guys.... like best in the world. then from like 5-15, there are a bunch of really really good players, but it's hard to really seperate them... at least for me
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Mr. Colby on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:26 pm

1. Sid
T2. Malkin, Datsyuk
4. Stamkos
5. Chara
6. Giroux
7. The Sedins

From 9-100 is very debatable, but those 7 forwards are far above the rest. And Chara is far above the rest (Lidstrom is the only other D that could be debated)
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Kraftster on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:27 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:1. Sid
T2. Malkin, Datsyuk
4. Stamkos
5. Chara
6. Giroux
7. The Sedins

From 9-100 is very debatable, but those 7 forwards are far above the rest. And Chara is far above the rest (Lidstrom is the only other D that could be debated)


Add Tavares and Ovechkin and make it 11-40 and I agree.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Froggy on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:29 pm

isnt it a bit disingenuous to exclude ovechkin? i know his scoring is down the last couple years, but his body of work should mean something
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby pittsports87 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:32 pm

Froggy wrote:isnt it a bit disingenuous to exclude ovechkin? i know his scoring is down the last couple years, but his body of work should mean something

Body of work should have little influence on ranking the best players right now. Ovechkin hasn't played like one of the best players in the league in almost 2 years now, no way should he be listed in the top 5 right now. So many players are better right now and have been for the last year+
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Mr. Colby on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:32 pm

Kraftster wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:1. Sid
T2. Malkin, Datsyuk
4. Stamkos
5. Chara
6. Giroux
7. The Sedins

From 9-100 is very debatable, but those 7 forwards are far above the rest. And Chara is far above the rest (Lidstrom is the only other D that could be debated)


Add Tavares and Ovechkin and make it 11-40 and I agree.


Agree with you whole-heartedly.

I think Sid, Geno, Datsyuk, and Stamkos are head and shoulders above the rest

The next grouping would be Giroux, Sedins, Chara, Ovie, Tavares.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby mikey287 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:39 pm

pittsports87 wrote:
Froggy wrote:isnt it a bit disingenuous to exclude ovechkin? i know his scoring is down the last couple years, but his body of work should mean something

Body of work should have little influence on ranking the best players right now. Ovechkin hasn't played like one of the best players in the league in almost 2 years now, no way should he be listed in the top 5 right now. So many players are better right now and have been for the last year+


So Crosby's out too? And Stamkos is in?
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Mr. Colby on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:41 pm

mikey287 wrote:
pittsports87 wrote:
Froggy wrote:isnt it a bit disingenuous to exclude ovechkin? i know his scoring is down the last couple years, but his body of work should mean something

Body of work should have little influence on ranking the best players right now. Ovechkin hasn't played like one of the best players in the league in almost 2 years now, no way should he be listed in the top 5 right now. So many players are better right now and have been for the last year+


So Crosby's out too? And Stamkos is in?


I'd say you have to consider their most recent body of work as well as future potential.

OV has proven the ability to be a generational goal scorer and has the potential to return to that form. So he belongs among the top.

I'd say prior to this season I'd have him at that highest level with Sid, Geno, Datsyuk, Stamkos, Chara, which could be considered "Generational talents", but now bump him to the 2nd group of "bona-fide superstars"
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby pittsports87 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:48 pm

mikey287 wrote:
pittsports87 wrote:
Froggy wrote:isnt it a bit disingenuous to exclude ovechkin? i know his scoring is down the last couple years, but his body of work should mean something

Body of work should have little influence on ranking the best players right now. Ovechkin hasn't played like one of the best players in the league in almost 2 years now, no way should he be listed in the top 5 right now. So many players are better right now and have been for the last year+


So Crosby's out too? And Stamkos is in?

Crosby would definitely take a hit if I made a list and I probably wouldn't include him until we see he is healthy and back to playing the hockey we are accustomed to seeing him play at or at least close to it. Ovechkin has just been lazy and hasn't been as good as a player as he used to be and isn't the elite player he used to be but like Malkin did this year, he can return to that form if he works at it.

Stamkos is still overrated.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby shmenguin on Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:50 pm

mikey287 wrote:What are you talking about? Jay Bouwmeester isn't a superstar forward, nor was he drafted to be one...


huh? i said what now about jbo being a forward?

anyways...he was being called "elite" by certain voices here who followed him closely when most of us who only watched him a handfull of times per year just saw was him as the guy either getting continually torched by crosby or just being a solid but unremarkable presence during pens game. turns out the ones who saw him only a few times a year may have had a better grasp on his future.

but back to stamkos...from his highlights this year, it looks like he's better at carrying the play on his own than i've seen in the past. but against the pens, he's just been the guy setting up shop and slamming home some solid feeds from his teammates - albeit slamming at an absolute elite level. i guess what it comes down to is that he's brett hull and we're used to watching mario lemieux. i admit this probably creates an unfair bias and skewed expectations, since the playmaking ability of sid and geno is the standard i hold all "top tier" players to.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby mikey287 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:28 am

shmenguin wrote:
mikey287 wrote:What are you talking about? Jay Bouwmeester isn't a superstar forward, nor was he drafted to be one...


huh? i said what now about jbo being a forward?

anyways...he was being called "elite" by certain voices here who followed him closely when most of us who only watched him a handfull of times per year just saw was him as the guy either getting continually torched by crosby or just being a solid but unremarkable presence during pens game. turns out the ones who saw him only a few times a year may have had a better grasp on his future.


Torched by the best player in the world is indicative of his overall play? Turns out they didn't...he's been terrific this year (again) and no player has been on the ice more since the lockout than Bouwmeester. I'm not surprised that people don't care for Bouwmeester, I'm not surprised they don't watch him and still comment on his play so adamantly and I'm not surprised that they don't know what they're looking at when they're identifying talent in their own mind...it's no big deal though, it's not pre-requisite for being a fan, but it's just weird when certain ascertions are made without context...

shmenguin wrote:but back to stamkos...from his highlights this year, it looks like he's better at carrying the play on his own than i've seen in the past. but against the pens, he's just been the guy setting up shop and slamming home some solid feeds from his teammates - albeit slamming at an absolute elite level. i guess what it comes down to is that he's brett hull and we're used to watching mario lemieux. i admit this probably creates an unfair bias and skewed expectations, since the playmaking ability of sid and geno is the standard i hold all "top tier" players to.


Well, that sums it up nicely. And that not only goes for other team's players but our own prospects and players (e.g. Staal).
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby shmenguin on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:35 am

mikey287 wrote:I'm not surprised that they don't know what they're looking at when they're identifying talent in their own mind


yeah, that attitude sums up why i got into this discussion, and why i should probably just stop before i get pissed at the internet.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby mikey287 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:42 am

shmenguin wrote:
mikey287 wrote:I'm not surprised that they don't know what they're looking at when they're identifying talent in their own mind


yeah, that attitude sums up why i got into this discussion, and why i should probably just stop before i get pissed at the internet.


Y u heff to be med?

Image
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby shmenguin on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:53 am

that's pretty funny.

you mean well (i think), but in a world where someone rises to the highest possible level of talent evaluation and still gives scott gomez and chris drury a combined 5.3 billion dollars (approximate), sometimes the amateurs don't look too shabby in comparison when they're sizing up what they see on the ice.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby mikey287 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:00 am

I'm not perfect, you're not perfect, the people that have the great fortune of doing these jobs aren't perfect. Some are better than others, some are worse. I'm confident in my opinions of players and I can back them and I have a good track record. Right or wrong. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong, it happens. Like you said, you got Gomez who makes $7 trillion a minute...I backed Gomez as a Devil, he looked really good...he was hurt in the ECHL during the lockout and has never been the same...Gomez looked really good as a Devil, but he's completely useless now-a-days...

For better or for worse, I'm confident in my overall hockey knowledge - whether I present that in a friendly, PC way all the time is another story...my apologies if I set anyone off, it's not really my intent...
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby André on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:58 am

Peter Forsberg is 10th all time with 1.25 PPG. This while being a very physical center who for the better part of his career played a two way game during a low scoring era. He's comparable to Datsyuk as someone not very familiar with him might look at his goals totals and say "hey what's the hype?". But I'd say that's where the comparison ends. He scored 0.35 GPG, and is 4th all time with 0.9 APG.

In the playoffs he was at 1.13 PGP but 0.42 GPG. A telling stat as he always was a great goal scorer when he wanted to (and in many different ways). Come up with a definition of clutch games and check his stats in those they definitely go up. Especially his GPG.

Also, he was the PPG leader a couple of times both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Pavel Bure on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:35 am

André wrote:Peter Forsberg is 10th all time with 1.25 PPG. This while being a very physical center who for the better part of his career played a two way game during a low scoring era. He's comparable to Datsyuk as someone not very familiar with him might look at his goals totals and say "hey what's the hype?". But I'd say that's where the comparison ends. He scored 0.35 GPG, and is 4th all time with 0.9 APG.

In the playoffs he was at 1.13 PGP but 0.42 GPG. A telling stat as he always was a great goal scorer when he wanted to (and in many different ways). Come up with a definition of clutch games and check his stats in those they definitely go up. Especially his GPG.

Also, he was the PPG leader a couple of times both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

This is exactly why Forsberg is overrated. Sabermetrics must be used to justify him. He was very good but he wasn't in a tier with Lemieux, Grezky, Jagr and didn't win his one and only Ross and Hart until those guys were either out of the league or in decline. He had two 100 point seasons. In his highest scoring season of 116 points he was still only 5th in scoring in the league. He was very good but not one of the best ever.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Gaucho on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:50 am

Put that way, Jagr wasn't in a tier with Gretzky and Lemieux either. But Forsberg was in a tier with Jagr. He's a definite HOFer.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby columbia on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:52 am

Gaucho wrote:Put that way, Jagr wasn't in a tier with Gretzky and Lemieux either. But Forsberg was in a tier with Jagr. He's a definite HOFer.


I shy away from these conversations, but there's zero chance of that not happening.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Kraftster on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:03 am

Gaucho wrote:Put that way, Jagr wasn't in a tier with Gretzky and Lemieux either.


Agree.

Gaucho wrote:But Forsberg was in a tier with Jagr.


Disagree.

Gaucho wrote:He's a definite HOFer.


Agree.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Gaucho on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:14 am

He wasn't as offensively gifted as Jagr, but his overall game put him right up there with him, imho. Foppa could kill a penalty all by himself.
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Re: Top 100 NHL Players

Postby Kraftster on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:32 am

I just think Jagr was by far the best player of an era (clutch and grab) (not to mention a star in the end of one and beginning of another too). The star among the stars. I suppose that's probably some Penguins' bias talking, though, as its hard to see he was that head and shoulders above a player like Sakic during roughly the same time period.
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