Mike Green

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Re: AO

Postby Be1isarius89 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:21 pm

Mike Green not a top 10 defenseman? Find me another defenseman who can score 30 goals and put up a point per game. Sure. He's not great defensively(Their are worse players than him), but that's not what he's paid to do. When healthy, he is the most prolific offensive defenseman in the league. Easily top 10.
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Re: AO

Postby SolidSnake on Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:30 pm

This thread went from AO to Green lulz
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Re: AO

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:51 pm

Be1isarius89 wrote:Mike Green not a top 10 defenseman? Find me another defenseman who can score 30 goals and put up a point per game. Sure. He's not great defensively(Their are worse players than him), but that's not what he's paid to do. When healthy, he is the most prolific offensive defenseman in the league. Easily top 10.


To me, doesn't matter if you can score 5 goals if you're letting 10 in the other way.
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Re: AO

Postby npv708 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:56 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Be1isarius89 wrote:Mike Green not a top 10 defenseman? Find me another defenseman who can score 30 goals and put up a point per game. Sure. He's not great defensively(Their are worse players than him), but that's not what he's paid to do. When healthy, he is the most prolific offensive defenseman in the league. Easily top 10.


To me, doesn't matter if you can score 5 goals if you're letting 10 in the other way.


But he's not, which is why your argument is bonkers. CSNDC even had a graphic showing how the caps GAA is lower with Green playing.
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Re: AO

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:57 pm

npv708 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Be1isarius89 wrote:Mike Green not a top 10 defenseman? Find me another defenseman who can score 30 goals and put up a point per game. Sure. He's not great defensively(Their are worse players than him), but that's not what he's paid to do. When healthy, he is the most prolific offensive defenseman in the league. Easily top 10.


To me, doesn't matter if you can score 5 goals if you're letting 10 in the other way.


But he's not, which is why your argument is bonkers. CSNDC even had a graphic showing how the caps GAA is lower with Green playing.


Correlation =/= causation.

I'm assuming they took that from this year?

The Caps aren't the same team now they were earlier.
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Re: AO

Postby Be1isarius89 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:58 pm

Mike Green scored 31 goals in 2008-09

Bobby Orr scored more than 31 goals 5 times in his career.
Paul Coffey scored more than 31 goals 3 times in his career.
Denis Potvin managed to score 31 goals twice in his career.
Ray Borque scored 31 goals once.
Phil Housely scored 31 goals once.
Larry Murphy never scored 31 goals.
Al Macinnis never scored 31 goals.
Niklas Lidstrom never scored 31 goals.
Brian Leetch never scored 31 goals.
Larry Robinson never scored 31 goals.

Forget for a second that Green is a Capital and take into consideration the era he plays in.
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Re: AO

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:01 pm

Mike Green is a product of a PP that has Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Semin.

18 of those goals were on the PP.

The fact you're comparing him to the all-time greats is an insult to them. All of the guys mentioned are 100 fold better DEFENSEMEN than Mike Green.

This isn't even about him being on the Capitals. I could care less. IMO he's not good.
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Re: AO

Postby Be1isarius89 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:03 pm

Glad the point I made went right over your head......
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Re: AO

Postby itissteeltime on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:04 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Mike Green is a product of a PP that has Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Semin.

18 of those goals were on the PP.

The fact you're comparing him to the all-time greats is an insult to them. All of the guys mentioned are 100 fold better DEFENSEMEN than Mike Green.

This isn't even about him being on the Capitals. I could care less. IMO he's not good.


Maybe Ovi is a product of Green, considering he sucks now.

I watch every caps game when the Pens arent on. I live in DC so that's what I get. I think Green is incredibly average defensively, and top 2 or 3 (maybe 1) offensively, which makes him an awesome player whose position happens to be "defense."
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Re: AO

Postby npv708 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:05 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
npv708 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Be1isarius89 wrote:Mike Green not a top 10 defenseman? Find me another defenseman who can score 30 goals and put up a point per game. Sure. He's not great defensively(Their are worse players than him), but that's not what he's paid to do. When healthy, he is the most prolific offensive defenseman in the league. Easily top 10.


To me, doesn't matter if you can score 5 goals if you're letting 10 in the other way.


But he's not, which is why your argument is bonkers. CSNDC even had a graphic showing how the caps GAA is lower with Green playing.


Correlation =/= causation.

I'm assuming they took that from this year?

The Caps aren't the same team now they were earlier.


4 years. List of diff Caps and other stats.
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Re: AO

Postby npv708 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:12 pm

itissteeltime wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Mike Green is a product of a PP that has Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Semin.

18 of those goals were on the PP.

The fact you're comparing him to the all-time greats is an insult to them. All of the guys mentioned are 100 fold better DEFENSEMEN than Mike Green.

This isn't even about him being on the Capitals. I could care less. IMO he's not good.


Maybe Ovi is a product of Green, considering he sucks now.

I watch every caps game when the Pens arent on. I live in DC so that's what I get. I think Green is incredibly average defensively, and top 2 or 3 (maybe 1) offensively, which makes him an awesome player whose position happens to be "defense."


Caps can't get the puck up the ice at all right now. They try to force it and then they turn it over.
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Re: AO

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:14 pm

To further my powerplay goals argument:

Stats are in PPG/Total
Spoiler:
Mike Green (1): 18/31 = 58.1%

Bobby Orr (5): 33.3%, 13.5%, 29.7%, 34.4%, 34.8%

Coffey (3): 35%, 32.4%, 18.75%

Potvin (2): 58.1%, 38.7%

Bourque (1): 38.7%

Housley: 41.9%

Also, you left off Kevin Hatcher and Doug Wilson, who had 34 and 39, respectively.

Hatcher: 38.2%

Wilson: 35.9%


Spoilered because it'll take up a bunch of room, but you get where I'm going.

Green is a product of Washington's team. Notice how he hasn't had more than 20 in any other season (18 G in 82 games in 07-08 and 19 G in 75 games in 09-10).

As of right now, Green's 31 goals is a statistical outlier. All of the other guys you mentioned (I'm not counting Hatcher and Wilson since you didn't, just figured I'd point them out) are not known just for their offense. They were solid, all around D-men. Mike Green still hasn't reached that, and in my opinion, I don't think he will.
Last edited by MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AO

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:15 pm

Be1isarius89 wrote:Glad the point I made went right over your head......


It didn't. I was busy typing an essay on it.
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Re: AO

Postby Kraftster on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:25 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Spoiler:
To further my powerplay goals argument:

Stats are in PPG/Total
[spoiler]Mike Green (1): 18/31 = 58.1%

Bobby Orr (5): 33.3%, 13.5%, 29.7%, 34.4%, 34.8%

Coffey (3): 35%, 32.4%, 18.75%

Potvin (2): 58.1%, 38.7%

Bourque (1): 38.7%

Housley: 41.9%

Also, you left off Kevin Hatcher and Doug Wilson, who had 34 and 39, respectively.

Hatcher: 38.2%

Wilson: 35.9%

Spoiler:
Spoilered because it'll take up a bunch of room, but you get where I'm going.

Green is a product of Washington's team. Notice how he hasn't had more than 20 in any other season (18 G in 82 games in 07-08 and 19 G in 75 games in 09-10).

As of right now, Green's 31 goals is a statistical outlier. All of the other guys you mentioned (I'm not counting Hatcher and Wilson since you didn't, just figured I'd point them out) are not known just for their offense.
They were solid, all around D-men.


Not Phil Housley.
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Re: AO

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:26 pm

Kraftster wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Spoiler:
To further my powerplay goals argument:

Stats are in PPG/Total
[spoiler]Mike Green (1): 18/31 = 58.1%

Bobby Orr (5): 33.3%, 13.5%, 29.7%, 34.4%, 34.8%

Coffey (3): 35%, 32.4%, 18.75%

Potvin (2): 58.1%, 38.7%

Bourque (1): 38.7%

Housley: 41.9%

Also, you left off Kevin Hatcher and Doug Wilson, who had 34 and 39, respectively.

Hatcher: 38.2%

Wilson: 35.9%

Spoiler:
Spoilered because it'll take up a bunch of room, but you get where I'm going.

Green is a product of Washington's team. Notice how he hasn't had more than 20 in any other season (18 G in 82 games in 07-08 and 19 G in 75 games in 09-10).

As of right now, Green's 31 goals is a statistical outlier. All of the other guys you mentioned (I'm not counting Hatcher and Wilson since you didn't, just figured I'd point them out) are not known just for their offense.
They were solid, all around D-men.


Not Phil Housley.


I'll be honest, I only know Phil Housley in the context of the St. Louis Blues from NHL 95 when he was paired with Duchene.

But I know the other guys are considered the best at what they do.
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Re: AO

Postby Be1isarius89 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:27 pm

Goals are goals. I don't care how he scored them. I just he know he scored 31 and that's something very few defenseman have ever done.

As a side note, my list contained the top 10 defensemen in points all time. Hence the exclusion of Hatcher and Wilson....
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Re: AO

Postby newarenanow on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:36 pm

I heard Ovechkin ate a Russian baby one time.
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Re: AO

Postby Be1isarius89 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:38 pm

51% of Niklas Lidstrom's 1138 career points have come on the powerplay including 50% of his 263 goals. What does it matter if points are scored on the powerplay? They count in the game. That's all that matters to me.
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Re: AO

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:42 pm

Be1isarius89 wrote:Goals are goals. I don't care how he scored them. I just he know he scored 31 and that's something very few defenseman have ever done.

As a side note, my list contained the top 10 defensemen in points all time. Hence the exclusion of Hatcher and Wilson....


I figured they were left out for a reason, but it still shows there are D who can score 31+ who aren't necessarily the best.

The PPG is still significant though. They accounted for over half his goals.

This is probably oversimplifying, but he doesn't have to worry about playing D on the PP.

Looking at stats from 2008-2009, the next highest d-man had 12 PP goals (Souray), 1 had 11, and 3 had 10.

You can't tell me 18 out of 31 on the PP is not significant.

Since he's only really had 3 full seasons, it probably isn't a big enough sample size, but there's still something to be said when a guy scores 31 one year, but hasn't had more than 20 in the other 2.
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Re: AO

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:44 pm

Be1isarius89 wrote:51% of Niklas Lidstrom's 1138 career points have come on the powerplay including 50% of his 263 goals. What does it matter if points are scored on the powerplay? They count in the game. That's all that matters to me.


We aren't talking career stats, don't change the argument.

Also, even comparing Lidstrom to Green is a huge insult to Lidstrom.
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Re: AO

Postby Be1isarius89 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:53 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Be1isarius89 wrote:51% of Niklas Lidstrom's 1138 career points have come on the powerplay including 50% of his 263 goals. What does it matter if points are scored on the powerplay? They count in the game. That's all that matters to me.


We aren't talking career stats, don't change the argument.

Also, even comparing Lidstrom to Green is a huge insult to Lidstrom.

Because I'm obviously comparing their all around games. We're talking strictly offense. And only 46% of Greens career points have come on the powerplay. Just so we get that straight.

Only 2 defensemen have scored 30 goals in the last 20 years. Green and Hatcher. Mike Green has already had 2 seasons averaging more than 1 point per game.

This league hasn't seen a defenseman put up points like Green since the early 90's
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Re: AO

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:57 pm

Be1isarius89 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Be1isarius89 wrote:51% of Niklas Lidstrom's 1138 career points have come on the powerplay including 50% of his 263 goals. What does it matter if points are scored on the powerplay? They count in the game. That's all that matters to me.


We aren't talking career stats, don't change the argument.

Also, even comparing Lidstrom to Green is a huge insult to Lidstrom.

Because I'm obviously comparing their all around games. We're talking strictly offense. And only 46% of Greens career points have come on the powerplay. Just so we get that straight.

Only 2 defensemen have scored 30 goals in the last 20 years. Green and Hatcher. Mike Green has already had 2 seasons averaging more than 1 point per game.

This league hasn't seen a defenseman put up points like Green since the early 90's


I'll counter that with "None of those d-men were on a team with a line of Ovechkin-Backstrom-Semin when they were actually good"
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Re: AO

Postby Be1isarius89 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:04 pm

I don't see Letang scoring 18 powerplay goals with Malkin and Crosby. I didn't see Gonchar do it either. Lidstrom doesn't score 18 with Datsyuk and Zetterberg and he didn't with Yzerman and Fedorov. Duncan Keith can't do it with Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp. Boyle can't do it with Thorton, Marleau, Couture, Clowe, Pavelski.

Vancouver had the #1 powerplay in the league last year. Christian Erhoff couldn't score 18 total goals, let alone on the powerplay, even with the Sedin brothers and Ryan Kesler.

I fail to see your point.
Last edited by Be1isarius89 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AO

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:04 pm

This argument is absurd. Green is without question the greatest offensive defenseman in the game right now.
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Re: AO

Postby npv708 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:04 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Be1isarius89 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Be1isarius89 wrote:51% of Niklas Lidstrom's 1138 career points have come on the powerplay including 50% of his 263 goals. What does it matter if points are scored on the powerplay? They count in the game. That's all that matters to me.


We aren't talking career stats, don't change the argument.

Also, even comparing Lidstrom to Green is a huge insult to Lidstrom.

Because I'm obviously comparing their all around games. We're talking strictly offense. And only 46% of Greens career points have come on the powerplay. Just so we get that straight.

Only 2 defensemen have scored 30 goals in the last 20 years. Green and Hatcher. Mike Green has already had 2 seasons averaging more than 1 point per game.

This league hasn't seen a defenseman put up points like Green since the early 90's


I'll counter that with "None of those d-men were on a team with a line of Ovechkin-Backstrom-Semin when they were actually good"


Lidstrom and/or Hatcher?
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