Islanders Moving?

Forum for hockey posts that are not Penguins-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:28 am

Physical_Graffiti wrote:I assume fans of the game would rather watch hockey than not.


True, I guess (Islanders fans especially) some of them are hardcore enough if they watch their team fail constantly.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,846
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby The Snapshot on Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:36 am

Bathgate wrote:The Brooklyn Atlantic Yards arena is to be a small-floor arena, designed for basketball, but not hockey. Hockey can be played there, but several thousand seats behind one goal will provide no view of about 1/3 of the ice (the near end zone). It would not be an acceptable permanent home for an NHL team, but could possibly be a temporary home for a few years.


Having been to the old rink in Phoenix, which was a retrofitted rink in the Suns home court - it is completely unacceptable as even an interim solution. The Scoreboard was over one of the bluelines instead of the Center Ice dot. It was very confusing.
The Snapshot
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,276
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:28 am
Location: Somewhere between here and there

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby darkstar57 on Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:57 pm

Bathgate wrote:The Brooklyn Atlantic Yards arena is to be a small-floor arena, designed for basketball, but not hockey. Hockey can be played there, but several thousand seats behind one goal will provide no view of about 1/3 of the ice (the near end zone). It would not be an acceptable permanent home for an NHL team, but could possibly be a temporary home for a few years.


Sadly, the developer who had the concept of this project before it all started asked Charles Wang if he would like to be an investor in the brooklyn development, they would make the arena a joint use arena for basketball and hockey. Wang said no because he wanted to own the whole thing and not just a part. The lighthouse development wang was pushing was never going to go through (Hey Wang its a parking lot!!!, sorry ahd to do the caddyshack reference)

Islanders have the fan base, and have a young team with good talent, they just need to get ride of Rick D's albatross of a contract (plus they still are paying for yashin for another 3 years) and get a GM in that knows how to really build a team.

The problem with the Islanders and the Devils is their Arena's are to far into the burbs of NYC. Put the Islanders in Queens with subway access under the arena and a rail station to LI and they will see their attedance numbers increase. Believe it or not the islanders actually have a large fan base, just their team has been mirror in medicare really since the 80's. Its like the pens in the Generation X phase, but for waaaayyyyy longer and really no help on the horizon because the owner is an idiot

The devils also have a large fan base, but the arena was first in the meadowlands (had to drive to games in a heavily congested part of NJ) and now the arena in newark is amazing, but newark is a pizza hole. No one wants to go to newark, the police pressence after a game is nuts. They had a concept to build the arena over the NJ rail yards in hoboken (which would have been a logistical nightmare for anyone driving to the game) but if they could have figured it out, the Devils would be selling out game after game. Hoboken is 15 mins from midtown and the end of many of the NJ transit lines. Again someone was too stupid to make this happen
darkstar57
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,897
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: A flute with no holes, is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a Danish

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Fire0nice228 wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:Devils -> Long Island, Isles -> relocate.


No way. Devils have a relatively new arena


And they STILL arnt making money! That ripped t shirt looks better than their 3rds..


Neither are the pens.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,068
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:35 pm

darkstar57 wrote:
Bathgate wrote:The Brooklyn Atlantic Yards arena is to be a small-floor arena, designed for basketball, but not hockey. Hockey can be played there, but several thousand seats behind one goal will provide no view of about 1/3 of the ice (the near end zone). It would not be an acceptable permanent home for an NHL team, but could possibly be a temporary home for a few years.


Sadly, the developer who had the concept of this project before it all started asked Charles Wang if he would like to be an investor in the brooklyn development, they would make the arena a joint use arena for basketball and hockey. Wang said no because he wanted to own the whole thing and not just a part. The lighthouse development wang was pushing was never going to go through (Hey Wang its a parking lot!!!, sorry ahd to do the caddyshack reference)

Islanders have the fan base, and have a young team with good talent, they just need to get ride of Rick D's albatross of a contract (plus they still are paying for yashin for another 3 years) and get a GM in that knows how to really build a team.

The problem with the Islanders and the Devils is their Arena's are to far into the burbs of NYC. Put the Islanders in Queens with subway access under the arena and a rail station to LI and they will see their attedance numbers increase. Believe it or not the islanders actually have a large fan base, just their team has been mirror in medicare really since the 80's. Its like the pens in the Generation X phase, but for waaaayyyyy longer and really no help on the horizon because the owner is an idiot

The devils also have a large fan base, but the arena was first in the meadowlands (had to drive to games in a heavily congested part of NJ) and now the arena in newark is amazing, but newark is a pizza hole. No one wants to go to newark, the police pressence after a game is nuts. They had a concept to build the arena over the NJ rail yards in hoboken (which would have been a logistical nightmare for anyone driving to the game) but if they could have figured it out, the Devils would be selling out game after game. Hoboken is 15 mins from midtown and the end of many of the NJ transit lines. Again someone was too stupid to make this happen


That does seem to be the deciding factor in arena deals......teams want all the cash. The devils although far out still have tons of shows that they make money off of. Wang would be better off in his own building with less hockey fans and more concerts which is sad to say.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,068
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby brwi on Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:41 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Fire0nice228 wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:Devils -> Long Island, Isles -> relocate.


No way. Devils have a relatively new arena


And they STILL arnt making money! That ripped t shirt looks better than their 3rds..


Neither are the pens.


Pens were profitable before moving into the new arena and I have yet to hear it ever questioned that they are at least as profitable now as they were before.
brwi
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,129
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:36 am

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:08 pm

brwi wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Fire0nice228 wrote:
pensfan1989 wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:Devils -> Long Island, Isles -> relocate.


No way. Devils have a relatively new arena


And they STILL arnt making money! That ripped t shirt looks better than their 3rds..


Neither are the pens.


Pens were profitable before moving into the new arena and I have yet to hear it ever questioned that they are at least as profitable now as they were before.


A Forbes article showed them losing money. Although those figures are not necessarily 100 percent accurate that coupled with huge price increases us ticket holders were promised wouldn't happen, I guess you could say I am making a small assumption.

Although even the article is off a bit and they made some money it obviously was not the cash windfall they thought.

just pointing out for the sake of this discussion that there is a lot that goes into these deals.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,068
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby brwi on Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:11 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:[
A Forbes article showed them losing money. Although those figures are not necessarily 100 percent accurate that coupled with huge price increases us ticket holders were promised wouldn't happen, I guess you could say I am making a small assumption.

Although even the article is off a bit and they made some money it obviously was not the cash windfall they thought.

just pointing out for the sake of this discussion that there is a lot that goes into these deals.


Agreed, and one important fact is whatever debt the owners happen to be carrying and the annual debt service costs, something that only gets revealed once a franchise gets into big trouble and files bankruptcy. Some of the loans that Baldwin took out back in those sorry times were worse than loan-sharking, and Marino who had the money to buy the team outright(and tried to at one point) was still using financing for a portion also. Very similar happened in PHX, Dallas and ATL.

I have no idea how much debt the Pens are carrying on the books right now, but their franchise valuation of 230mil seems realistic in comparison to other sports franchises and that's a helluva return so far for ownership, especially considering that they also just moved into CONSOL with a real sweetheart long-term deal.
brwi
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,129
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:36 am

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:35 am

There is a huge base of Islander fans on Long Island, and youth hockey is as big here as it is in Pittsburgh. The problem is that most Islander fans have gone "under ground" and all you really hear about is the Rangers.

The Lighthouse project was Wangs 'saving grace'.

If the team moves now, it'd be moving to somewhere other than NY. There's no place for them in Manhattan, The politicians on the Island won't work with them, (and don't feel as if they'd lose anything important if the team bolted - unlike almost any other city), and they're really out of options.

A new facility isn't going to be built here for a longtime. Concerts? MSG is a 35 minute train ride away (Even if it is the most over rated concert venue in the world). There's more venues for music in the NY area than probably anywhere else in the world.

I'm betting that the Isles move, then the politicians realize what they lost and build a new barn, then the NHL brings a franchise to the area (sort of what happened with Cleveland in the NFL)
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:49 am

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/h ... nt=2340704

The financier, Seattle native Chris Hansen, wants to bring an NBA team back to the Pacific Northwest, and explained his passion for the game in this interview.

But if there’s to be a hockey team - some local observers have suggested an NHL tenant would be essential to making a new arena plan financially sustainable - he made it clear has no ambitions of owning it.

Though the NHL is understood to favour Seattle as a market - league commissioner Gary Bettman spoke glowingly of the city at last month’s all-star game - there are several short-term impediments to a swift relocation involving a team like the league-owned Phoenix Coyotes.

The main one is that the outdated Key Arena - vacated by the NBA’s Seattle Supersonics in 2008 because of its small seating capacity and advancing age - isn’t easily converted to NHL specifications, and to do so limits the number of seats to about 11,000.


http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/13/co ... relocation

Contenders for NHL relocation
Seattle, KC, LV, QC
Physical_Graffiti
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,027
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:47 pm
Location: Hamilton

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby columbia on Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:56 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:There is a huge base of Islander fans on Long Island, and youth hockey is as big here as it is in Pittsburgh. The problem is that most Islander fans have gone "under ground" and all you really hear about is the Rangers.

The Lighthouse project was Wangs 'saving grace'.

If the team moves now, it'd be moving to somewhere other than NY. There's no place for them in Manhattan, The politicians on the Island won't work with them, (and don't feel as if they'd lose anything important if the team bolted - unlike almost any other city), and they're really out of options.

A new facility isn't going to be built here for a longtime. Concerts? MSG is a 35 minute train ride away (Even if it is the most over rated concert venue in the world). There's more venues for music in the NY area than probably anywhere else in the world.

I'm betting that the Isles move, then the politicians realize what they lost and build a new barn, then the NHL brings a franchise to the area (sort of what happened with Cleveland in the NFL)


I'm not sure about the last part, but pretty much.
There's no future for the Islanders in Brooklyn, rink arrangement aside.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 46,324
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:21 am

columbia wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:There is a huge base of Islander fans on Long Island, and youth hockey is as big here as it is in Pittsburgh. The problem is that most Islander fans have gone "under ground" and all you really hear about is the Rangers.

The Lighthouse project was Wangs 'saving grace'.

If the team moves now, it'd be moving to somewhere other than NY. There's no place for them in Manhattan, The politicians on the Island won't work with them, (and don't feel as if they'd lose anything important if the team bolted - unlike almost any other city), and they're really out of options.

A new facility isn't going to be built here for a longtime. Concerts? MSG is a 35 minute train ride away (Even if it is the most over rated concert venue in the world). There's more venues for music in the NY area than probably anywhere else in the world.

I'm betting that the Isles move, then the politicians realize what they lost and build a new barn, then the NHL brings a franchise to the area (sort of what happened with Cleveland in the NFL)


I'm not sure about the last part, but pretty much.
There's no future for the Islanders in Brooklyn, rink arrangement aside.


Those are all good points. Generally sports teams and/or arenas are good investments for cities because of the direct AND indirect cash it brings in. For areas like pittsburgh bringing 18,000 people into town 40 or 50 times per year plus all the shows has to be 50 times the amount of money the city pays as a mortgage payment minimum. Just done math in your head in ticket taxes, booze, food, parking etc. cash cow.

Point is like I said above lots go into these deals and reasons for them. If long island doesn't feel it can make cash from an arena with shows because MSG and new jersey are getting most of the concerts maybe moving the team makes the most sense. Fan base or not they won't be able to compete financially.
BurghersAndDogsSports
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,068
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby Headshot77 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:30 pm

There is no real need for the Isnalders to stay where they are when the Devils and Rangers are so close by.
Headshot77
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:02 am

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:39 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:My city's team didn't move in mine, my father's, or my grandfather's lifetime, so I can't properly answer the question, but I'd say I'd probably route for the team with my favourite player on it.


OK, so let's assume your favorite player was Tavares (if the Islanders left) or Zach Parise (if the Devs left).

You obviously aren't gonna cheer for the Devils or Islanders (respectively), so the team left is not getting your money.

(Am I making sense? I'm trying to do like 6 thing right now, so I'm hoping this is at least making some sense)

What if everyone decides they're gonna do the same thing you are (because New York/New Jersey is not Canada, I'm assuming most people don't watch hockey for hockey's sake)? The team remaining is still in the same position (especially if some of the potential fans go to the Rangers).


Up here most islander fans would just switch to watching, if not cheering for, the Rangwrs.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby MRandall25 on Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:45 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:My city's team didn't move in mine, my father's, or my grandfather's lifetime, so I can't properly answer the question, but I'd say I'd probably route for the team with my favourite player on it.


OK, so let's assume your favorite player was Tavares (if the Islanders left) or Zach Parise (if the Devs left).

You obviously aren't gonna cheer for the Devils or Islanders (respectively), so the team left is not getting your money.

(Am I making sense? I'm trying to do like 6 thing right now, so I'm hoping this is at least making some sense)

What if everyone decides they're gonna do the same thing you are (because New York/New Jersey is not Canada, I'm assuming most people don't watch hockey for hockey's sake)? The team remaining is still in the same position (especially if some of the potential fans go to the Rangers).


Up here most islander fans would just switch to watching, if not cheering for, the Rangwrs.


So then the Devs still don't get money. You'd end up in the same spot, just one team in a different place.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,846
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Islanders Moving?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:13 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:My city's team didn't move in mine, my father's, or my grandfather's lifetime, so I can't properly answer the question, but I'd say I'd probably route for the team with my favourite player on it.


OK, so let's assume your favorite player was Tavares (if the Islanders left) or Zach Parise (if the Devs left).

You obviously aren't gonna cheer for the Devils or Islanders (respectively), so the team left is not getting your money.

(Am I making sense? I'm trying to do like 6 thing right now, so I'm hoping this is at least making some sense)

What if everyone decides they're gonna do the same thing you are (because New York/New Jersey is not Canada, I'm assuming most people don't watch hockey for hockey's sake)? The team remaining is still in the same position (especially if some of the potential fans go to the Rangers).


Up here most islander fans would just switch to watching, if not cheering for, the Rangwrs.


So then the Devs still don't get money. You'd end up in the same spot, just one team in a different place.

If you drew a venn diagram of the fan base up here it would consist of a huge circle in the middle of Rangers fans, another circle on it's right that overlaps probably 40% of the Rangers circle as Islander fans and another circle to the left of the large Rangers circle that would be Devils fans. The Devils fan circle would be smaller than the Islanders fans circle (which is itself smaller than the Rangers circle), the Devils circle would overlap maybe 30% of the Rangers circle.

The islanders and Devils circles don't overlap at all.

At least that's how I see the fan base up here.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Previous

Return to NPR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: OutofFoil and 2 guests

e-mail