Yay Bure (HHOFr)

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Re: Yay Bure (HHOFr)

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:18 pm

mikey287 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:I think his play is worthy, but the numbers he puts up don't match the intangibles he provides.


So, fair to say: Brind'Amour plus a peak? Or Kovalev plus defense? Neither of which are HHOFers and never will be I don't think, is the "plus" big enough to push him over? I think he might need another a elite season or two to lengthen that prime, personally.


Funny, when I saw you said Kovalev, I said "There's no way Datsyuk is on Kovalev's level offensively." Then I looked at the #'s, and they were a lot closer than I realized.

I'd say Datsyuk is more on a level of his own that is around the Kovalev and Brindamour levels. He is one of the best defensive forwards in the game, but winning multiple Selke's =/= HOF'er. Otherwise Guy Carbonneau would be a shoo in.

It's a tough call. You can see how there are games where he's just dominant on the puck, but he's just in an awkward position where he doesn't have much else to his resumé besides the Selke's and two 90-point seasons.
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Re: Yay Bure (HHOFr)

Postby André on Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:35 pm

mikey287 wrote:
canaan wrote:kinda stunned at the datsyuk opinions.


Please go on, he's a borderline guy for me...so it's possible I could be swung. I see a player who was/is better than his resume (two top-10 points finishes, 3 Selkes, one 2nd team all-star nod, 2 Cups (important piece to one of them)) but he really struggles to keep his head above water vs. other HHOFers. And unless I'm incorrect, I don't see him improving...he seems like he might be on the twilight of prime...it's a good resume, don't get me wrong...but I'm not sure I see a HHOFer on ink, and I wasn't positive I was watching HHOFer when I saw him (and see him)...

But I'd certainly welcome opinions here, this is a wide-open one for me...


3 Selkes, 2 Cups, 4 Lady Byngs and possibly 1000 points (along with what will be 100+ playoff points) when he retires (he's 34 with 700). This with consideration at a really high rank when looking at skill and top capacity. Definitely think he's in.
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Re: Yay Bure (HHOFr)

Postby mikey287 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:29 pm

Well, he's got a shot...he's gonna need to put in a little bit in the longevity column as he is not a lock for 1000 games or 1000 points. Selke's and Lady Byng's don't rank very highly on the trophy totem pole, so he has his work cut out for him there...

Just looking into it a bit more:

Pavel Datsyuk

Hart: 3, 9
Selke: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3
Second-Team AS, "Third" team AS, "Fourth" team AS

Top-10 goals: N/A
Top-10 assists: 2, 5, 8, 9
Top-10 points: 4, 4

Weak playoff performer for the first half of his career. Has rebounded nicely and won a Cup as one of the best players on the team and was a finalist once more.

I did some research that I ended up not posting because I thought that (minus the Selke's) that Alexei Yashin and Pierre Turgeon were going to get uncomfortably close to that resume up there, but they really don't...which is a relief...I think he's got a lot riding on the next couple years here...I'm not sure he's going to make it...
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Re: Yay Bure (HHOFr)

Postby columbia on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:45 pm

Haven't thought of this in years:
I saw Sylvain Turgeon score his first NHL goal.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Re: Yay Bure (HHOFr)

Postby canaan on Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:16 am

Datsyuk is consistently one of the players' favorite hockey players. Euro prospects and superstars alike look to Datsyuk as their "i want to play the game like him" player. This doesn't tally into any specific statistic or category, but it should be noted that the way he approaches the game is like the consummate paragon of professional hockey athlete. I hear every year that Datsyuk is one of the best players in the world, which I agree that he is. So why does he get that title? Its hard to quantify because he is a great 2-way player, not a point machine, but i'll do my part to give PD his fair shake.

Points Per Game
P. Datsyuk: .981

Notables in the same PPG area (note: i put lower comps because i dont expect Datsyuk's numbers to increase towards the end of his career, but decline a little bit during that span):
J. Lemaire: .979
L. Robitaille: .974
D. Gilmour: .959
C. Neely: .956

Barring injuries, which could be an issue, Datsyuk's PPG is more than acceptable when discussing his prowess to be in the hall...and scoring isnt his best asset to a team. Neely would be a good comparison, in my opinion, because of his 2-way ability, though Neely obviously was more rugged and tough. By the end of his career, he will be the 3rd highest scoring russian center of all-time in the NHL behind Malkin and Federov, while having several hundred less shots than either one of them. He's had 4 seasons where hes had 87 points or more. Not completely overwhelming stats, just interesting to the discussion and a basis for my conclusion.

The Selke Effect
Because the Selke doesn't have the glitz and glamour of the Richard, Hart, etc., doesn't mean is should be used as a throwaway in terms of what Datsyuk has accomplished to date. In 732 GP, he has only 186 PIMS. Datsyuk knows how to be aggressive on the forecheck, lead the league at times in his career in takeaways, and do so while staying within the limits of the rules. Again, not a smoking gun of his inclusion into the Hall, but its the sum of all parts. I could spout of a couple of different defensive metrics on adv hockey statistics and how they pertain to Dastyuk's Selke years, but I dont have the time to breakdown DGVT's and DPS's. To sum it up in simplistic terms, His FO% is great, and better in defensive situations. Combine that with his relatively low PKtime% and it makes for some really interesting thresholds between his takeaway statistics versus the (read: most) rest of the league and the top two-way forwards of all-time. It could be viewed as a slight that he doesnt get 50%+PK time, but DET likes to use bottom 6 guys for that role more than other comparable types on other teams. If I get time on Monday, Ill try and throw together a little chart of numbers that better mean what im trying to say. Its hard to quantify defensive statistics that prove this without being exhausting in the process. I dont care for RTSS most of the time due to its rink-by-rink subjectivity, but im not gonna let go of takeaways lol.

Where Does He Rank? (read: canaan's opinion)
Datsyuk is one of the best two way forwards of all-time. Top 20 for me. In terms of overall skaters, I would put im in the top 75. And thats at this moment of his career. I hope he has a healthy end to his career and with that, he would be in the top 50-60 for me. Hes a complete player. His shot, his pass, his approach, his hands. His hands are probably his most underrated asset. You can use all of the tired cliche "stickhandles in a phone booth" blah blah blah you want, but Datsyuk is incredible. Hes not Kovalev, but he can dangle with the best of them. All in all, I think hes a shoo-in for the HHOF, even if his career trails off/ends abruptly. If it continues on the same arc, he will be a first ballot addition. You can add in the previous statistics that Mikey stated above and the list compiled by wiki

Wikipedia wrote:NHL Second All-Star Team — 2009
Selected to the NHL All-Star Game — 2004, 2008, 2009 (did not attend), 2012
Played in the NHL YoungStars Game — 2002
Stanley Cup (Detroit Red Wings) — 2002, 2008
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy — 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009
Frank J. Selke Trophy — 2008, 2009, 2010
NHL Plus-Minus Award — 2008
2010-2011 NHL Players Poll: Hardest to Take the Puck Off of, Cleanest Player.
2011-2012 NHL Players Poll: Smartest Player, Most Difficult to Play Against, Hardest to Take the Puck From, Most Difficult to Stop, Cleanest Player, Toughest Forward to Play Against


Add also: (2) time Stanley Cup winner, (7) 20 goal seasons, Hart nominee, and only (1) season with a - rating


Like a freshman ending a term paper, ill leave you with a quote:

Zdeno Chara wrote:I remember we had a game against [Datsyuk] in Boston and he was on a short-handed situation and made two or three guys look like Peewees… He just does stuff that really makes you go, ‘Wow, that was special.'



hypothetical for thought: Would you build a franchise around this player? I sure as hell would.

/Pierre-esque Pasha love fest
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Re: Yay Bure (HHOFr)

Postby mikey287 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:25 am

Well, alright then, that was a lucid, intelligent, well-thought-out objection...sustained....mostly...

You bring up some good points and the defensive "statistics" would only be necessary for someone who doesn't believe he was one of the best two-way players in the game over the last handful of years...I think the eye test combined with the Selke record is sufficient enough evidence, personally. One thing that I've been meaning to touch on is how he is viewed vs. "actual" ability. How long has Datsyuk been considered a top-10 or -20 player in the league...? Is he? 10 years of being a consensus "top 20" player, certainly has merit, though it's difficult to say for sure that that's case. Especailly given his weak Hart trophy finishes. Even scant voting from odd years would help him in this regard, but he really doesn't seem to have that...

I was with it and digging the detailed response thing (sometimes I don't get these back, unfortunately...) but you did lose me on the "top 20 two-way forwards of all time" thing...I made a face when reading that, that didn't sound right...

So he has to knock out one of these guys: Howe, Beliveau, Clarke, Mikita, Kelly (also played D), Trottier, Sakic, Messier, H.Richard, Kurri, Lindsay, Schmidt, Yzerman, Boucher, Nighbor, Keon, Fedorov, Francis, Gilmour, Ullman...and that's if you don't consider players like Gainey or Lehtinen or Provost two-way players, but rather just defensive players...I'm not sure that I can put him up in that territory, and the Selke only being around since 1978 doesn't help sort that out any better...that's a tough call...he's not terribly far off from the very fringes of that particular group, but I'm sure I'm missing a couple glaring guys also...

I'd have an easier time kicking him out of the top-50 of all-time, I don't think he's even close in that regard. I mean, just sectioning it off into groups: you have the big 4, then you got the whole Beliveau/Hull/Shore/Harvey/Bourque contingent which includes a number of others so now you're at 15 maybe, then you got guys like Clarke/Espo/Kelly/Potvin a few goalies in there...like Sawchuk...so you're probably at 25 or so...then right around 25 you figure you got Jagr and Messier and Sakic and Yzerman and some older guys too...now we're gaining on 40 quickly here and we still haven't gotten a way from players that were routinely considered top-3 or 5 at worst players in the league for almost the duration of their career and certainly at least their prime...which Datsyuk can't lay any claim to. The next level after this is guys that spent most of their career being the very, very best "complimentary" pieces (for lack of a better word) like Coffey, Mahovlich, Park, Pilote, etc.

The one thing though about being the 50th best player of all-time is that there is absolutely no debate on you being a HHOFer...Datsyuk can't say that. There's at least some debate...like 50 is big time territory. I don't have Sergei Makarov in my top-50 and there's little chance that Datsyuk was better than him. I don't have Forsberg in my top-50, and there's little chance that Datsyuk was better than him. I don't have Ron Francis in my top 50 and there's little chance Datsyuk was better than him. So, I'm not sure I buy what you're selling rank wise, I think that's a touch audacious...but besides that, the argument was good and you made some very good conversational points...

I came from above with the players that he'd have to get past to get into these rankings...but what about what comes up with him from the bottom...what does Datsyuk getting in and getting such rankings do for guys like Henrik Zetterberg, Patrik Elias and Marian Hossa?
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Re: Yay Bure (HHOFr)

Postby canaan on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:19 pm

Im loving this conversation. I was trying to compile, in my head, the premier two-way forwards in NHL history. I went so far as to smack google around to try to remember ones i had missed. Your list is hard to nitpick. I couldnt for the life of me remember Ullman or Nighbor. The rest of your list is on par with where I was thinking of. I had Lehtinen in my 20, but him being classified as strictly defensive makes for a more apt classification.

This may be met with some scorn/ridicule, but I would feel better if Kurri was lumped into the, as blasphemous as it may seem, into the "complimentary" (i know what you mean by it, and i dont know what would be a better term for it). But this is a discussion for another thread to hijack :lol:

I do want to clarify that Datsyuk's ceiling is around 50 for overall skaters (should have clarified as forwards). no dmen. no goalies. I agree that Francis, Forsberg are better than and wont be matched, even within Datsyuk's career arc. If I get the time, i'd like to post my top 50 forwards and then break it down to top 50 LW, RW, C, D, G and see where Datsyuk would fall. Ive never compiled statistics to this magnitude so im gonna have to make lists and then research because i know im gonna miss a few. this will be a fun project for the work week next week.

Hossa has a better shot and is bigger than Datsyuk. Datsyuk is the better all around player (read: smarter, can make for himself, can lead). Datsyuk careers-to-date in comparison, are a pretty substantial step above hossa and elias, zetterberg overall. I see the point you are making that at this level of player, you can have arguments/discussions/a valid case why Hossa's offense is superior to Datsyuk (statistically, Hossa has some pretty hard-to-argue numbers), is decent on the forecheck, etc. I guess im viewing a lot of what I perceive as "intangibles" that make it such an obvious "hell yes" when answering the hypothetical in my OP.

The biggest concept im having a hard time trying to explicate is how i feel that a player like Datsyuk is closer to the "elite" two way forwards while playing in a more defensive role--A top line player that plays like a shutdown center. I guess a better fit for his style would be a smarter, euro-style Brind'amour. I dont know. im gonna have to think about this.
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Re: Yay Bure (HHOFr)

Postby mikey287 on Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:56 pm

Nighbor at the time and in retrospect seems to rank very highly among the best two-way forwards in the game's history. There's a newspaper article from way back when that denotes that Nighbor was so effective defensively and that he shutdown Howie Morenz (one of, if not, the greatest player pre-WWII) so emphatically that Howie broke down into tears on the bench (frustration, no doubt, not sadness). In fact, there's evidence that suggests that Nighbor and Ottawa's defense could prevent teams from crossing center ice for prolonged periods of time. Off hand, I believe Nighbor oversaw two different goalies be pronounced as the best in the game behind him (Clint Benedict and Alec Connell, IIRC). He may be the best all-time in terms of defensive centermen, if not, he's darn close.

Yeah, I won't hijack this with Kurri comments, but Kurri was a major, major piece of that Oilers team and they wouldn't have been nearly as dominant without Kurri...to steal a baseball metric, I would think that Kurri's WAR would be high, but might not be quantifiable...he was far better than, say, Glenn Anderson...very important player all-time.

Top 50 forwards is at least a little more realistic, but I don't see how he could possibly get to 50. I haven't thought it totally out yet, but I can't see a means for that...I'm willing to participate though to figure it out.

I'm always down for historical discussion, so whether it's this thread or a new one, I'd be a very active participant in any sort of legitimate historical study. Might be a nice summer project to consider, but it's a lot of work...you have to chip steadily away at it. But if it's something that comes up or something that I see, I'll be all over it certainly.
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Re: Yay Bure (HHOFr)

Postby André on Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:19 am

How about this one:

Cam Neely; overrated?

He played during an extremely high scoring era (83-96) and is just under a PPG both in the regular season and in the Stanley Cup. He peaked at 92 points (a year when that was good for about 20th position in the scoring race).

He was great of course but some talk of him as a superstar. Even saw him suggested in an all time debate on some site.

Also, we have several different threads now (mount rushmore, Bure HHoF, Top 100 all time etc). I'll make a new one for any historical, best ever debate. Actually go there for the Cam Neely question and we'll get it right right away.
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