I'm bored, lets talk Nash

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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby GenoMachino71 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:59 pm

pens_CT wrote:
GenoMachino71 wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:Because the Penguins got extremely lucky and had no choice but to pick them? You're right, it doesn't matter where you get them, but our D prospects will fetch significantly less than Goligoski right now. The problem with waiting for a trade to get a forward is that the price and 'value' fluctuates depending on exogeneous factors (outside the Pens control) such as the cap room, who won the Cup with what type of players, and other teams' needs. Right now, the price is extremely high for any of these forwards (so it has been said) and the Penguins literally do not have the pieces to put together a solid trade for one. It will probably be years before you can expect one of our D prospects to bring in a similar return to the Gogo trade outside of possibly Despres.


the thing is, the Penguins dont NEED to make any trades right now to improve their top 2 lines.... they have 3 all star caliber players in Crosby, Malkin, and Neal.... Kunitz is good for 20 to 25 goals and Dupuis should be around 20

the Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis line is proven already.... it was great when they were together in the past and I imagine that line will be together to start the year if they make no major additions before the season..... and Neal and Malkin have each other

so while it would be great to get Crosby another winger, its not an absolute necessity right now

the Penguins arent going to be forced to trade a player they dont want to trade to get Crosby that winger, because it isnt a huge need right now..... Ray Shero is not an idiot.... I'm sure he knows what the value of his young DMen are right now and what they could fetch now or down the road in a trade.... if he makes a deal, I'm sure it will be one hes comfortable with and has evaluated from all angles


They need to get somebody to fill that last top 6 spot. Kennedy isn't it, and Tangradi please give me a break, he will be lucky to make the roster. Shero has to do something, I guess will find out before camp what his plan is.


the year the Penguins won the cup, they went into the season with this as their top 2 lines

Satan-Crosby-Dupuis
Fedotenko-Malkin-Sykora

by the time they won the cup, it was

Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin
Fedotenko-Malkin-Talbot

Satan and Sykora, 2 top 2 line players ended up splitting time on the 4th line....

I'd say thats a major change from when the season started

alot can happen between now and the trade deadline..... why does Shero have to be in a rush? He has almost 8 months to put together a roster for the playoffs

if Cooke, Kennedy, Jeffrey, Tangradi, etc have to play a top 2 line role for some to start the season, I think the Penguins will still be just fine.... and if they need to make a trade or two to upgrade the forward position, I'm sure they will.... its a little early to be worried about who the sixth forward is in the top 2 lines..... theyre not going to rush into a deal now and make a trade they dont want to do..... you just gotta be patient
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby supermario on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:23 pm

mikey287 wrote:Christ, this thread again...

The first proposal is horrendous.

The Pens just don't have what Columbus is looking for, if you wanted a shot, I'd say maybe, maybe, maybe they'd consider this but it doesn't really help them:

Orpik, Sutter, Dupuis, Morrow, plus 2 out of 4 of Dumoulin/Despres/Pouliot/Harrington, a 1st in 2013 and a conditional 1st in 2014...but I would guess they'd want younger pieces than Orpik and Dupuis...I still don't think they'd want even that...

:shock: I think this offer is crazy! We are not talking about acquiring Mario lemieux here. But if it was for Mario, I'd consider it. :D
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:34 pm

Can't blame Scott Howson for trying to get the most he can for Nash...

However, if I'm Shero, I don't touch Nash with a 30 foot pole.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:35 pm

I know his asking price is high but you're essentially saying its 2 roster players and 4 first round draft picks for Rick 'effin Nash? I wouldn't have traded him straight up for Staal (talent wise), and I didn't think so highly of Jordan either. Dude isn't getting any younger and he's expensive.

Basically what needs to be said is that Columbus isn't looking for your regular trade package. They are treating him as a face of a franchise and looking for a similar player in return. The problem is, they waited about three years too long and that ship has sailed. I don't see them getting a young franchise savior for a few years of (maybe) 70 points and an $8 million salary. Their problem, not ours.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby GenoMachino71 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:35 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Can't blame Scott Howson for trying to get the most he can for Nash...

However, if I'm Shero, I don't touch Nash with a 30 foot pole.


I would if the offer was right....

but I'm not sure how realistic that is
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:57 am

I like the whole "Crosby committed to play here, we need to get him a wing" thing. Problem is we went out and got him TWO wingers in the last 4 years (even if you exclude Hossa). Kunitz and Neal. Unfortunately for Sid, he was out for a year and Neal went into ridiculous mode with Malkin. So it would be insanity to break them up. Kunitz had a great year with those two, but I imagine they move him back with Sid and Dupuis to make that a competent line and hope someone on the roster can play competent enough to not get in Malkin and Neal's way.

We keep making GREAT trades to bring in wingers for Sid. His health just made it hard for them to remain "Crosby's wingers." It's not easy to just fill an open hole in the top 6 like that, so if we have to hold off and take a shot at the trade deadline, so be it. Quite frankly, I trust Shero more in a deadline trade than a UFA pickup.

Gutting 3-5 players to get Nash makes no sense, especially since we then have to find guys to fill the voids left by those pieces.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby It'sagreatdayforhockey! on Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:05 am

DontToewsMeBro wrote:Because the Penguins got extremely lucky and had no choice but to pick them? You're right, it doesn't matter where you get them, but our D prospects will fetch significantly less than Goligoski right now. The problem with waiting for a trade to get a forward is that the price and 'value' fluctuates depending on exogeneous factors (outside the Pens control) such as the cap room, who won the Cup with what type of players, and other teams' needs. Right now, the price is extremely high for any of these forwards (so it has been said) and the Penguins literally do not have the pieces to put together a solid trade for one. It will probably be years before you can expect one of our D prospects to bring in a similar return to the Gogo trade outside of possibly Despres.



Congrats on waiting 3 months before complaining about a forward group that lead the league in scoring and is getting the best player in the world back for potentially 60 more games this year. Yeah, that's what we should be worried about.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby Maestro on Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:24 am

Bluejackets receive:
Fleury
Bennet
Jeffrey
2013 #1 pick

Pens receive:
Rick Nash
jackets 2013 2nd rd pick

Kings receive:
Tangradi
Bortuzzo
Jackets 2nd RD pick

Pens receive:
Bernier
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:07 pm

It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:Because the Penguins got extremely lucky and had no choice but to pick them? You're right, it doesn't matter where you get them, but our D prospects will fetch significantly less than Goligoski right now. The problem with waiting for a trade to get a forward is that the price and 'value' fluctuates depending on exogeneous factors (outside the Pens control) such as the cap room, who won the Cup with what type of players, and other teams' needs. Right now, the price is extremely high for any of these forwards (so it has been said) and the Penguins literally do not have the pieces to put together a solid trade for one. It will probably be years before you can expect one of our D prospects to bring in a similar return to the Gogo trade outside of possibly Despres.



Congrats on waiting 3 months before complaining about a forward group that lead the league in scoring and is getting the best player in the world back for potentially 60 more games this year. Yeah, that's what we should be worried about.


I never said it wasn't irrational, because you're right our defense blows. There are some things you just have to do for the kid who just signed a contract to be a Penguin for the rest of his career. He saved the franchise before he was 23 years old. I think he deserves a good line mate, sue me.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby Mongoose87 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:01 pm

Maestro wrote:Bluejackets receive:
Fleury
Bennet
Jeffrey
2013 #1 pick

Pens receive:
Rick Nash
jackets 2013 2nd rd pick

Kings receive:
Tangradi
Bortuzzo
Jackets 2nd RD pick

Pens receive:
Bernier

And the Kings ask you if this is a joke.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby Maestro on Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:08 pm

Well Bernier is going to be moved. Pens should add Nash move fleury replace with Bernier.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby JS© on Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:32 pm

Milan Kraft + Janne Laukannen + 2013 2nd for Nash :pop: :slug:

What hurt the BJ's is that they said they have plans on moving Nash. Had they not shown their cards and said "Our intentions are to have Rick Nash honor his contract", they would be in the position of deciding which offer is best. But knowing that they are sellers on a player that more or less has to be moved, they won't see max value on Nash.

At best: second line player, prospect, and low-1st to mid-2nd round pick in 2013 or 14.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby pens_CT on Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:39 pm

Maestro wrote:Well Bernier is going to be moved. Pens should add Nash move fleury replace with Bernier.

I can't believe I am getting involved in a PS3 type trade, but oh well I'm bored:

To Kings: Beau Bennett, Joe Morrow
To Pens: Johnathan Bernier

To Jackets: Pens 1st Round Pick 2013
Johnathan Bernier
Derrick Pouliot
Tyler Kennedy

To Pens: Rick Nash


Its probably still not enough for the Blue Jackets, but at least they get the goalie who they have been looking for.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:18 pm

Maestro wrote:Well Bernier is going to be moved. Pens should add Nash move fleury replace with Bernier.


:face:
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:22 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Maestro wrote:Well Bernier is going to be moved. Pens should add Nash move fleury replace with Bernier.

I can't believe I am getting involved in a PS3 type trade, but oh well I'm bored:

To Kings: Beau Bennett, Joe Morrow
To Pens: Johnathan Bernier

To Jackets: Pens 1st Round Pick 2013
Johnathan Bernier
Derrick Pouliot
Tyler Kennedy

To Pens: Rick Nash

Its probably still not enough for the Blue Jackets, but at least they get the goalie who they have been looking for.


Thats an insane amount to give up for Bernier, who will probably remain a King next season anyway.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby JS© on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:36 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Maestro wrote:Well Bernier is going to be moved. Pens should add Nash move fleury replace with Bernier.

I can't believe I am getting involved in a PS3 type trade, but oh well I'm bored:

To Kings: Beau Bennett, Joe Morrow
To Pens: Johnathan Bernier

To Jackets: Pens 1st Round Pick 2013
Johnathan Bernier
Derrick Pouliot
Tyler Kennedy

To Pens: Rick Nash

Its probably still not enough for the Blue Jackets, but at least they get the goalie who they have been looking for.


Beau Bennett, Joe Morrow, Johnathan Bernier, Derrick Pouliot, Tyler Kennedy and the Penguins 1st in 2013 for Nash? That's not enough?

Scott Howson, is that you?
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby Malkamaniac on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:37 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Maestro wrote:Well Bernier is going to be moved. Pens should add Nash move fleury replace with Bernier.


:face:

This is quite facepalm inducing.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby Maestro on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:54 pm

A face palm does not negate the objective reality that I am right and you are you. Good luck with that.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:59 pm

Maestro wrote:A face palm does not negate the objective reality that I am right and you are you. Good luck with that.


Marc-Andre Fleury >>>>> Bernier.

Are you Mark Madden?
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby bhaw on Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:43 pm

JS© wrote:Milan Kraft + Janne Laukannen + 2013 2nd for Nash :pop: :slug:

What hurt the BJ's is that they said they have plans on moving Nash. Had they not shown their cards and said "Our intentions are to have Rick Nash honor his contract", they would be in the position of deciding which offer is best. But knowing that they are sellers on a player that more or less has to be moved, they won't see max value on Nash.

At best: second line player, prospect, and low-1st to mid-2nd round pick in 2013 or 14.


This doesn't make sense. How do they lose out by creating competition? As of now their stance is that he will stay a Blue Jacket unless they get what they want. If they were secretive about it and didn't let everyone know, they don't have as many teams in on it trying to create the best reasonable package.

The return they get is based on Nash's value to other teams and the competition between the teams involved. It has nothing to do with being known he's on the block. Your "at best" scenario is worse than the package we got for Staal, who supposedly pigeon holed us even more by not signing an extension and saying he wants to play in Carolina. We got a young 3rd line center, prospect, and the 8th overall pick for Staal, who is nowhere near regarded as high as Nash. And Staal had 1 year left, Nash has 6 (I think), so the team getting him has assurance.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby Maestro on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:24 am

MRandall25 wrote:
Maestro wrote:A face palm does not negate the objective reality that I am right and you are you. Good luck with that.


Marc-Andre Fleury >>>>> Bernier.

Are you Mark Madden?


Bernier does not have enough NHL experience to really compare to proven GTs, but he's highly regarded as a top tier GT ready to be a #1, was the 11th overall pick in 2006, is only 23, career 20-17-5 with kings with 2.5 GAA and .910 SV% - very comparable to Fleury.
He'd also be cheaper.

The idea is that the easiest route to a Nash deal is to include Fleury, 2 fwd prospects, and the #1 pick for next year - fleury, a proven cup winning goaltender can be an important piece to a rebuilding team.
It is clear Pens organization was not satisfied with Fleury's playoff performance. Look at his playoff record since the cup year. It is very poor.
A rebuilding team often starts in net. The blue jackets need a GT. It is a chip, the only proven chip the Pens could move.

You don't want to go into the season with Vokoun only, so if Fleury is part of a Nash deal, the Pens will need to do a second deal for a GT. Bernier has already requested a trade this summer.

Fleury is extremely replaceable.
Losing to the Canadiens, Lightning, flyers indicate it's time for something different.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby skullman80 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:08 am

If Fleury is so replaceable(your words not mine), then why would Columbus want him as the main piece in a Nash deal? I mean if Fleury is so bad in the playoffs why would Columbus want to rebuild with him as their goalie if they want to make a playoff run?

I mean in one sentence you call Fleury a proven cup winning goaltender, and then in another call him extremely replaceable... you can't have it bot ways.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby columbia on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:12 am

Please.....no.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby puckeye on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:23 am

think most are forgetting that Crosby and Nash had absolutely no chemistry and failed miserably as a line for Team Canada. Most thought that that only Stephen Stills would make the line work :D

Nash is a different winger than most, he dominates the puck trying to go 1-on-1 either resulting in great play or turnover in most cases. He is not a sniper by any means. One reason that CBJ have not found center to compliment him is the fact that he is so hard to pay with. He does not make other players better around him and lots of times he brings down the quality of play because of his inability to use his teammates.

Remember where he was most effective with Team Canada was on shutdown line with Toews and Richards. He is a great talent and may put it all together some day for a quality coach. As much as I hate to admit, Hitch had him there for a bit but quickly fell off when rough times hit.

Very good on the forecheck creating havoc and anticipating mistakes. A lot of his points come on 1-on-1 plays or garbage goals around the net. No doubt he is a great player and love watching him play but he plays best with straight line payers that don't need the puck. Always thought Staal and he would work well. Honesty think Carter may have worked with him as well if Carter wasn't such a POS.

Think Nash would be great in Bylsma's system just not with with 87 or 71.

That all said, I agree with most here that Pens don't have the right pieces for this deal to happen and doubt he gets moved till sometime in season.
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Re: I'm bored, lets talk Nash

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:31 am

supermario wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Christ, this thread again...

The first proposal is horrendous.

The Pens just don't have what Columbus is looking for, if you wanted a shot, I'd say maybe, maybe, maybe they'd consider this but it doesn't really help them:

Orpik, Sutter, Dupuis, Morrow, plus 2 out of 4 of Dumoulin/Despres/Pouliot/Harrington, a 1st in 2013 and a conditional 1st in 2014...but I would guess they'd want younger pieces than Orpik and Dupuis...I still don't think they'd want even that...

:shock: I think this offer is crazy! We are not talking about acquiring Mario lemieux here. But if it was for Mario, I'd consider it. :D


If the Pens want Nash they would have to offer a minimum of 3 top tier defensive products and probably Sutter and a 1st rounder. It has to make up for the fact that Columbus is going to want/need a forward prospect back and we dont have it. Plus without any NHL ready chips Columbus needs to be darn sure this is going to work out.

I doubt Columbus would want Orpik or Dupuis at all. If we needed to dump some salary we might have someone take Kennedy in any trade.

I am not saying we should or will. Just the reality for discussion purposes.
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