Hartnell extended

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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby mikey287 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:49 pm

The only thing that could be wrong with it is the length...he did a hometown discount for sure...
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:54 pm

Why shouldn't they be able to LTIR Pronger? If he isn't still suffering from the concussion, he'll be playing. If you don't believe that, then you missed the rest of his career. Its not a loophole. Neither technically nor practically.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby steelhammer on Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:01 pm

Okay, I was under the impression that the deal was for 33M and not 28.x. That still doesn't change my opinion much on the matter. In 3 years they'll be begging to get rid of that contract the way they were prior to this past season.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby shmenguin on Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:15 pm

steelhammer wrote:Basically, they signed him to a contract at a value equal to his career best season that he produced at 29 years old.

the contract would have been for 6-7 million a year if they used last season as the basis. and despite the CBA business, inflation is still affecting new contracts. so him getting a 600K raise is practically a pay cut, in effect - and this is despite coming off of a career year.

and i do think "steady" is a pretty apt term for hartnell. he had a down year in 09, but his last 7 years overall have been pretty consistent.

there would have been a line of other teams behind philly ready to offer him this contract if he went to free agency.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby canaan on Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:15 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Why shouldn't they be able to LTIR Pronger? If he isn't still suffering from the concussion, he'll be playing. If you don't believe that, then you missed the rest of his career. Its not a loophole. Neither technically nor practically.

yeah, its the most legitimate case for it. Pronger is in bad shape. I have no problem with the LTIR.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby shmenguin on Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:31 pm

there's nothing fishy about pronger's status. they want him on the ice at that salary. it's not mike rathje 2.0.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby steelhammer on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:07 pm

shmenguin wrote:
steelhammer wrote:Basically, they signed him to a contract at a value equal to his career best season that he produced at 29 years old.

the contract would have been for 6-7 million a year if they used last season as the basis. and despite the CBA business, inflation is still affecting new contracts. so him getting a 600K raise is practically a pay cut, in effect - and this is despite coming off of a career year.

and i do think "steady" is a pretty apt term for hartnell. he had a down year in 09, but his last 7 years overall have been pretty consistent.

there would have been a line of other teams behind philly ready to offer him this contract if he went to free agency.


First off, I already stated that I thought the contract was for $5.5M/year and not $4.75M/year based on the original post. That being said, I wouldn't offer a 6-year contract at $5.5M/year to a player with one 67-point season.

$6M-$7M for a sole 67-point season at 29 years old is a terrible, terrible investment. More so considering he'll be 31 when the actual new contract kicks in. Players in the $7M range include Joe Thornton, Jason Spezza and Jarome Igninla. A 67-point season from either of them is considered a bad season. $6M range is Zetterberg & Sedin(s). Same.

As for what he is actually getting paid, $4.75M/year for 6 years, that is a losing battle for the Flyers. He'll struggle to get 60 points and pretty soon he'll be struggling to get 50 points playing with one of the top-5 centers in the game (if he can last that long on the top line). Some people think that is worth $4.75M/season, I don't.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby Gaucho on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:25 pm

I'll go out on a limb and say that of the 30 GMs in the league, roughly 30 would be delighted to be able to sign Scott Hartnell to that contract.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby dman66 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:38 pm

JoseCuervo wrote:
dman66 wrote:Just seems like the Flyer's do whatever they want and are never over the cap, never have to give players away, or never lose any key players. So frustrating.


They've been using a pretty similar model to build their team for a while now. I don't understand how it's frustrating because it hasn't worked.


It's frustrating because I just want them to be horrible, every single year.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby canaan on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:20 am

It comes down to people equating current salaries and not realizing the % in which the cap has increased over the last couple of years. Hartnell's cap % v. his production is a good ROI. People want to blindly denigrate this move because it is a rival's move
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby Fire0nice228 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:17 am

I guess its decent if its 67 pts every season but 4 years down the line or 5 when he doesnt put up those kinda numbers and is a 4th line player that takes too many penalties how will it be? I believe eventually the cap will flatten out and not keep going up and up and I think we're getting close to that upper limit as it is.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:23 am

Why would he become a 4th line player?
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby shmenguin on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:29 am

Fire0nice228 wrote:I guess its decent if its 67 pts every season but 4 years down the line or 5 when he doesnt put up those kinda numbers and is a 4th line player that takes too many penalties how will it be? I believe eventually the cap will flatten out and not keep going up and up and I think we're getting close to that upper limit as it is.


what parts of hartnell's game will deteriorate so rapidly because of age? his hands and skating are already crud. his style of game can be played from a wheelchair
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby viva la ben on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:36 am

My critique with deal was based on the initial number that was floated out there 5.5 per for 6 years...that's James Neal money. Even at 4.7 per it seems a little high.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby Zach6668 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:23 am

viva la ben wrote:My critique with deal was based on the initial number that was floated out there 5.5 per for 6 years...that's James Neal money. Even at 4.7 per it seems a little high.


James Neal money? James Neal didn't even get James Neal money.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby steelhammer on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:29 pm

canaan wrote:It comes down to people equating current salaries and not realizing the % in which the cap has increased over the last couple of years. Hartnell's cap % v. his production is a good ROI. People want to blindly denigrate this move because it is a rival's move


It sounds like what people are looking for is a list of players who signed long/expensive contracts and demonstrated not long after that they would not be living up to those cap hits ever again? More than happy to provide that:

1. Eric Staal - $8.25M for 7 years
2. Rick Nash - $7.8M for 8 years
3. Dany Heatley - $7.5M for 6 years
4. Scott Gomez - $7.36M for 8 years
5. Vincent Lecavalier - $7.73M for 11 years
6. Tomas Vanek - $7.27M for 7 years

Elias, Richards (both), Horcoff, Havlat, etc. There are plenty of bad contracts out there. Is this one of them? I think it will be, but we'll see how it plays out.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby shmenguin on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:00 pm

steelhammer wrote:It sounds like what people are looking for is a list of players who signed long/expensive contracts and demonstrated not long after that they would not be living up to those cap hits ever again?


i don't think anyone's asked for that
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby steelhammer on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:15 pm

You said it with your eyes, shmenguin.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby Fire0nice228 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:57 am

Idoit40fans wrote:Why would he become a 4th line player?


He played on the 4th line at times this season, especially at the start.

We're all Pens fans here so I'm not going to argue anymore about it, I just happen to believe that this contract will be an albatross in a few years, but I guess that remains to be seen what happens with the CBA and the cap. Hartnell looks like a steal compared to guys like Horcoff and Gomez but we'll see. I think we're close to the cap ceiling limit for awhile and that it won't keep shooting up and up as it has been.

Anyways, I think that since he's a Flyer we can all agree that we hope he has 6 miserable seasons once that deal kicks in. Think about it, the Flyers have locked in Hartnell until 2019..
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:04 pm

I am thinking about it, and if the Penguins had done it, I'd be happy. He's been consistently good season to season for a while now, and he's not old.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby steelhammer on Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:16 pm

Before this past season, in his first 10 seasons he averaged 20 goals and 44 points per 82 game season with a shooting percentage of 10.7%. Expect him to return to this form within a couple seasons. Maybe worse since he accomplished this in his early/mid 20's and he'll be in his early 30's?
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby shmenguin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:07 pm

steelhammer wrote:Before this past season, in his first 10 seasons he averaged 20 goals and 44 points per 82 game season with a shooting percentage of 10.7%. Expect him to return to this form within a couple seasons. Maybe worse since he accomplished this in his early/mid 20's and he'll be in his early 30's?


you're trying to figure out what his true mean value is, and you decide to include his rookie season where he was playing probably 5 minutes a game with scrubs, and not his most recent season where he was playing the best hockey of his career.

i see the point you're trying to make, but these numbers are really, really fuzzy
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby Pitts on Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:00 pm

Hartnell's really, really fuzzy. I hate him. I hope he fails miserably and the entire Philly team goes into a slump so bad they never get out of it again while they pay all these losers over-inflated contracts until they are 55 years old.

:P
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby canaan on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:02 pm

4.75mil isnt going to be an albatross no matter what Hartnell does or does not do. The implication is based on what? The contracts listed above are longer in length and nearly double the salaries by current cap projections. My head hurts.

And I swear to the baby Jesus, if you bring up dipietro, I'm gonna stone cold stun you over the Internet, because the two contracts aren't anywhere close to each other on any level. Even if he's bought out after year 1, the money available by the flyers is a whole different plane than that of a financially strapped NYI.
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Re: Hartnell extended

Postby Fire0nice228 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:24 am

Dipietro, what?

Long and short I don't believe Hartnell will last as a 30-30 player for the next 6 years (7 really), you obviously feel different.
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