Where the refs at?

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Where the refs at?

Postby PensHckyFan79 on Mon May 06, 2013 8:04 am

Maybe we can keep a thread going to talk about weird reffing scenarios or just talk abut reffing stuff in general. I used to be a level 3 ref before getting a job and a contributing member of the real world and I'm thinking maybe I'll get back into it next season.

Anyways The Sens Hab game got me thinking about a certain scenario. Subban had a high stick on Pague, and Pague scored on the play (at least thats how NHL.com made me believe it happened so if not play along), so you award the goal report the penalty and continue to play 5v5, but Subban's stick knocked out a tooth which I would consider drawing blood so he gets an extra 2 correct. So goal counts plus a power play for the Sens?
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon May 06, 2013 8:14 am

That's how I would have called it.

But Pague would have to be bleeding for me to make that call.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby Beveridge on Mon May 06, 2013 8:20 am

PensHckyFan79 wrote:Maybe we can keep a thread going to talk about weird reffing scenarios or just talk abut reffing stuff in general. I used to be a level 3 ref before getting a job and a contributing member of the real world and I'm thinking maybe I'll get back into it next season.

Anyways The Sens Hab game got me thinking about a certain scenario. Subban had a high stick on Pague, and Pague scored on the play (at least thats how NHL.com made me believe it happened so if not play along), so you award the goal report the penalty and continue to play 5v5, but Subban's stick knocked out a tooth which I would consider drawing blood so he gets an extra 2 correct. So goal counts plus a power play for the Sens?



Isn't that what happened? They showed the rules on the feed for what happens if there is a 4 minute penalty when it results in a goal like that. I thought Subban gets called for 4, only serves 2 since they scored.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby shoeshine boy on Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:That's how I would have called it.

But Pague would have to be bleeding for me to make that call.


and he was bleeding as he picked his teeth up off the ice.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby brwi on Mon May 06, 2013 8:56 am

Beveridge wrote:
PensHckyFan79 wrote:Maybe we can keep a thread going to talk about weird reffing scenarios or just talk abut reffing stuff in general. I used to be a level 3 ref before getting a job and a contributing member of the real world and I'm thinking maybe I'll get back into it next season.

Anyways The Sens Hab game got me thinking about a certain scenario. Subban had a high stick on Pague, and Pague scored on the play (at least thats how NHL.com made me believe it happened so if not play along), so you award the goal report the penalty and continue to play 5v5, but Subban's stick knocked out a tooth which I would consider drawing blood so he gets an extra 2 correct. So goal counts plus a power play for the Sens?



Isn't that what happened? They showed the rules on the feed for what happens if there is a 4 minute penalty when it results in a goal like that. I thought Subban gets called for 4, only serves 2 since they scored.


Exactly. They put up the role between periods to explain that situation. I forget which announcer got the call right live and I applaud his knowledge of the rulebook because I didn't know that scenario either.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby PensHckyFan79 on Mon May 06, 2013 12:07 pm

I didn't see the play live, just saw a caption on NHL.com saying he scored while losing his tooth, that's what prompted my question. I assumed the NHL refs would make the right call.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby mikey287 on Mon May 06, 2013 12:14 pm

PensHckyFan79 wrote:Maybe we can keep a thread going to talk about weird reffing scenarios or just talk abut reffing stuff in general. I used to be a level 3 ref before getting a job and a contributing member of the real world and I'm thinking maybe I'll get back into it next season.

Anyways The Sens Hab game got me thinking about a certain scenario. Subban had a high stick on Pague, and Pague scored on the play (at least thats how NHL.com made me believe it happened so if not play along), so you award the goal report the penalty and continue to play 5v5, but Subban's stick knocked out a tooth which I would consider drawing blood so he gets an extra 2 correct. So goal counts plus a power play for the Sens?


The penalty was enforced correctly, but announced incorrectly.

P.K. Subban's stick was attempting to slash Jean-Gabriel Pageau's stick on a scoring chance and it rode up and clipped Ottawa's Pageau in the face causing an injury. The referee put his arm up to indicate a delayed penalty. While the delayed penalty was on, Pageau scored. In an ordinary course, this would negate the penalty. However, due to the injury sustained from the high stick, the referee is compelled to make the high stick a four-minute double minor.

AIUI, the correct way to handle this is to inform the scorer's box that Subban has been assessed a four-minute double-minor. Of which, the first penalty has been negated by the goal. The penalty should be announced and recorded as a four-minute double minor for high sticking but only two minutes should be put on the board. An ordinary course power play should follow.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby relantel on Mon May 06, 2013 12:34 pm

mikey287 wrote:
PensHckyFan79 wrote:Maybe we can keep a thread going to talk about weird reffing scenarios or just talk abut reffing stuff in general. I used to be a level 3 ref before getting a job and a contributing member of the real world and I'm thinking maybe I'll get back into it next season.

Anyways The Sens Hab game got me thinking about a certain scenario. Subban had a high stick on Pague, and Pague scored on the play (at least thats how NHL.com made me believe it happened so if not play along), so you award the goal report the penalty and continue to play 5v5, but Subban's stick knocked out a tooth which I would consider drawing blood so he gets an extra 2 correct. So goal counts plus a power play for the Sens?


The penalty was enforced correctly, but announced incorrectly.

P.K. Subban's stick was attempting to slash Jean-Gabriel Pageau's stick on a scoring chance and it rode up and clipped Ottawa's Pageau in the face causing an injury. The referee put his arm up to indicate a delayed penalty. While the delayed penalty was on, Pageau scored. In an ordinary course, this would negate the penalty. However, due to the injury sustained from the high stick, the referee is compelled to make the high stick a four-minute double minor.

AIUI, the correct way to handle this is to inform the scorer's box that Subban has been assessed a four-minute double-minor. Of which, the first penalty has been negated by the goal. The penalty should be announced and recorded as a four-minute double minor for high sticking but only two minutes should be put on the board. An ordinary course power play should follow.


Well explained. It's like any delayed penalty, it wipes out the minor, only the 2nd minor is still in palce. The Goal is not a power play goal.

Code: Select all
169 2 EV 4:40 15:20 GOAL OTT #44 PAGEAU(1), Wrist, Off. Zone, 16 ft.
Assists: #55 GONCHAR(2); #3 METHOT(2)
 
 
170 2 EV 4:40 15:20 PENL MTL #76 SUBBAN Hi-sticking(2 min) Drawn By: OTT #44 PAGEAU 27 
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby DelPen on Mon May 06, 2013 2:31 pm

They don't actually record penalties that get wiped by goals, do they?
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby relantel on Mon May 06, 2013 4:11 pm

DelPen wrote:They don't actually record penalties that get wiped by goals, do they?

generally, no.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby PensHckyFan79 on Mon May 06, 2013 5:49 pm

In USA Hockey youth games you need to because if they reach a limit of penalties a player or if a team reaches a limit the head coach will be suspended for the next game (I think it was like 5 for a player and like 13 for a team) I'm not 100% sure on those numbers, but I feel confident in the rule (maybe I just made it up)
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby shoeshine boy on Tue May 07, 2013 8:50 am

we do in our beer league because if you have 4 minors or a total of 10 minutes in penalties you're tossed for the remainder of the game. keeps the goonism down.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby Steve on Tue May 07, 2013 9:33 am

The weirdest one I remember, is when Gonchar (with the Pens) scored on the powerplay, but no one saw it go in and play went on - and then he preceeded to haul down a penalty killer on a breakaway, and the ref pointed to center ice for a penalty shot. They then went to review, and saw that the puck was clearly in.

Anyone remember this - and how did they handled the reviewed goal and subsquent penalty shot call by the ref?

Spoiler:
Goal Penguins and a two minute penalty to Gonch for tripping
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby Steve on Tue May 07, 2013 9:36 am

The other weird one I never saw before was the Pens killed off a Malkin minor - and as Geno was coming out of the box, he played the puck and they immediately blew the whistle, calling another penalty on Geno.

I thought that he came out of the box too soon, but actually he still had one foot in the penalty box when they played the puck - and I think that's what the ref said when he announced the penalty "playing the puck while still in the penalty box" - or something like that.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby relantel on Tue May 07, 2013 6:11 pm

Steve wrote:The weirdest one I remember, is when Gonchar (with the Pens) scored on the powerplay, but no one saw it go in and play went on - and then he preceeded to haul down a penalty killer on a breakaway, and the ref pointed to center ice for a penalty shot. They then went to review, and saw that the puck was clearly in.

Anyone remember this - and how did they handled the reviewed goal and subsquent penalty shot call by the ref?

Spoiler:
Goal Penguins and a two minute penalty to Gonch for tripping

by rights the only item that should stand after a goal on review like that is a Major penalty. Minors should be wiped out as having never happened, since that clock time never happened.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby Steve on Tue May 07, 2013 11:04 pm

relantel wrote:
Steve wrote:The weirdest one I remember, is when Gonchar (with the Pens) scored on the powerplay, but no one saw it go in and play went on - and then he preceeded to haul down a penalty killer on a breakaway, and the ref pointed to center ice for a penalty shot. They then went to review, and saw that the puck was clearly in.

Anyone remember this - and how did they handled the reviewed goal and subsquent penalty shot call by the ref?

Spoiler:
Goal Penguins and a two minute penalty to Gonch for tripping

by rights the only item that should stand after a goal on review like that is a Major penalty. Minors should be wiped out as having never happened, since that clock time never happened.


That makes sense to me, but the original call wasn't a minor penalty, it was a penalty shot.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby meow on Wed May 08, 2013 10:45 am

I'm seeing more and more of NHL refs not communicating with each other. Look at last night's Van-SJ game. The boarding call on Daniel Sedin was made from the neutral zone, not from the ref 4 FEET FROM THE PLAY!!! The in-zone ref needs to yell good, or shake his head no, or even give a washout to signal his partner he saw the play and isn't going to make a call.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby Kraftster on Wed May 08, 2013 10:49 am

meow wrote:I'm seeing more and more of NHL refs not communicating with each other. Look at last night's Van-SJ game. The boarding call on Daniel Sedin was made from the neutral zone, not from the ref 4 FEET FROM THE PLAY!!! The in-zone ref needs to yell good, or shake his head no, or even give a washout to signal his partner he saw the play and isn't going to make a call.


Yeah, I have seen a lot of that. It is frustrating to see the ref right there let something go only to have it called by a guy who might as well be in the fourth row.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby mikey287 on Wed May 08, 2013 3:03 pm

Their eyes aren't necessarily on the puck at all times. It depends on the play situation as to whether refs are watching the same thing. You can't assume that your partner saw the same thing as you.

Though I totally understand the potential frustration with that situation.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby meow on Wed May 08, 2013 9:01 pm

mikey287 wrote:Their eyes aren't necessarily on the puck at all times. It depends on the play situation as to whether refs are watching the same thing. You can't assume that your partner saw the same thing as you.

Though I totally understand the potential frustration with that situation.

Right, their eyes aren't always on the puck, but in this case, the ref was definitely looking right at the play. Very rarely am I tough on officials because I know the speed of the game, but this was poor officiating all around.
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby shmenguin on Thu May 09, 2013 6:52 am

relantel wrote:
Steve wrote:The weirdest one I remember, is when Gonchar (with the Pens) scored on the powerplay, but no one saw it go in and play went on - and then he preceeded to haul down a penalty killer on a breakaway, and the ref pointed to center ice for a penalty shot. They then went to review, and saw that the puck was clearly in.

Anyone remember this - and how did they handled the reviewed goal and subsquent penalty shot call by the ref?

Spoiler:
Goal Penguins and a two minute penalty to Gonch for tripping

by rights the only item that should stand after a goal on review like that is a Major penalty. Minors should be wiped out as having never happened, since that clock time never happened.


I think roughing penalties or any "violent" penalties stand - not just majors. We got burned by this a few years ago IIRC
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby Steve on Thu May 09, 2013 11:02 am

I think they treat those penalties, as they would for stuff that happens after the whistle. So you can't award a penalty shot after the whistle, but you could of course give someone a roughing penalty etc.

I'm still unsure how they went from penalty shot, to a trip for Gonch - I remember the announcers talking about it, but I don't remember what the specific comments were...
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby the wicked child on Thu May 09, 2013 7:41 pm

Iirc, I remember the opposing coach saying "they told me you can't have 2 goals occur at the same time of the game. Well, why can't you?"
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby Mango Salsa on Mon May 13, 2013 10:01 am

meow wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Their eyes aren't necessarily on the puck at all times. It depends on the play situation as to whether refs are watching the same thing. You can't assume that your partner saw the same thing as you.

Though I totally understand the potential frustration with that situation.

Right, their eyes aren't always on the puck, but in this case, the ref was definitely looking right at the play. Very rarely am I tough on officials because I know the speed of the game, but this was poor officiating all around.



Sometimes its easier to see from far away with the wider field of view. Ive done baseball & hockey & always hated when plays happened right in front of me. It was easier to see from further away
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Re: Where the refs at?

Postby relantel on Mon May 13, 2013 11:33 am

the wicked child wrote:Iirc, I remember the opposing coach saying "they told me you can't have 2 goals occur at the same time of the game. Well, why can't you?"

It's also why a later goal scored before the next stoppage would have been negated, no matter which side.

In the OT on Saturday, I half thought the Pens had an in & out before Orpik scored, a few minutes earlier. Assume it was nothing, as I am pretty sure there was a stoppage/face off between that and the final goal.
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