Drafting

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Drafting

Postby Jim on Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:41 am

I was looking at draft histories as I wanted to see just how bad, or good, the Pens had done over the last 20 years or so. ....but this is NPR section...

I decided to look at a few other teams and something really surprising happened. I always considered Detroit to be really good at drafting and developing talent. However... They haven't drafted a player that I would consider an impact player since 2004, Franzen. They have a few newer players that play in the NHL, but no one special. And their last really "good" draft was 2002. I was just expecting name after name after name to come from their draft table.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005492.html
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Re: Drafting

Postby mikey287 on Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:52 am

If you want "Detroit" from recent years, check out Dallas. They have done a terrific job scouting in recent years. But if you don't follow some of these players that aren't quite in the show yet, it's tough to appreciate just yet.

Detroit had a good 2005 draft, three full time NHLers for sure, good players. Gustav Nyquist from 2008 will be an impact player.

But yeah, Detroit is overrated in their drafting in recent years. Dallas is the talk of the league and has been for a couple years now...
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Re: Drafting

Postby canaan on Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:33 pm

The Kings have done a formidable job drafting since 2005.

2005
Kopitar, Quick

2006
Bernier, Lewis, Zatkoff

2007
Hickey, Moller, Simmonds, Martinez, King

2008
Doughty, Teubert, Voynov, Loktionov

2009
Schenn, Clifford, Nolan

2010
Tiffoli
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Re: Drafting

Postby mikey287 on Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:09 pm

Yeah, that's good there...except, and not to take away from the point, but Colten Teubert is a total bust. I think he was a mid first round pick from the Dub...
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Re: Drafting

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:10 pm

I thought Teubert got traded to Edmonton?
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Re: Drafting

Postby mikey287 on Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:10 pm

MRandall25 wrote:I thought Teubert got traded to Edmonton?


He did. I don't think they qualified him this past offseason.
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Re: Drafting

Postby tfrizz on Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:55 pm

mikey287 wrote:If you want "Detroit" from recent years, check out Dallas. They have done a terrific job scouting in recent years. But if you don't follow some of these players that aren't quite in the show yet, it's tough to appreciate just yet.

Detroit had a good 2005 draft, three full time NHLers for sure, good players. Gustav Nyquist from 2008 will be an impact player.

But yeah, Detroit is overrated in their drafting in recent years. Dallas is the talk of the league and has been for a couple years now...


Detroit's scouting, as a whole, has never been all that great. Where they've always tended to excel is in European scouting. That is how they got gems like Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the 6th and 7th rounds. Though, realistically, to get players like that so late in the draft has a lot more to do with luck than anything else.
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Re: Drafting

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:56 pm

Thats what i was going to say. Theyre viewed as great because they lucked out on those two. They develop solid players by taking their time with developing them and not bringing them on until they are ready.
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Re: Drafting

Postby tfrizz on Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:06 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Thats what i was going to say. Theyre viewed as great because they lucked out on those two. They develop solid players by taking their time with developing them and not bringing them on until they are ready.


They've always been very patient with their prospects. Look at Jimmy Howard whom a lot of people view as "a great young goalie" but will actually be 30 years old by playoffs. Howard seems younger than he is because he wasn't rushed into the NHL. He played 3 years of college hockey in Maine then spent 4 seasons with Grand Rapids before taking over the Wings' starting job as a 25-year-old.
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Re: Drafting

Postby Beveridge on Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:50 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Thats what i was going to say. Theyre viewed as great because they lucked out on those two. They develop solid players by taking their time with developing them and not bringing them on until they are ready.


Sounds familiar yet the idea is being blasted in other sections of the forums. :pop:
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Re: Drafting

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:33 pm

Beveridge wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Thats what i was going to say. Theyre viewed as great because they lucked out on those two. They develop solid players by taking their time with developing them and not bringing them on until they are ready.


Sounds familiar yet the idea is being blasted in other sections of the forums. :pop:


Really? Sounds like the correct way to develop players and a team is being blasted for being unable to properly do it in another section of the site.
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Re: Drafting

Postby pcm on Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:30 pm

Just like Engelland and Vitale... who are finally NHL ready.

Spoiler:
At 32 and 28 years old.
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Re: Drafting

Postby mikey287 on Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:00 pm

Also, understand that just because a player doesn't get picked until late, doesn't mean that they don't think he's worthy of a higher pick. Henrik Zetterberg was fairly highly thought of by the Wings staff as I recall, but they thought, "why bother using a 2nd round pick on a guy that no one has ever heard of?" So while luck plays a role certainly, there's also the utilization of pick value.

It did burn the Red Wings at least once (trying to wait, that is), as a result Alexander Edler plays for Vancouver today instead of Detroit.
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Re: Drafting

Postby Kraftster on Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:21 am

That always struck me as BS. I can't buy anyone has the balls (hubris? Stupidity?) to wait on a guy if they really believe he could turn into a 1000 point scorer.

Now, I'm not saying it's luck, just that the scout team didn't actually project Zetterberg, for example, to be what he's become. I guess if truly no one knows about the guy...that seems impossible, though, but that's probably me forgetting what life was like 15 years ago, information wise.
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Re: Drafting

Postby mikey287 on Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:55 am

No, no, no, certainly they couldn't have expected Zetterberg to turn out like he did. Datsyuk was a not-particularly-fast, noodle-armed stickhandler...I mean, they didn't know it would turn out like this...but they had the ability to wait on these guys, who they thought could be real diamonds in the rough, because no one else knew about them...

Stars did the same thing two years ago with Dmitry Sinitsyn...he was from their own backyard, didn't really play in his draft year, they thought if people knew that he existed he would have at least been a 5th rounder, maybe even better...can definitely skate, pro-level shot at 17 years old, he can play. But they got him with one of the last picks in the draft because they knew no one else knew he existed due to his limited exposure...
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Re: Drafting

Postby meow on Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:23 am

I did a quick search to find how teams were constructed - the number of players drafted, signed as free agents, claimed off waivers, and received via trade.

DR FA WVR TRD TOT
ANA 8 9 0 8 25
BOS 6 6 0 11 23
BUF 11 4 0 6 21
CAL 5 6 0 14 25
CAR 9 9 0 8 26
CHI 12 7 0 5 24
COL 7 9 1 8 25
CBJ 8 3 0 15 26
DAL 4 9 1 10 24
DET 12 8 1 1 22
EDM 10 9 3 4 26
FLA 5 14 0 5 24
LA 13 3 0 10 26
MIN 8 10 0 6 24
MON 9 9 0 6 24
NAS 14 6 1 3 24
NJD 9 11 1 4 25
NYI 13 6 4 3 26
NYR 8 8 0 7 23
OTT 14 2 0 7 23
PHI 4 6 1 14 25
PHX 7 8 1 7 23
PIT 9 9 1 7 26
SJ 11 4 0 10 25
STL 10 6 0 8 24
TB 8 11 1 8 28
TOR 5 8 1 11 25
VAN 7 7 2 8 24
WSH 10 9 2 5 26
WPG 11 4 4 8 27

Now, this obviously doesn't tell the whole story, but there are some conclusion that can be drawn from this. Another way to research it would be to look at all 750 or so NHL players and rank the teams that drafted NHL talent. That's a whole bowl of wax, though.
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Re: Drafting

Postby Dickie Dunn on Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:42 pm

meow wrote:I did a quick search to find how teams were constructed - the number of players drafted, signed as free agents, claimed off waivers, and received via trade.

DR FA WVR TRD TOT
ANA 8 9 0 8 25
BOS 6 6 0 11 23
BUF 11 4 0 6 21
CAL 5 6 0 14 25
CAR 9 9 0 8 26
CHI 12 7 0 5 24
COL 7 9 1 8 25
CBJ 8 3 0 15 26
DAL 4 9 1 10 24
DET 12 8 1 1 22
EDM 10 9 3 4 26
FLA 5 14 0 5 24
LA 13 3 0 10 26
MIN 8 10 0 6 24
MON 9 9 0 6 24
NAS 14 6 1 3 24
NJD 9 11 1 4 25
NYI 13 6 4 3 26
NYR 8 8 0 7 23
OTT 14 2 0 7 23
PHI 4 6 1 14 25
PHX 7 8 1 7 23
PIT 9 9 1 7 26
SJ 11 4 0 10 25
STL 10 6 0 8 24
TB 8 11 1 8 28
TOR 5 8 1 11 25
VAN 7 7 2 8 24
WSH 10 9 2 5 26
WPG 11 4 4 8 27

Now, this obviously doesn't tell the whole story, but there are some conclusion that can be drawn from this. Another way to research it would be to look at all 750 or so NHL players and rank the teams that drafted NHL talent. That's a whole bowl of wax, though.


I thought it was a ball of wax. A bowl of wax makes me picture someone cleaning their ears and storing it in a bowl. Thanks for that.
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Re: Drafting

Postby no name on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:22 pm

Jim wrote:I was looking at draft histories as I wanted to see just how bad, or good, the Pens had done over the last 20 years or so. ....but this is NPR section...

I decided to look at a few other teams and something really surprising happened. I always considered Detroit to be really good at drafting and developing talent. However... They haven't drafted a player that I would consider an impact player since 2004, Franzen. They have a few newer players that play in the NHL, but no one special. And their last really "good" draft was 2002. I was just expecting name after name after name to come from their draft table.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005492.html


I read an article saying Detroit takes alot longer bringing along players than most teams. Its not unlike for Detroit to keep a player in the minors for a few more years until they feel they are ready to contribute.
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Re: Drafting

Postby meow on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:28 pm

Dickie Dunn wrote:I thought it was a ball of wax. A bowl of wax makes me picture someone cleaning their ears and storing it in a bowl. Thanks for that.

Well now I can edit it because you quoted it. Thanks a lot.
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Re: Drafting

Postby canaan on Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:17 pm

i cleaned up the work meow did

Code: Select all
     DR  FA  WVR TRD  TOT
ANA   8   9   0    8   25
BOS   6   6   0   11   23
BUF   11  4   0    6   21
CAL   5   6   0   14   25
CAR   9   9   0    8   26
CHI   12  7   0    5   24
COL   7   9   1    8   25
CBJ   8   3   0   15   26
DAL   4   9   1   10   24
DET   12  8   1    1   22
EDM   10  9   3    4   26
FLA   5   14  0    5   24
LA    13  3   0   10   26
MIN   8   10  0    6   24
MON   9   9   0    6   24
NAS   14  6   1    3   24
NJD   9   11  1    4   25
NYI   13  6   4    3   26
NYR   8   8   0    7   23
OTT   14  2   0    7   23
PHI   4   6   1   14   25
PHX   7   8   1    7   23
PIT   9   9   1    7   26
SJ    11  4   0   10   25
STL   10  6   0    8   24
TB    8   11  1    8   28
TOR   5   8   1   11   25
VAN   7   7   2    8   24
WSH   10  9   2    5   26
WPG   11  4   4    8   27
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Re: Drafting

Postby Rylan on Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:18 pm

meow, how did you point out guys like Scuderi? Guys that were originally drafted by a team, left, then came back? I am certain you made that person a FA, but I am just curious.
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Re: Drafting

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:59 pm

Based on my count, he specifically is not counted as being drafted for Pittsburgh.
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Re: Drafting

Postby meow on Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:56 pm

Rylan wrote:meow, how did you point out guys like Scuderi? Guys that were originally drafted by a team, left, then came back? I am certain you made that person a FA, but I am just curious.

It is the last transaction that brought the player to the team. Scuderi would be a FA signing. That is a definitely flaw in looking at it this way.
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Re: Drafting

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:03 pm

What is flawed about that? It would be flawed if he were counted as a drafted player.
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Re: Drafting

Postby meow on Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:10 pm

In this context, it would be flawed because we are looking at an organizations ability to draft NHL players.
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