Official Gameday Thread - Pens @ Canes - 11-11-06

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Postby netwolf on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:10 pm

The non-goal was obviously a big deal, but it's not what cost them the game. They killed off the Ruutu penalty, which was taken at 4:21. The Canes didn't get the 4th goal until 8:00.

The Pens were still in the game until that point.
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Postby NIN on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:16 pm

dagny wrote:I've strongly disagreed with all the criticism about the line shuffling. Yes, chemistry is more important than can be stated, however, these guys need to be able to play, contribute, produce with ANY linemates. That's how a good team survives. Your usual linemates aren't ALWAYS available. It's also important to see who can play together and who can't. These are youngsters, new to the NHL and Therrien needs to see what they can do.

I wanted Crosby and Malkin separated. First, Malkin looks so out of place, even lost most of the time. Second, I want to see him in his natural position. I want to see him make plays, and I think he'll be better utilized because that seems to be what he wants to do, as well. He's a brilliant center, but an above average winger.

I've been for the line experiments, and they haven't all been bad. They just need some time to get used to playing with other linemates. Once they get past that, the combos Therrien can send out there will be unstoppable and unpredictable. Versatility.

Besides, their biggest problem has been playing with discipline. That needs to be part of the character regardless of the mitigating factors.


Very good post.

Just because their dek-hockey team keeps the same lines together that does'nt mean PROFESSIONAL hockey players HAVE to do the same thing. They have played more games of hockey with more different linemates then anybody here will ever know. Only when you find SUCCESS do you remain static. NHL coaches in todays game need to be able to think dynamically if they want to survive in this league. What works one night might not work the next.

Don't take my word for it, just ask Jack Adam's award winning coach Lindy Ruff of the NHL's point leading Buffalo Sabres. They rotate their lines around when things arent working and they are pretty successful at it yes???
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Postby stucky76 on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:27 pm

I can't even begin to describe how bad this game was. What's up with Therrien putting Recchi and I think Moore on the ice for that 4 on 4 with 4 minutes to go instead of putting Malkin and Crosby together? Both Malkin and Crosby were not on the ice the prior shift!!! The refs were rancid tonight. That **** call on Armstrong when he "held" Cole was BS. Cole even took Army to the ice and looked at the ref because he knew it was him that was supposed to get the penalty, not Army.....UGH....I am just so pissed that we are taking so many penalties and making so many blind passes. Heck, we can't do a breakout to save our lives and oh yeah....WHITNEY ABSOLUTELY BLEW TONIGHT.......
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Postby DelPen on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:29 pm

booboo wrote:
Three Stars wrote:
booboo wrote:We need #87 to do something
useful for a change.


Saturday Nov 11, 2006 9:45 pm. The moment the first Pens fan turned on Sidney Crosby.


Nonsense. I love the kid. He just needs to be put in a position to produce.
I doubt he is, even if he grinds like crazy (and he did, especially in the second period tonight).


It is nonsense. Crosby is better than what he's shown the last 6 games. He's the best player on this team, it's time he strats playing like it again.
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Postby DelPen on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:32 pm

NIN wrote:
dagny wrote:I've strongly disagreed with all the criticism about the line shuffling. Yes, chemistry is more important than can be stated, however, these guys need to be able to play, contribute, produce with ANY linemates. That's how a good team survives. Your usual linemates aren't ALWAYS available. It's also important to see who can play together and who can't. These are youngsters, new to the NHL and Therrien needs to see what they can do.

I wanted Crosby and Malkin separated. First, Malkin looks so out of place, even lost most of the time. Second, I want to see him in his natural position. I want to see him make plays, and I think he'll be better utilized because that seems to be what he wants to do, as well. He's a brilliant center, but an above average winger.

I've been for the line experiments, and they haven't all been bad. They just need some time to get used to playing with other linemates. Once they get past that, the combos Therrien can send out there will be unstoppable and unpredictable. Versatility.

Besides, their biggest problem has been playing with discipline. That needs to be part of the character regardless of the mitigating factors.


Very good post.

Just because their dek-hockey team keeps the same lines together that does'nt mean PROFESSIONAL hockey players HAVE to do the same thing. They have played more games of hockey with more different linemates then anybody here will ever know. Only when you find SUCCESS do you remain static. NHL coaches in todays game need to be able to think dynamically if they want to survive in this league. What works one night might not work the next.

Don't take my word for it, just ask Jack Adam's award winning coach Lindy Ruff of the NHL's point leading Buffalo Sabres. They rotate their lines around when things arent working and they are pretty successful at it yes???


But they were winning with the the lines during the win streak on offense and defense. But 10 minutes of adversity against an elite team cause Therrien to jumble everything up for the next 4+ games. Go back to what won.
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Postby dagny on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:34 pm

Guido wrote:
However, THIS IS NOT A GOOD TEAM.

This is a young team with many free agents and first/second year guys that have never played before.


Exactly my point. We're building for the future, right? They're building towards being a good, even great team. Better to start teaching them now, so the versatility becomes built-in. Buffalo is exactly who I think of in these terms. They're young, they change lines, and the work ethic is impeccable.

Guido wrote:Let them build confidence and cohesion with a few linemates first before shuffling them around. This will only lead to turn overs and few scoring chances as they will not know what their linemates tendencies are.



Isn't that what they did for the win streak? Now the experimentation begins. We get to see what this team is really made of, rather than play it safe. Building is frustrating but patience will pay off. This team is heads and tails above what all the defeatists are saying.
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Postby NIN on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:41 pm

DelPen wrote:
NIN wrote:
dagny wrote:I've strongly disagreed with all the criticism about the line shuffling. Yes, chemistry is more important than can be stated, however, these guys need to be able to play, contribute, produce with ANY linemates. That's how a good team survives. Your usual linemates aren't ALWAYS available. It's also important to see who can play together and who can't. These are youngsters, new to the NHL and Therrien needs to see what they can do.

I wanted Crosby and Malkin separated. First, Malkin looks so out of place, even lost most of the time. Second, I want to see him in his natural position. I want to see him make plays, and I think he'll be better utilized because that seems to be what he wants to do, as well. He's a brilliant center, but an above average winger.

I've been for the line experiments, and they haven't all been bad. They just need some time to get used to playing with other linemates. Once they get past that, the combos Therrien can send out there will be unstoppable and unpredictable. Versatility.

Besides, their biggest problem has been playing with discipline. That needs to be part of the character regardless of the mitigating factors.


Very good post.

Just because their dek-hockey team keeps the same lines together that does'nt mean PROFESSIONAL hockey players HAVE to do the same thing. They have played more games of hockey with more different linemates then anybody here will ever know. Only when you find SUCCESS do you remain static. NHL coaches in todays game need to be able to think dynamically if they want to survive in this league. What works one night might not work the next.

Don't take my word for it, just ask Jack Adam's award winning coach Lindy Ruff of the NHL's point leading Buffalo Sabres. They rotate their lines around when things arent working and they are pretty successful at it yes???


But they were winning with the the lines during the win streak on offense and defense. But 10 minutes of adversity against an elite team cause Therrien to jumble everything up for the next 4+ games. Go back to what won.


What won vs. the teams they beat might not work vs. the better teams. If you have Neidermeyer and Prnger on the ice at the same time you would not want to match up all of your best forwards vs. them, you would want to move Malkin to another line in hopes of finding a matchup vs. a defensive pairing that isn't Godlike. Every team is different, every night is a new challenge. TO just say, "we won five games in a row so these are the lines for the rest of the season" is alittle far fetched. Certainly if the team had say:

Stevens--Lemieux--Tocchet
Sandtrom--Francis--Jagr

Then you would be so good that OTHER teams would be scrambling to find line combinations and defensive pairings to try and stop your two dominating lines. The Pens are not that good and with the cap keeping salaries in check they never will be. So in todays NHL line shuffling is very important. Lindy Ruff does it, and he will probably be hoisting the Cup this season. If not for injuries they would have won it last season.
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Postby DelPen on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:51 pm

NIN, the Sabres are deep enough that shuffing the lines gives a new look that's tough to defend. The same can't be said about the Pens. And the Lightning, Sens and Canes don't have a defensemen even close to Pronger or Nieds let alone two. It might have made sense that one game but now it's simply baffling that he hasn't gone back to those lines from a week ago.
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Postby NIN on Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:58 pm

DelPen wrote:NIN, the Sabres are deep enough that shuffing the lines gives a new look that's tough to defend. The same can't be said about the Pens. And the Lightning, Sens and Canes don't have a defensemen even close to Pronger or Nieds let alone two. It might have made sense that one game but now it's simply baffling that he hasn't gone back to those lines from a week ago.


The argument that you should be more talented to be able to shuffle lines is not a good one. Trully dominating teams keep their lines intact because they are affective each and every night. Teams that are struggling to score goals need to shake things up, every team in the league does it these days. The more talented the team the LESS they shuffle, not the more.

It's true that the Pens need a scoring winger and maybe an offensive righty shot from the point (good luck finding that).
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Postby DelPen on Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:08 am

NIN wrote:
DelPen wrote:NIN, the Sabres are deep enough that shuffing the lines gives a new look that's tough to defend. The same can't be said about the Pens. And the Lightning, Sens and Canes don't have a defensemen even close to Pronger or Nieds let alone two. It might have made sense that one game but now it's simply baffling that he hasn't gone back to those lines from a week ago.


The argument that you should be more talented to be able to shuffle lines is not a good one. Trully dominating teams keep their lines intact because they are affective each and every night. Teams that are struggling to score goals need to shake things up, every team in the league does it these days. The more talented the team the LESS they shuffle, not the more.

It's true that the Pens need a scoring winger and maybe an offensive righty shot from the point (good luck finding that).


But I fail to see a logical argument against going back to:

Malkin-Crosby-Army
Ekman-Staal-Rex
Leclair-Moore-Ouellet
Thornburn-Talbot-Ruutu

They worked fine and faced a little adversity against two of the best teams in the NHL. If there's a good reason why those shouldn't be the 4 lines I'd love to hear it.
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Postby ville5 on Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:13 am

dagny wrote:Did you guys see Talbot tell that blonde, who walked by, to call him? Funny stuff! :lol:

Thank God somebody else saw this. Mad Max is the man. The dude's scoring everywhere. Hittin on a blonde seconds before you're coming out for the 3rd. :lol:
First he's finger painting at Club Diesel and now he's gonna get some down home southern cooking. :wink:
Last edited by ville5 on Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NIN on Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:20 am

DelPen wrote:
NIN wrote:
DelPen wrote:NIN, the Sabres are deep enough that shuffing the lines gives a new look that's tough to defend. The same can't be said about the Pens. And the Lightning, Sens and Canes don't have a defensemen even close to Pronger or Nieds let alone two. It might have made sense that one game but now it's simply baffling that he hasn't gone back to those lines from a week ago.


The argument that you should be more talented to be able to shuffle lines is not a good one. Trully dominating teams keep their lines intact because they are affective each and every night. Teams that are struggling to score goals need to shake things up, every team in the league does it these days. The more talented the team the LESS they shuffle, not the more.

It's true that the Pens need a scoring winger and maybe an offensive righty shot from the point (good luck finding that).


But I fail to see a logical argument against going back to:

Malkin-Crosby-Army
Ekman-Staal-Rex
Leclair-Moore-Ouellet
Thornburn-Talbot-Ruutu

They worked fine and faced a little adversity against two of the best teams in the NHL. If there's a good reason why those shouldn't be the 4 lines I'd love to hear it.


I have nothing against going back to those line, but if they are not effective I have nothing against breaking them up again either. There is some grey area as to when a line is deemed ineffective anymore. maybe when that line goes without a shot for 5 or 6 shifts you think about breaking it up. There are always intangebles to consider too. Like who is hot, who is playing hurt and maybe isn't 100%, chemistry, matchups, the score, the amount of special teams play in a particular game, etc..

Right now Therrian and his staff are faced with a major delema: no scoring from the wingers. It's obvious that Colby is a solid NHL player (and I know it does'nt help to keep bringing up his struggles but...) who compliments highly skilled linemates. However, there is also a certain standard of performance that HE HIMSELF has set and he is not playing up to that standard. SO you shake things up, you try and light a fire or take some pressure off of him by giving him a more simplified role. Nobody knows what's going on with Colby but last season he was scoring more than ZERO goals every 15 games.

The coaching staff is doing a superb job and Therrian should be commended for that. It's time that these guys were treated like NHL veterens in my opinion. There is no reason why they should'nt be having alot of fun out there but at the same time they are pros and there are things that are expected from the fans.
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Postby Guido on Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:43 am

DelPen wrote:
NIN wrote:
DelPen wrote:NIN, the Sabres are deep enough that shuffing the lines gives a new look that's tough to defend. The same can't be said about the Pens. And the Lightning, Sens and Canes don't have a defensemen even close to Pronger or Nieds let alone two. It might have made sense that one game but now it's simply baffling that he hasn't gone back to those lines from a week ago.


The argument that you should be more talented to be able to shuffle lines is not a good one. Trully dominating teams keep their lines intact because they are affective each and every night. Teams that are struggling to score goals need to shake things up, every team in the league does it these days. The more talented the team the LESS they shuffle, not the more.

It's true that the Pens need a scoring winger and maybe an offensive righty shot from the point (good luck finding that).


But I fail to see a logical argument against going back to:

Malkin-Crosby-Army
Ekman-Staal-Rex
Leclair-Moore-Ouellet
Thornburn-Talbot-Ruutu

They worked fine and faced a little adversity against two of the best teams in the NHL. If there's a good reason why those shouldn't be the 4 lines I'd love to hear it.


Agree, 100%...go back to what gave you the success. The only shuffling I would do from there is splitting up Malkin and Crosby if the situation would dictate it. Malkin + Sid would be for the tougher teams when scoring chances would be low.
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Postby Maestro on Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:51 pm

I'm glad we got the cheap seats for this game. Coolest thing at the RBC are the young woman dancing in a railed sqaure concrete area in each corner of the rink. Nice.
Refs were horrible... T-blow was a joke in the 3rd with 2 soft goals. RBC never showed a replay of the Pens possible 3rd goal.

God, I hope thye win sometime this month.
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