Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

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Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby CT Mechanic on Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:57 pm

What's the latest word on the Coyotes? Their new owner is going to be Matthew Hulsizer, right? Is he committed to keeping them in Phoenix? Is keeping them in Phoenix a part of the deal, or is he free to consider his options?

Why didn't the NHL let the team be sold to Jim Basille so he could move them to Hamilton Ontario?

Thanks for any updates, links, articles...

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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby K2 on Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:02 pm

With iPhone and Droid dominating the phone market, it appears Blackberry's time in the sun may be coming to an end. Thus, Balsillie may not be a viable owner in the NHL's eyes
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:00 pm

Pro sports franchises are fleeing Hamilton for greener pastures:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/912 ... burlington
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Fast B on Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:40 pm

K2 wrote:With iPhone and Droid dominating the phone market, it appears Blackberry's time in the sun may be coming to an end. Thus, Balsillie may not be a viable owner in the NHL's eyes


That, and he's a d-bag.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby RJW76 on Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:58 am

Draftnik wrote:Pro sports franchises are fleeing Hamilton for greener pastures:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/912 ... burlington


I'm shocked they still have the Pan Am games.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:31 am

Draftnik wrote:Pro sports franchises are fleeing Hamilton for greener pastures:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/912 ... burlington

http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/New ... ID=1336563

They're just "posturing for leverage" (lol). The pasture isn't greener; Bob Young wants our money for a stadium, while at the same time gives us no say in the stadium location. He also spoke up much too late in the game against the proposed stadium location, after being quoted as saying that he'd support which ever location city council chose.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:33 am

CT Mechanic wrote:Why didn't the NHL let the team be sold to Jim Basille so he could move them to Hamilton Ontario?

Because the Leafs are worried about their monopoly on the area, and the NHL is worried about the viability of the Buffalo Sabres if they lose this market.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Bob Cole's Senility on Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:57 am

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
CT Mechanic wrote:Why didn't the NHL let the team be sold to Jim Basille so he could move them to Hamilton Ontario?

Because the Leafs are worried about their monopoly on the area, and the NHL is worried about the viability of the Buffalo Sabres if they lose this market.


The NHL should be worrying about the viability of the Buffalo Sabres period.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby DelPen on Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:57 pm

K2 wrote:With iPhone and Droid dominating the phone market, it appears Blackberry's time in the sun may be coming to an end. Thus, Balsillie may not be a viable owner in the NHL's eyes


Even though that is true RIM still had record profits this past year and should have plenty of cash on hand to run the team.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:15 pm

K2 wrote:With iPhone and Droid dominating the phone market, it appears Blackberry's time in the sun may be coming to an end. Thus, Balsillie may not be a viable owner in the NHL's eyes

Lol, but Del Biaggio, John Rigas, John Spano, Dennis Kozlowski, and Greg Reyes are all good, right?
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:49 pm

Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:Pro sports franchises are fleeing Hamilton for greener pastures:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/912 ... burlington

http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/New ... ID=1336563

They're just "posturing for leverage" (lol). The pasture isn't greener; Bob Young wants our money for a stadium, while at the same time gives us no say in the stadium location. He also spoke up much too late in the game against the proposed stadium location, after being quoted as saying that he'd support which ever location city council chose.


I was making a joke.

I could have posted a serious answer about how Balsillie wouldn't agree to keep the Pens in PGH & the Preds in NAS, how he started to sell season tix for the Preds to play in Hamilton, how he cut a deal with Moyes to try and move the Yotes without following NHL bylaws, how the TML & Sabres would claim territorial infringement, etc ... but it seemed silly to respond to the notion that the NHL would actually allow Jim Balsillie into their league. It would be akin to the NFL allowing Al Davis into their league knowing that Davis would sue them. Plus Balsillie is old news. The bankruptcy judge killed his bid to buy the Yotes more than a year ago and the legal precedent the case set re: NHL being allowed to control franchise location, even in the event of bankruptcy, probably eliminated the only loophole Balsillie had to get an NHL franchise without BOG approval.

Bettman actually got Glendale to give Hulsizer $197M to buy the Yotes. Its quite a feather in Bettman's cap because the NHL will get most of that $$$ as a franchise fee so Bettman will deliver the sale price he promised NHL owners when the league assumed control of the Yotes and subsidized their operating losses last season. Glendale is subsidizing the Yotes losses up to $25M this season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=5921462
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:58 pm

What Draftnik said.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:44 pm

Draftnik wrote:
Physical_Graffiti wrote:
Draftnik wrote:Pro sports franchises are fleeing Hamilton for greener pastures:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/912 ... burlington

http://www.900chml.com/Channels/Reg/New ... ID=1336563

They're just "posturing for leverage" (lol). The pasture isn't greener; Bob Young wants our money for a stadium, while at the same time gives us no say in the stadium location. He also spoke up much too late in the game against the proposed stadium location, after being quoted as saying that he'd support which ever location city council chose.


I was making a joke.

I could have posted a serious answer about how Balsillie wouldn't agree to keep the Pens in PGH & the Preds in NAS, how he started to sell season tix for the Preds to play in Hamilton, how he cut a deal with Moyes to try and move the Yotes without following NHL bylaws, how the TML & Sabres would claim territorial infringement, etc ... but it seemed silly to respond to the notion that the NHL would actually allow Jim Balsillie into their league. It would be akin to the NFL allowing Al Davis into their league knowing that Davis would sue them. Plus Balsillie is old news. The bankruptcy judge killed his bid to buy the Yotes more than a year ago and the legal precedent the case set re: NHL being allowed to control franchise location, even in the event of bankruptcy, probably eliminated the only loophole Balsillie had to get an NHL franchise without BOG approval.

Bettman actually got Glendale to give Hulsizer $197M to buy the Yotes. Its quite a feather in Bettman's cap because the NHL will get most of that $$$ as a franchise fee so Bettman will deliver the sale price he promised NHL owners when the league assumed control of the Yotes and subsidized their operating losses last season. Glendale is subsidizing the Yotes losses up to $25M this season.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=5921462

That has yet to be proven.

Yay, let's keep a franchise in a city that clearly doesn't watch hockey :face: . I don't understand the logic that says Bettman "won". The team is losing money and will continue to lose money. It just seems like dumb logic to me to assume that things will change for the better.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Draftnik on Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:35 am

Hulsizer is going to get a sweetheart deal. Glendale will finance his purchase so he won't have any acquisition cost. He will subsidize operational losses, but his plan is to make $$$ when he sells the franchise down the road. I doubt his business plan shows operational losses of $25+ per year. Moyes was borrowing $$$ from Dell's hedge fund at usurious rates. The Yotes operational losses weren't the bulk of Moyes' losses.

Look at BUF. Golisano bought them out of bankruptcy. He's lost $$$, but he will recoup his operational losses and turn a profit when he sells the team to Pegula for ~ $175M.

Balsillie is a non starter for the NHL. He refused to comply with the Pens term sheet, he took STH deposits on Preds tix in Hamilton, he sued the NHL for the Yotes... The NHL is partnership of 30 ownership groups. They compete on the ice, but as businesses they are partners. They aren't going to admit a "partner" that won't follow their rules. A 2nd team in the GTA would be very lucrative for the NHL. I don't have to sit in BOG meetings to know that when the NHL does put a 2nd team into the GTA, it will be an expansion franchise for a monster fee north of $250M. That way, all the 30 franchises will get a taste of the expansion fee. There will be some indemnification concessions to BUF & TML. LAK received half the expansion fee for ANA. The Baltimore Orioles control the TV deal via MASN for the Washington Nationals. Partners strike deals amicably to resolve these type of issues. The NHL isn't going to admit somebody that will challenge indemnification via the courts.

I'm not anti-Canada but these type of threads are incredibly short sighted. Nobody remembers the NHL's currency equalization program. EDM & CGY were struggling for STH in the late 90s. They had to run community campaigns to get people to come to games. EDM had to cobble 30 guys together to buy the team. OTT were bankrupt. The Molson's sold MON to an American that performed a leveraged buyout because no Canadian citizen would step forward and buy the Habs because they were a risky proposition. TML are a cash cow and VAN has also done well. Canadian teams will do well as long as the price of oil is relatively high. That has driven the Canadian $ to parity with the American $. If the price of oil drops, the value of the CDN $ will plummet and so will the profitability of CDN franchises.

Nobody would dispute that Canada at a macro level likes hockey much more than the US, but...There aren't enough large metro areas in Canada to support a 30 team league. Also, as the NHL becomes more dependent on corporate revenue (luxury suites, premium seats, sponsorships) instead of fan ticket revenue, the lack of large CDN corporations compared to the plethora of large US corporations makes Canada less viable for the evolving model of how professional sports franchises make $$$.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby thepittman on Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:56 am

I really believe baltimore could support a team. Would make for some great local rivalries.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:44 am

Draftnik wrote:Hulsizer is going to get a sweetheart deal. Glendale will finance his purchase so he won't have any acquisition cost. He will subsidize operational losses, but his plan is to make $$$ when he sells the franchise down the road. I doubt his business plan shows operational losses of $25+ per year. Moyes was borrowing $$$ from Dell's hedge fund at usurious rates. The Yotes operational losses weren't the bulk of Moyes' losses.

Look at BUF. Golisano bought them out of bankruptcy. He's lost $$$, but he will recoup his operational losses and turn a profit when he sells the team to Pegula for ~ $175M.

Balsillie is a non starter for the NHL. He refused to comply with the Pens term sheet, he took STH deposits on Preds tix in Hamilton, he sued the NHL for the Yotes... The NHL is partnership of 30 ownership groups. They compete on the ice, but as businesses they are partners. They aren't going to admit a "partner" that won't follow their rules. A 2nd team in the GTA would be very lucrative for the NHL. I don't have to sit in BOG meetings to know that when the NHL does put a 2nd team into the GTA, it will be an expansion franchise for a monster fee north of $250M. That way, all the 30 franchises will get a taste of the expansion fee. There will be some indemnification concessions to BUF & TML. LAK received half the expansion fee for ANA. The Baltimore Orioles control the TV deal via MASN for the Washington Nationals. Partners strike deals amicably to resolve these type of issues. The NHL isn't going to admit somebody that will challenge indemnification via the courts.

I'm not anti-Canada but these type of threads are incredibly short sighted. Nobody remembers the NHL's currency equalization program. EDM & CGY were struggling for STH in the late 90s. They had to run community campaigns to get people to come to games. EDM had to cobble 30 guys together to buy the team. OTT were bankrupt. The Molson's sold MON to an American that performed a leveraged buyout because no Canadian citizen would step forward and buy the Habs because they were a risky proposition. TML are a cash cow and VAN has also done well. Canadian teams will do well as long as the price of oil is relatively high. That has driven the Canadian $ to parity with the American $. If the price of oil drops, the value of the CDN $ will plummet and so will the profitability of CDN franchises.

Nobody would dispute that Canada at a macro level likes hockey much more than the US, but...There aren't enough large metro areas in Canada to support a 30 team league. Also, as the NHL becomes more dependent on corporate revenue (luxury suites, premium seats, sponsorships) instead of fan ticket revenue, the lack of large CDN corporations compared to the plethora of large US corporations makes Canada less viable for the evolving model of how professional sports franchises make $$$.

Do you really see the price of oil dropping at all in the future? It's only going to get more expensive.

I feel as though we could certainly support 9 teams (Winnipeg, QC, and Hamilton) , with the possiblity of a tenth.

I just don't see how it can be good for a league to have 9,000 people at an arena, when you could easily have 19,000 in a another area.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby bhaw on Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:15 am

Do you really not understand, in the grand scheme of things, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful hockey team in Hamilton = marginal
Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful team in Phoenix = several million

And, again, where is the proof that 9-10 teams could be supported in Canada? There's a reason teams had to leave...

Teams like ATL and PHX have not had a team to get behind in a LONG time. A market like Pittsburgh fails when the team sucks for lengths of time. Let them be successful before you start complaining that no one wants to support them. I doubt the attendance would be great in QC or Hamilton if the team absolute sucked for the better part of 10 years. Fans don't support losers.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby RJW76 on Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:03 pm

bhaw wrote:Do you really not understand, in the grand scheme of things, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful hockey team in Hamilton = marginal
Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful team in Phoenix = several million

And, again, where is the proof that 9-10 teams could be supported in Canada? There's a reason teams had to leave...

Teams like ATL and PHX have not had a team to get behind in a LONG time. A market like Pittsburgh fails when the team sucks for lengths of time. Let them be successful before you start complaining that no one wants to support them. I doubt the attendance would be great in QC or Hamilton if the team absolute sucked for the better part of 10 years. Fans don't support losers.


I can't blame PG for going with his heart on this one. He lives in this area and wants a team there. Nothing wrong with that. The league obviously (and rightly IMO) sees it differently.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Zach6668 on Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:56 pm

bhaw wrote:Do you really not understand, in the grand scheme of things, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful hockey team in Hamilton = marginal
Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful team in Phoenix = several million

And, again, where is the proof that 9-10 teams could be supported in Canada? There's a reason teams had to leave...

Teams like ATL and PHX have not had a team to get behind in a LONG time. A market like Pittsburgh fails when the team sucks for lengths of time. Let them be successful before you start complaining that no one wants to support them. I doubt the attendance would be great in QC or Hamilton if the team absolute sucked for the better part of 10 years. Fans don't support losers.


Finally! Great post.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:43 pm

DelPen wrote:
K2 wrote:With iPhone and Droid dominating the phone market, it appears Blackberry's time in the sun may be coming to an end. Thus, Balsillie may not be a viable owner in the NHL's eyes


Even though that is true RIM still had record profits this past year and should have plenty of cash on hand to run the team.

http://www.google.com/finance?q=TSE:RIM&fstype=ii

EBIT margins are more than $1bil/quarter. If anything, these Android & iphones have made smartphones more popular and the technology less expensive, and as a result RIM sales are up 34% compared to Q3 of last year.

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1466313
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:54 pm

bhaw wrote:Do you really not understand, in the grand scheme of things, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful hockey team in Hamilton = marginal
Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful team in Phoenix = several million

And, again, where is the proof that 9-10 teams could be supported in Canada? There's a reason teams had to leave...

Teams like ATL and PHX have not had a team to get behind in a LONG time. A market like Pittsburgh fails when the team sucks for lengths of time. Let them be successful before you start complaining that no one wants to support them. I doubt the attendance would be great in QC or Hamilton if the team absolute sucked for the better part of 10 years. Fans don't support losers.


I totally agree, but for this argument to work there has to be growth in attendance. Unfortunately, attendance is going the wrong way:
Image

Phoenix finished 4th in the West last year and are competitive again this year to get a playoff spot, and the average attendance at their games has again this year. At this point, the potential needs to start paying.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby bhaw on Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:46 pm

Pitt87 wrote:
bhaw wrote:Do you really not understand, in the grand scheme of things, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful hockey team in Hamilton = marginal
Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful team in Phoenix = several million

And, again, where is the proof that 9-10 teams could be supported in Canada? There's a reason teams had to leave...

Teams like ATL and PHX have not had a team to get behind in a LONG time. A market like Pittsburgh fails when the team sucks for lengths of time. Let them be successful before you start complaining that no one wants to support them. I doubt the attendance would be great in QC or Hamilton if the team absolute sucked for the better part of 10 years. Fans don't support losers.


I totally agree, but for this argument to work there has to be growth in attendance. Unfortunately, attendance is going the wrong way:
Image

Phoenix finished 4th in the West last year and are competitive again this year to get a playoff spot, and the average attendance at their games has again this year. At this point, the potential needs to start paying.


You do realize that they have not been allowed to market at all since the NHL took over, right? They turned over their entire ticket office and, due to the ownership issue, have absolutely zero advertising/marketing efforts in the community right now.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby bhaw on Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:48 pm

Also, while there isn't a huge different, that number has increased since the first 13 games.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:49 pm

bhaw wrote:Do you really not understand, in the grand scheme of things, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful hockey team in Hamilton = marginal
Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful team in Phoenix = several million


And, again, where is the proof that 9-10 teams could be supported in Canada? There's a reason teams had to leave...

Teams like ATL and PHX have not had a team to get behind in a LONG time. A market like Pittsburgh fails when the team sucks for lengths of time. Let them be successful before you start complaining that no one wants to support them. I doubt the attendance would be great in QC or Hamilton if the team absolute sucked for the better part of 10 years. Fans don't support losers.

Wth is with this argument: Cool, you attracted one new fan to hockey. That doesn't change the fact that your arena currently has 2 people in it. You're trying to tell me thatr instead of having an arena with 18,000 fans in it, each paying 100 bucks a ticket, with 9,000 of those people wearing jerseys, you'd rather have 9,000 fans at 25 bucks a piece and 100 jerseys on? In what world is that better? Why is the NHL so worried about "growing the game" when they don't even have a steady leg to stand on yet?

Part of the reason teams had to leave was that the dollar was low. Do you really expect it to be that low again, taking into account the consistantly rising price of oil?

Toronto, which is right next door to Hamilton, disagrees with you. Fans in this area do in fact support losers (their team still charges 250 a piece for good seats and they haven't made the playoffs since before the lockout) . And don't try to tell me it's just because it's the Buds. It's because it's an NHL team.
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Re: Phoenix Coyotes staying in Phoenix?

Postby Physical_Graffiti on Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:53 pm

bhaw wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
bhaw wrote:Do you really not understand, in the grand scheme of things, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful hockey team in Hamilton = marginal
Number of potential new hockey fans with a successful team in Phoenix = several million

And, again, where is the proof that 9-10 teams could be supported in Canada? There's a reason teams had to leave...

Teams like ATL and PHX have not had a team to get behind in a LONG time. A market like Pittsburgh fails when the team sucks for lengths of time. Let them be successful before you start complaining that no one wants to support them. I doubt the attendance would be great in QC or Hamilton if the team absolute sucked for the better part of 10 years. Fans don't support losers.


I totally agree, but for this argument to work there has to be growth in attendance. Unfortunately, attendance is going the wrong way:
Image

Phoenix finished 4th in the West last year and are competitive again this year to get a playoff spot, and the average attendance at their games has again this year. At this point, the potential needs to start paying.


You do realize that they have not been allowed to market at all since the NHL took over, right? They turned over their entire ticket office and, due to the ownership issue, have absolutely zero advertising/marketing efforts in the community right now.

You're a professional sports team who is doing well in the standings, you shouldn't really need to market yourself. The media does that for you.
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