LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

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LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:07 am

The creation of this thread may be a bit indulgent on my part, but I think its about time for it. :thumb:

If during the life of this thread it becomes too much like Political Discussion Thread 2.0, the mods can just merge it there, but it would be my hope that that does not happen. Certainly, political philosophy will be one of the topics that will inevitably come up if this thread ends up taking off a little bit, but, political philosophy is not really politics. There should be enough non-politics discussion that this thread is deserving of a life of its on.

So, this thread will be meant to discuss all kinds of philosophical issues.

Been dreaming about discussing metaphysics or epistemology on LGP? Finally, you can have your release.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:07 am

I thought I'd try to kick of some discussion with the good old Ship of Theseus.

The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned [from Crete] had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.


Imagine a wooden ship in a warehouse. I'm going to try out this whole egotism thing for once (yeah, right) and call this ship the SS Kraftster. So, I've got a great boat guy I know who I have come down to the warehouse and take a look at my boat. He tells me that he sees two planks that need replaced right away, and that eventually he's probably going to have to do every dang board.

So, the following week, the boat guy comes down and replaces two of the planks on my boat. I ask you, is the boat still the same boat that it was before? Is it still the SS Kraftster?

A year goes by and my boat guy says, 75% of the planks on that boat need replaced. I hire him to do the work, and he does it. Now having replaced 75% of the planks (+2), is the boat still the same boat it was before? Is it still the SS Kraftster?

Finally, last week, the boat guy replaced all of the remaining planks on the boat, so that it is now all new wood. Is it still the Kraftster?

What I just found out, though, is that my boat guy has been taking all of the planks that he removed from my boat, and he's been storing them in a different warehouse. Once he finished all of the work, he put all of the decaying planks back together in the other warehouse in exactly the way they were on my boat. Is this seaworthy vessel in the other warehouse my SS Kraftster?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:08 am

In before "why does it matter/what is the point" :)
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Guinness on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:09 am

Kraftster wrote:In before "why does it matter/what is the point" doublem :)


;)
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Point Breeze Penguins on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:10 am

I would say the boat is the same. A boat in this case is more than its parts. The idea of the boat remains the same regardless if the substance has changed.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:11 am

I'd say the SS Kraftster is the whole sum of the parts together, including its location, owner etc. The newly constructed boat made by your con man "boat guy" is a new sum of its parts.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:16 am

my dad once said the two best days of your life are the day you buy your boat and the day you sell your boat
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:18 am

you would have been perfectly content calling your new ship the SS kraftster if you had never found this guys warehouse. why should that change anything. it is still your boat, you may call it what you want.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby columbia on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:07 am

I'm confused.
Are these boat references actually code language for cell phones?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Benny Fitz on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:09 am

I never liked this exercise. It always gives me fits. I feel like I'm constantly changing my answer. But nevertheless, I guess I'll jump in with this...First thing I think you need to do is strip away the labels. The term "SS-Kfraftster" is representative of just that, a label. This "thing" is what ever it is before anyone comes and calls it a boat, yacht, SS-K, etc. So at it's core essence, is it not the same thing if a few pieces are replaced?

You have a car. Once you change the oil is it diff? Or the tires? But what about if you change the engine?

How does this apply to the living? Birds malt, dogs and cats shed, snake skin, etc?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby AlexPKeaton on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:11 am

What is best in life?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Gaucho on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:21 am

Point Breeze Penguins wrote:I would say the boat is the same. A boat in this case is more than its parts. The idea of the boat remains the same regardless if the substance has changed.


Fine, that is one way of looking at it. But what if Kraftster sells the boat and its new owner renames it the SS Columbia. Is it still the same boat? What if the SS Kraftster gets a new paintjob? What if there are woodworms in the plank? All things, be they living or inanimate, are in a state of constant change or flux. The PBP that wakes up in the morning is not the same as the PBP that went to bed the night before. That's another way of looking at it.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby columbia on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:23 am

Gaucho wrote:But what if Kraftster sells the boat and its new owner renames it the SS Columbia.


He'd have to pay me big money to take over that broken down barnacle barge.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Gaucho on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:27 am

Benny Fitz wrote:The term "SS-Kfraftster" is representative of just that, a label.


Exactly. We need labels for, well, the sake of convenience.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Benny Fitz on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:29 am

Gaucho wrote:
Point Breeze Penguins wrote:I would say the boat is the same. A boat in this case is more than its parts. The idea of the boat remains the same regardless if the substance has changed.


Fine, that is one way of looking at it. But what if Kraftster sells the boat and its new owner renames it the SS Columbia. Is it still the same boat? What if the SS Kraftster gets a new paintjob? What if there are woodworms in the plank? All things, be they living or inanimate, are in a state of constant change or flux. The PBP that wakes up in the morning is not the same as the PBP that went to bed the night before. That's another way of looking at it.


I think both quotes address the subjectivity of the label. i.e.. A house is not necessarily a home. If you look at it that way, then paint job or not, worms or termites, that's still MY boat.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Benny Fitz on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:30 am

Gaucho wrote:
Benny Fitz wrote:The term "SS-Kfraftster" is representative of just that, a label.


Exactly. We need labels for, well, the sake of convenience.


I think convenience is exactly the right word.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:35 am

Of course the day I start this thread my morning blows up.

I like this discussion between Benny and Gaucho. So, do "things" have identity independent of the labels that we use? If so, what is the central feature of that identity?

If I change out 98% of the boards and one argues that maintains its identity (whatever label you want to use), then what is it about the thing to begin with that gives it its identity? If the new SS-K in the new warehouse does not have the same identity as the boat that used to be in my warehouse identity relates to something rather abstract, no?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Gaucho on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:40 am

Kraftster wrote:If the new SS-K in the new warehouse does not have the same identity as the boat that used to be in my warehouse identity relates to something rather abstract, no?


Absolutely.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:45 am

Gaucho wrote:
Kraftster wrote:If the new SS-K in the new warehouse does not have the same identity as the boat that used to be in my warehouse identity relates to something rather abstract, no?


Absolutely.


So do "things" have identity outside of the labels we assign to them?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby pittsports87 on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:51 am

Sociology > Philosophy
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Benny Fitz on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:55 am

pittsports87 wrote:Sociology > Philosophy


but would you have sociology without philosophy?
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Kraftster on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:00 pm

Yesterday's moral philosophy becomes tomorrow's jurisprudence or welfare economic; yesterday's philosophy of mind becomes tomorrow's cognitive science.

what what
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:02 pm

Kraftster wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
Kraftster wrote:If the new SS-K in the new warehouse does not have the same identity as the boat that used to be in my warehouse identity relates to something rather abstract, no?


Absolutely.


So do "things" have identity outside of the labels we assign to them?


what is an identity? i have a lapel pin sitting in front of me. i know its a lapel pin because thats what ive been told. if someone told me it was a cell phone when i was little and everyone called it that it would be a cell phone but it would still serve the same purpose. like someone mentioned the naming conventions we use are out of convenience to make communication, business, life easier
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby MWB on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:07 pm

columbia wrote:I'm confused.
Are these boat references actually code language for cell phones?


:lol: Well played.
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Re: LGP Philosophy Discussion Thread

Postby no name on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:28 pm

As long as you still have the Bell its your boat.
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