Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:44 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/opini ... .html?_r=4

Interesting article. I won't pass judgment, and I should probably stay out after I post this. The article is clearly written with a slant, which is fine - in my opinion. A horrible situation, period.

Yet the questions remain: Why did Zimmerman find Trayvon suspicious? Why did he pursue the boy when the 911 operator instructed him not to? Why did he get out of the car, and why did he take his gun when he did? How is it self-defense when you are the one in pursuit? Who initiated the altercation? Who cried for help? Did Trayvon’s body show evidence of a struggle? What moved Zimmerman to use lethal force?


Edit: For the record, I am not suggesting that the police officer shot the youth because he was black. I think the author's point is what could have made the youth look suspicious other than the fact that he was black and why did he engage in a situation that led to a death.
TheHammer24
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,007
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:28 pm

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:51 pm

I'm not trying to be flippant, but what kind of "racial questions" does this raise up? We know the victim (alleged) was black and the shooter (Zimmerman) was white. Has Zimmerman stated anything other than the fact he thought there was someone suspicious? I agree 100% that it appears he was grossly negligent and should be punished accordingly. I just don't understand the "reignites racial questions" thing.

I'm just going to wait for more information to come out. But I already see the usual hucksters are headed for their bullhorns.
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 55,521
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:51 pm

Am I reading this wrong? it says that Zimmerman was a Neighborhood Watch Volunteer.
Troy Loney
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,688
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:10 am
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:53 pm

Troy Loney wrote:Am I reading this wrong? it says that Zimmerman was a Neighborhood Watch Volunteer.


lol, this. He's a local neighborhood watch captain, not a police officer. So at worst, this is a case of some white guy thinking a black kid was acting suspicious. As it appears, he confronted him against police wishes, the kid may have fought back, kid gets shot. Still horrible, but...at worst, this is one incident of black on white crime.

I would love to know where all the people were asking "racial questions" and raising protests during the rampant, ongoing series of documented black-on-white crimes in the Philadelphia area. Or the white guy that got beaten to death in Old City as a pack of black youths screamed racial slurs at him last year.

I know I am digressing horribly, but it just irritates me.
Last edited by shafnutz05 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 55,521
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:55 pm

please log in
Kaizer
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,298
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:02 am
Location: Crazy Town

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:55 pm

911 tape shows George Zimmerman lamenting that the “a--holes always get away.”
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/2 ... rylink=cpy
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 45,510
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:58 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:Am I reading this wrong? it says that Zimmerman was a Neighborhood Watch Volunteer.


lol, this. He's a local neighborhood watch captain, not a police officer. So at worst, this is a case of some white guy thinking a black kid was acting suspicious. As it appears, he confronted him against police wishes, the kid may have fought back, kid gets shot. Still horrible, but...at worst, this is one incident of black on white crime.

I would love to know where all the people were asking "racial questions" and raising protests during the rampant, ongoing series of documented black-on-white crimes in the Philadelphia area. Or the white guy that got beaten to death in Old City as a pack of black youths screamed racial slurs at him last year.

I know I am digressing horribly, but it just irritates me.



He's Latino too. But anyway, it looks like this Zimmerman guy is a nutcase and should be charged with murder.
Troy Loney
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,688
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:10 am
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:01 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:I'm not trying to be flippant, but what kind of "racial questions" does this raise up? We know the victim (alleged) was black and the shooter (Zimmerman) was white. Has Zimmerman stated anything other than the fact he thought there was someone suspicious? I agree 100% that it appears he was grossly negligent and should be punished accordingly. I just don't understand the "reignites racial questions" thing.

I'm just going to wait for more information to come out. But I already see the usual hucksters are headed for their bullhorns.

The implication is that a black youth in a white neighborhood is, by definition, suspicious [edit: to a large enough group of individuals as to create a significant disadvantage to a large portion of the population, creating additional issues that damage society greatly]. Perhaps the headline is too strong, but it's quite bizarre.

Shaf, I also don't think any of the "hucksters" are going to defend black on white violence. Indeed, the racial questions implicit in this article are exacerbated by the black-on-white violence.
Last edited by TheHammer24 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TheHammer24
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,007
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:28 pm

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:01 pm

Troy Loney wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:Am I reading this wrong? it says that Zimmerman was a Neighborhood Watch Volunteer.


lol, this. He's a local neighborhood watch captain, not a police officer. So at worst, this is a case of some white guy thinking a black kid was acting suspicious. As it appears, he confronted him against police wishes, the kid may have fought back, kid gets shot. Still horrible, but...at worst, this is one incident of black on white crime.

I would love to know where all the people were asking "racial questions" and raising protests during the rampant, ongoing series of documented black-on-white crimes in the Philadelphia area. Or the white guy that got beaten to death in Old City as a pack of black youths screamed racial slurs at him last year.

I know I am digressing horribly, but it just irritates me.



He's Latino too. But anyway, it looks like this Zimmerman guy is a nutcase and should be charged with murder.

Yeah - at least 2nd Degree murder.
TheHammer24
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,007
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:28 pm

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Rylan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:01 pm

Racism is stupid.
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,001
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:03 pm

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think the Zimmerman guy is your garden-variety nutcase and should be charged with murder in all likelihood. It just annoys me that the black-on-white crime goes on constantly in Philly (and I'm sure other cities), and it's an "aw shucks" thing. One white idiot shoots a black kid, and you now have college protests, hucksters, and the national media picking up the "sensational" story. It nauseates me.

Sorry to go off on a tangent. Didn't realize the guy was Latino Troy. Latinos and blacks don't get along very well a lot of times.
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 55,521
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:04 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:I'm not trying to be flippant, but what kind of "racial questions" does this raise up? We know the victim (alleged) was black and the shooter (Zimmerman) was white. Has Zimmerman stated anything other than the fact he thought there was someone suspicious? I agree 100% that it appears he was grossly negligent and should be punished accordingly. I just don't understand the "reignites racial questions" thing.

I'm just going to wait for more information to come out. But I already see the usual hucksters are headed for their bullhorns.



Plus the issue isn't really this white on black violence, or black on white violence. It's police officers who are supposed to be protecting the populace being violent and abusing their power.
Troy Loney
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 26,688
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:10 am
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:05 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I definitely think the Zimmerman guy is your garden-variety nutcase and should be charged with murder in all likelihood. It just annoys me that the black-on-white crime goes on constantly in Philly (and I'm sure other cities), and it's an "aw shucks" thing. One white idiot shoots a black kid, and you now have college protests, hucksters, and the national media picking up the "sensational" story. It nauseates me.

Sorry to go off on a tangent. Didn't realize the guy was Latino Troy. Latinos and blacks don't get along very well a lot of times.

It's a very valid point, as I believe they're both indicative of a huge problem.
TheHammer24
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,007
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:28 pm

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:05 pm

Community watch is like the equivalent of ROTC to the Green Berets
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 55,521
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Rylan on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:06 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I definitely think the Zimmerman guy is your garden-variety nutcase and should be charged with murder in all likelihood. It just annoys me that the black-on-white crime goes on constantly in Philly (and I'm sure other cities), and it's an "aw shucks" thing. One white idiot shoots a black kid, and you now have college protests, hucksters, and the national media picking up the "sensational" story. It nauseates me.

Sorry to go off on a tangent. Didn't realize the guy was Latino Troy. Latinos and blacks don't get along very well a lot of times.


Look above this post.

Ah hell I will just repost it anyways.

Racism is stupid.
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,001
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby mac5155 on Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:46 pm

Yes this guy was not a police officer. He was some self proclaimed vigilante.
mac5155
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 47,279
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:06 pm
Location: governor of Fayettenam

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:23 pm

This case sounds like a modern lynching. We have no idea what actually happened that night, and so far as I’ve heard, there were no actual witnesses to the shooting (multiple people heard it, but nobody saw it). The one party who was there (Zimmerman) claims it was self defense. What evidence is there to rebut that assertion? And online petitions and Al Sharpton rallies don’t count as evidence.

The state has a significant burden here. Florida (like Pennsylvania now as well) is a Castle Doctrine state. Under their version, a person who is anywhere he or she is legally entitled to be “has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.” If, say, Trayvon did attack Zimmerman, and Zimmerman believed he was facing death or great bodily harm, then he had the right to open fire.

Also, many people have been asking why Zimmerman hasn’t been arrested for something. Under the Florida Castle Doctrine “a person who uses force as permitted [by the statute] is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force [unless it was against a police officer].” Further, “the term ‘criminal prosecution’ includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.” The only way you can arrest someone is if a law-enforcement agency determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful. So unless the police can come up with probable cause that Zimmerman’s use of force was not in lawful self defense under the Castle Doctrine (hard to do with no witnesses to the shooting), they can’t arrest him.
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,047
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Pavel Bure on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:27 pm

Can the title be changed because this wasn't a police shooting.
Pavel Bure
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,189
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:15 pm
Location: http://freebitco.in/?r=289635 get bitcoins

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby pfim on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:29 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Community watch is like the equivalent of ROTC to the Green Berets


What kind of neighborhood does someone live in, where they think it's a good idea for one of the residents to walk around with a pistol, patrolling the neighborhood? I can't express in words how dumb that is.
pfim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,785
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:35 am
Location: Sitting in front of my computer

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby newarenanow on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:38 pm

Can't read the article, but I saw this on the news this weekend.

Said the neighborhood watch man followed the kid against the wishes of the 911 dispatcher and she said police were on the way.

They played another 911 tape from a lady in the neighborhood who said a man with a gun was holding up a kid. You hear the lady saying the kid is yelling HELP! and then a shot rang out, and the lady gets all hysterical saying a guy just shot the kid dead. The kid was unarmed.

I think the whole racial thing coming in is the cops not arresting this guy.
newarenanow
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,147
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:44 pm

The neighborhood in question is a gated community. Trayvon Martin was a guest of one of the residents.
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,047
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby newarenanow on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:51 pm

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/91 ... ?hpt=hp_c1

Here is a transcript of the 911 calls.
newarenanow
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,147
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 pm

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Sarcastic on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:52 pm

Troy Loney wrote:
But anyway, it looks like this Zimmerman guy is a nutcase and should be charged with murder.


That's how I'm seeing it with what I know so far. Seems like he caused the entire incident and now claims self defense? If he really suspected something (the kid was just walking home after buying some candy --- what I read earlier today.. didn't read OP's link), he should have watched him and waited for the police. I think he probably got himself a shiny new gun and wanted to play John Wayne for a day. Now the kid is dead and his parents are heart-broken.
Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,286
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:49 pm

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby roland on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:12 pm

Shyster wrote:The neighborhood in question is a gated community. Trayvon Martin was a guest of one of the residents.


Interesting, I missed the "guest of a resident" part the first time around. I was wondering what the kid was doing in a "gated community" and since Zimmerman was part of the Neighborhood Watch, which was on the look out for black juveniles involved in criminal activity in their neighborhood, he's right to be suspicious if he spotted "an outsider" of the gated community. But, he should have left it at "watch and report." No need to follow, confront, scuffle with, and shoot the kid. (who knows how the whole thing played out)

I'm sure it's frustrating when crime keeps happening and the police are always a couple of minutes late to respond which results in no arrests, but he should've thought this one through.

That being said, the outcry of "hate crime" is a bit much. I see it more as an unfortunate incident where Zimmerman should face some kind of consequences/charges for his foolish act.
roland
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:08 pm

Re: Police Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby NeddieVedder on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:27 pm

roland wrote:foolish act.


It is rather foolish to murder someone.
NeddieVedder
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:35 am

Next

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

e-mail