2005, good draft for the pens.

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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby pekkasteele on Tue May 08, 2012 5:13 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
pekkasteele wrote:I was looking up the drafts and noticed, 2005 was a good year for us, we drafted 3 players currently on the HNL roster, and traded for 2 more.

We didn't draft two of those players.


;)
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Staggy on Tue May 08, 2012 6:37 pm

While Detroit does have a great scouting team, luck played a huge factor in the Datsyuk and Zetterberg selections. If they knew they were both going to be world class two way players, they don't take any chance on letting them sit on the board for 6 rounds or whatever it was. They probably identified them as raw but skilled players with good upside but they would take a lot of work to develop. That's part good scouting, part finding the two needles in the haystack which requires a great deal of luck.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Hockeynut! on Tue May 08, 2012 6:45 pm

I posted this about a year ago:

If Detroit had any ideas Zetterberg was going to be an impact player - or even an NHL regular - they would have picked him ahead of Jari Tolsa who they took at 120, Andrei Maximenko who they took at 149 and Kent McDonell who they took at 180. They get way too much credit for selecting him. He was simply a player who far exceeded everyone's expectations and Det was the lucky team who ended up with him.

The Datsyuk pick is even more of a joke. The Wings drafted Jiri Fischer, Ryan Barnes, Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken, Brent Hobday, Calle Steen and Adam Deleeuw a ahead of him. 7 crappy plays ahead of Datsyuk, but they still get lauded as "amazing talent scouts".
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby pens#1 on Tue May 08, 2012 6:50 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:I posted this about a year ago:

If Detroit had any ideas Zetterberg was going to be an impact player - or even an NHL regular - they would have picked him ahead of Jari Tolsa who they took at 120, Andrei Maximenko who they took at 149 and Kent McDonell who they took at 180. They get way too much credit for selecting him. He was simply a player who far exceeded everyone's expectations and Det was the lucky team who ended up with him.

The Datsyuk pick is even more of a joke. The Wings drafted Jiri Fischer, Ryan Barnes, Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken, Brent Hobday, Calle Steen and Adam Deleeuw a ahead of him. 7 crappy plays ahead of Datsyuk, but they still get lauded as "amazing talent scouts".


If its that easy and just luck then what in the world is Shero and most of the other GM's doing- basically this thread comes down to Shero drafts have been terrible so far ( his trades have been excellent).
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Hockeynut! on Tue May 08, 2012 10:17 pm

pens#1 wrote:If its that easy and just luck then what in the world is Shero and most of the other GM's doing- basically this thread comes down to Shero drafts have been terrible so far ( his trades have been excellent).


I didn't comment at all on Shero. I'm simply saying that Detroit gets a ton of credit for two late round steals but doesn't get any grief for scores of busts.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby DesertPenguin on Wed May 09, 2012 1:26 am

It's not as bad as you think. Lets compare the 6 drafts in the RS era to the final 6 drafts of the CP era. I'm only going to list players here that played more than a handful of games for the big club, or for the younger prospects that look like sure bets to do so in the near future.

Patrick Era

2000
18 Brooks Orpik
124 Michel Ouellet

2001
21 Colby Armstrong
120 Tomas Surovy

2002
5 Ryan Whitney
69 Erik Christensen
234 Max Talbot

2003
1 Marc Andre Fleury
(Not counting Carcillo, Bissonette or Moulson here because they made it elsewhere, not here)

2004
1 Evgeni Malkin
61 Alex Goligoski
99 Tyler Kennedy

2005
1 Sidney Crosby
62 Kris Letang
195 Joe Vitale

Shero Era

2006
2 Jordan Staal
65 Brian Strait

2007
171 Dustin Jeffrey

2008
(Top three picks plus 2007 1st round pick Esposito traded away for Hossa, Dupuis and Gill)

2009
30 Simon Despres

2010
20 Beau Bennett

2011
23 Joe Morrow
54 Scott Harrington

With the exception of 2007 and 2008, we got production out of our first rounder pretty much every year. The 2008 first rounder and the player taken with the 2007 first rounder went to get Hossa.

Considering we are just now seeing guys like Vitale hit the big show, I expect a few of the younger guys not on this list (Bortuzzo, Kuhnhackl, Rust, D'Agostino) to pan out well in future years.

Looking at the whole list, Shero had a horrible 2007 draft, but otherwise has been on par with Patrick.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby sil on Wed May 09, 2012 8:31 am

DesertPenguin wrote:Looking at the whole list, Shero had a horrible 2007 draft, but otherwise has been on par with Patrick.


It's still too early to really tell with most of Shero's picks...still, he can't do much worse than Patrick did as a whole.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Sheriff66 on Wed May 09, 2012 8:42 am

Corvidae wrote:
pens#1 wrote:the problem with the 2005 draft is that it was done by CP - not Shero


I'm still waiting for Shero to draft an NHL regular besides Staal.


Yeah, nobody he ever picked will make the NHL roster :face:
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby MRandall25 on Wed May 09, 2012 8:45 am

Sheriff66 wrote:
Corvidae wrote:
pens#1 wrote:the problem with the 2005 draft is that it was done by CP - not Shero


I'm still waiting for Shero to draft an NHL regular besides Staal.


Yeah, nobody he ever picked will make the NHL roster :face:


"NHL regular".

The guys we've drafted so far have either stayed in the AHL or have only been up for injuries and get sent back down. He has a point.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Sheriff66 on Wed May 09, 2012 8:54 am

MRandall25 wrote:
Sheriff66 wrote:
Corvidae wrote:
pens#1 wrote:the problem with the 2005 draft is that it was done by CP - not Shero


I'm still waiting for Shero to draft an NHL regular besides Staal.


Yeah, nobody he ever picked will make the NHL roster :face:


"NHL regular".

The guys we've drafted so far have either stayed in the AHL or have only been up for injuries and get sent back down. He has a point.


Despres, Bennett, Morrow and probably Harrington and Kuhnhackel will be NHL regulars but it takes time, Jeffrey would be if not for injuries, Strait probably would be if not for FA signings on defense. There are other with a good chance as well, but once again, these things take time.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby MRandall25 on Wed May 09, 2012 8:56 am

Sheriff66 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Sheriff66 wrote:
Corvidae wrote:
pens#1 wrote:the problem with the 2005 draft is that it was done by CP - not Shero


I'm still waiting for Shero to draft an NHL regular besides Staal.


Yeah, nobody he ever picked will make the NHL roster :face:


"NHL regular".

The guys we've drafted so far have either stayed in the AHL or have only been up for injuries and get sent back down. He has a point.


Despres, Bennett, Morrow and probably Harrington and Kuhnhackel will be NHL regulars but it takes time, Jeffrey would be if not for injuries, Strait probably would be if not for FA signings on defense. There are other with a good chance as well, but once again, these things take time.


Key word is "will".

Corv is referring to now, the present. Presently, Staal is the only one.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby ShaPe on Wed May 09, 2012 9:50 am

I find it funny when people say wings had luck. Wings have a different draft philosophy. Its boom or bust. They rather take a player with high potential in one area and try to develope his other weakness than to try to draft a good overall player that will end up on the 3rd line.
They know 3rd and 4th liners can be had easily but stars are harder to get.
So yes some luck has to do with Zetterberg and Dats developed to stars and most of their picks fail but thats how they draft. Big risk big reward.
Shero and CP for that matter just take a good overall player that is more lock to just make it to the NHL. Right or wrong its just two complete ways of drafting
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby sil on Wed May 09, 2012 10:05 am

ShaPe wrote:I find it funny when people say wings had luck. Wings have a different draft philosophy. Its boom or bust. They rather take a player with high potential in one area and try to develope his other weakness than to try to draft a good overall player that will end up on the 3rd line.
They know 3rd and 4th liners can be had easily but stars are harder to get.
So yes some luck has to do with Zetterberg and Dats developed to stars and most of their picks fail but thats how they draft. Big risk big reward.
Shero and CP for that matter just take a good overall player that is more lock to just make it to the NHL. Right or wrong its just two complete ways of drafting


For a lot of their players, yes, but in regards to Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, etc...those guys were all drafted by Holland who invested earlier and far more often in the euro leagues than most GM's...which is where he uncovered those gems. He drafted them late, not because he didn't have some idea of their potential, but because he knew (at that time) very few GM's were seeking out the talent in those same avenues. You have to hand it to him...those three picks specifically are some of the most shrewd ones we've seen in some time.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Sheriff66 on Wed May 09, 2012 10:54 am

MRandell25 wrote:Key word is "will".

Corv is referring to now, the present. Presently, Staal is the only one.


I would include Jeffrey also, he was a regular until he was injured. Saying Shero drafting has not been good is just jumping the gun IMO, most players take time to develop so you don't know for years down the road. I think we start seeing the fruits of his labor very soon at the NHL level.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby columbia on Wed May 09, 2012 10:56 am

Sheriff66 wrote:
MRandell25 wrote:Key word is "will".

Corv is referring to now, the present. Presently, Staal is the only one.


I would include Jeffrey also, he was a regular until he was injured. Saying Shero drafting has not been good is just jumping the gun IMO, most players take time to develop so you don't know for years down the road. I think we start seeing the fruits of his labor very soon at the NHL level.


To no avail, I tried to make this point after some were :scared: over drafting Despres.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Sheriff66 on Wed May 09, 2012 11:04 am

columbia wrote:
Sheriff66 wrote:
MRandell25 wrote:Key word is "will".

Corv is referring to now, the present. Presently, Staal is the only one.


I would include Jeffrey also, he was a regular until he was injured. Saying Shero drafting has not been good is just jumping the gun IMO, most players take time to develop so you don't know for years down the road. I think we start seeing the fruits of his labor very soon at the NHL level.


To no avail, I tried to make this point after some were :scared: over drafting Despres.


In a few years there will be a "Shero is a draft master" thread. :face:
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Corvidae on Wed May 09, 2012 1:33 pm

Sheriff66 wrote:In a few years there will be a "Shero is a draft master" thread. :face:


No need for a faceplam, really. That will be pretty cool if it happens.

Nevertheless, right now, NOW, Shero has drafted 1 player who takes regular NHL shifts on any team in 6 years.

"BUT WHAT ABOUT ____?! THEY'RE GONNA MAKE..." - That's not right NOW is it?

"But Jeffery could be..." - But he isn't.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue with a post that's a fact and not an opinion. Shero joined the team in 2006. Anyone want to tell me I'm wrong because he could have been hired in 2005 if Patrick got fired faster?

Saying Shero drafting has not been good is just jumping the gun IMO, most players take time to develop so you don't know for years down the road. I think we start seeing the fruits of his labor very soon at the NHL level.


I agree with that we'll start to see the fruits of his labor very soon at the NHL level. And you might not be able to say he's been bad, but until they actually get to the NHL, you certainly can't say he's been good.
Last edited by Corvidae on Wed May 09, 2012 1:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Pavel Bure on Wed May 09, 2012 1:38 pm

This team has been blessed with capable NHL talent to the point that they can afford to insulate their draft picks and not rush them to the NHL. I don't know why that's a bad thing.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Corvidae on Wed May 09, 2012 1:39 pm

It's not.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby MRandall25 on Wed May 09, 2012 1:59 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:This team has been blessed with capable NHL talent to the point that they can afford to insulate their draft picks and not rush them to the NHL. I don't know why that's a bad thing.


I guess to elaborate on Corv's point, it's not a bad thing, until you start losing those guys with NHL talent for various reasons (FA, injuries, etc). Then you're stuck with a bunch of Tangradi's who appear to be too good for the minors, but not good enough for the NHL.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed May 09, 2012 2:04 pm

He started drafting in 2006. Thats 6 full seasons ago. Which of his draft picks are developing to the point that they might contribute soon? Despres.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Corvidae on Wed May 09, 2012 2:09 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:This team has been blessed with capable NHL talent to the point that they can afford to insulate their draft picks and not rush them to the NHL. I don't know why that's a bad thing.


I guess to elaborate on Corv's point, it's not a bad thing, until you start losing those guys with NHL talent for various reasons (FA, injuries, etc). Then you're stuck with a bunch of Tangradi's who appear to be too good for the minors, but not good enough for the NHL.


Yeah, it's never a bad ting to have a lot of proven NHL talent. But the downside is a lot of question marks in the minors (especially forward, where they really just suck prospect-wise [referring to the AHL - Bennett, Kuhnhackl, etc TBD]).
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Corvidae on Wed May 09, 2012 2:12 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:He started drafting in 2006. Thats 6 full seasons ago. Which of his draft picks are developing to the point that they might contribute soon? Despres.


If Shero and Co actually allow a young rookie to play. That rarely happens outside of Crosby, Malkin, and Staal. I think Letang might be the only one.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby sil on Wed May 09, 2012 2:34 pm

Corvidae wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:He started drafting in 2006. Thats 6 full seasons ago. Which of his draft picks are developing to the point that they might contribute soon? Despres.


If Shero and Co actually allow a young rookie to play. That rarely happens outside of Crosby, Malkin, and Staal. I think Letang might be the only one.


Letang was pretty much 'eased' in with <full season in 2007-08, and then full-time 3rd pairing in 2008-09.
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Re: 2005, good draft for the pens.

Postby Sheriff66 on Thu May 10, 2012 12:51 pm

Corvidae wrote:
Sheriff66 wrote:In a few years there will be a "Shero is a draft master" thread. :face:


No need for a faceplam, really. That will be pretty cool if it happens.

Nevertheless, right now, NOW, Shero has drafted 1 player who takes regular NHL shifts on any team in 6 years.

"BUT WHAT ABOUT ____?! THEY'RE GONNA MAKE..." - That's not right NOW is it?

"But Jeffery could be..." - But he isn't.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue with a post that's a fact and not an opinion. Shero joined the team in 2006. Anyone want to tell me I'm wrong because he could have been hired in 2005 if Patrick got fired faster?

Saying Shero drafting has not been good is just jumping the gun IMO, most players take time to develop so you don't know for years down the road. I think we start seeing the fruits of his labor very soon at the NHL level.


I agree with that we'll start to see the fruits of his labor very soon at the NHL level. And you might not be able to say he's been bad, but until they actually get to the NHL, you certainly can't say he's been good.


You can't say he's been bad either, this isn't the NFL
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