Please don't break up this team

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Please don't break up this team

Postby tscottw56 on Mon May 14, 2012 11:32 am

I look in on these posts everyday because I love this team and I love to read everyones opinions. All of you, like myself, are the greatest Penguin fans in the world. We all want this team to be the best it can be. Cup, cup, cup...win, win, win,... fire, fire, fire, trade, trade, trade ???

Can we just sit back for a moment and just enjoy this very exciting season? Its been a couple of weeks since we were dissappointed, as I was. Too short an ending for the best team in hockey today. I think it is the best team in hockey and will be for quite a while (minuse salary cap decisions).

I watched/listened to every game this year and looking at the big picture, it was one of the best and most exciting. We are blessed with the greatest players in the world and play the most exciting hockey on the planet. I love out style, win or lose. I want to see the coast to coasts, I want to see the tic tac toes, and I want to see the 5-3 games. I don't want shots from the point with six bearded hulks standing in front hoping it deflects in or 2-1 triple overtimes. As you get older (for our younger posters) you forget wins and losses and just remember the great. We had a lot of great this year and the last several. Remember the Malkin rushes, the Crosby intensity, the Neil surprise year, the Jordan joy, and the Fleury magic, plus all the accomplishments by the others.

I never post and I'll probably get dissed for saying these things from the "win at all cost" and "its a bad season if you don't win the cup" people, but now that the season is over I still feel it was a great one. It takes luck and talent (with discipline....Philthy losses) to win the cup. We have an abundance of one of them. Next year we get both. Thanks Pens......for the great memories this year and I hope to see all of you back next year !!!!!!!
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon May 14, 2012 11:34 am

Salary cap
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon May 14, 2012 11:36 am

I don't value entertaining hockey over winning hockey.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby sil on Mon May 14, 2012 12:12 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:I don't value entertaining hockey over winning hockey.


We need to keep that Art Ross banner fresh with names...even if it means losing in the first round every year! :slug:
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Fast B on Mon May 14, 2012 12:33 pm

Okay, I won't.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby penny lane on Mon May 14, 2012 12:53 pm

I think the team knew more was expected from them. Trading deadline, GM Shero quoted as saying the team wanted to win with its current group. They need some speed and size. It will be painful to see the young core broken up. IF it happens.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby interstorm on Mon May 14, 2012 1:01 pm

tscottw56 wrote:I look in on these posts everyday because I love this team and I love to read everyones opinions. All of you, like myself, are the greatest Penguin fans in the world.


i'm with you. i think the media is jumping the gun on everything and speculating to create a story on this issue. while it is very possible that a major piece of the team will be moved, i really enjoy the players (and people) we have. so much is contingent upon what crosby and staal demand -- so i think it is important for us true fans to make sure they feel the love from the city.

maybe sid stays at the same salary or (gasp) even takes less...

maybe staal really doesn't have a problem playing with or behind geno and crosby and views that as his best chance for immortality on the cup...

maybe the cap doesn't go down...

maybe this - maybe that...

there is just too much rampant speculation and reporting on such speculation going on that i feel this cloud of negativity being dropped on the franchise. i feel like there is this sense that someone MUST go -- like jordan, sid and geno are sitting around a table with a loaded revolver playing (pardon the expression) russian roulette and that sooner or later the gun will go off and one of them is gone.

i don't feel that...

i don't want to feel that...

i don't want THEM to feel that...

so i'm with you, tscottw56, and hoping that this team sticks together and wins together. i think we have as good a shot with the current players as we do with anyone else (while living under a salary cap like we want/need) for the next couple seasons. yeah, i'd make some minor moves but i'd look to leave the core.

i love this team and i love these players...all of them!
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby The Snapshot on Mon May 14, 2012 1:13 pm

I don't think this is a given that they will be broken up. In fact I think it is more likely that they will be kept basically intact, with a tweak or two.

I would love the enture 4th line to be retooled. I would like someone to be brought in that can challenge for a third line role. I would like to see more size for D as well as the 4th line in whatever changes are made.

It still is plausible that the Core will see a major move though, as someone said above for Salary Cap reasons. This would be a preemptive strike, to replenish the forward prospect pool and to free some money.

My biggest concern organizationally is the lack of any young forwards who can push for top 6 duty. If a core forward were to get to the end of their contract, we would be left with no internal challengers and no return assets for that player. I think that is why you are reading people (myself included) discussing whether a move of Letang, Staal, Geno or Crosby makes organizational sense.

I don't read a lot of "change for change's" sake posts, other than the fire Bylsma group.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon May 14, 2012 1:30 pm

The portion of the fire Bylsma group that is "change for change's sake" is very small.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby SolidSnake on Mon May 14, 2012 1:59 pm

I never would want a coach fire just for change for changes sake. I just think Byslma deserves to be fired.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby owtahear on Mon May 14, 2012 2:00 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:Salary cap



Ummm........Salary Cap.


Just to reiterate.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby meow on Mon May 14, 2012 2:12 pm

SolidSnake wrote:I never would want a coach fire just for change for changes sake. I just think Byslma deserves to be fired.

I don't really understand the thinking behind this. Or else I haven't seen a well enough excuse to justify it.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby interstorm on Mon May 14, 2012 2:13 pm

The Snapshot wrote:My biggest concern organizationally is the lack of any young forwards who can push for top 6 duty. If a core forward were to get to the end of their contract, we would be left with no internal challengers and no return assets for that player. I think that is why you are reading people (myself included) discussing whether a move of Letang, Staal, Geno or Crosby makes organizational sense.


...but i think the james neal trade shows us that we don't require a forward prospect in the system in order to get a top 6 scorer -- we just need good prospects any any position. in fact, i think the loading up on 1 position (defense) is pretty shrewd. the draft is always a bit of a gamble. by taking much of the same position, it really has provided us great depth in one area and (so it looks) ensures that some of the picks will be very good. we can either bring them up to solidify one part of the team (read: spend elsewhere) or they can be moved -- whatever is needed.

i'd be surprised if in 3 years all of despres, morrow and harrington are with the team. They can be moved for a similar prospect at the other end of the ice. for a team competing to win the cup, i think we take a big step backwards by trading a letang or staal. i believe the balance we seek (in our system) comes prospect/prospect trades.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Mon May 14, 2012 2:15 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:The portion of the fire Bylsma group that is "change for change's sake" is very small.


Agreed. Also, the portion of the fire bylsma group that just does not like HCDB is small as well. The past 3 years of playoff performance, taken as a whole, indicates that the current formula for the pens isnt working. If it is not working, it needs to change.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby interstorm on Mon May 14, 2012 2:29 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:The past 3 years of playoff performance, taken as a whole, indicates that the current formula for the pens isnt working. If it is not working, it needs to change.


The formula may have been the same but the ingredients were vastly different.
2010: tired players - previous 2 seasons were very long
2011: no sid/geno - overachieved to get where they did
2012: should have done better and disappointed - no questions there

given what we have seen and the high regard players around the league have for HCDB, not to mention bringing the cup home and his regular season PCT, i think he has earned the right to give it another go. make no mistakes, though, if the post-season of 2013 looks like 2012, i will not be on this side of the fence! taking everything as a whole, however, i do not expect another disaster and i hope they players (all of them) learned a big lesson on personal discipline this spring.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Mon May 14, 2012 2:34 pm

interstorm wrote:i'd be surprised if in 3 years all of despres, morrow and harrington are with the team.


Surprised? I'd be downright shocked. I give the odds of this at 1% if they can't move Martin, Michalek or Orpik this off season. If Shero truly is "stuck" with these poor experienced defensemen, I think he has no choice then to deal the younger guys away for some quality line depth. You can't expect these young guys to stick around forever, you are just wasting their talent otherwise. For their sake, I want them playing, either with the Pens or someone else. It is only fair for them as human beings.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon May 14, 2012 2:37 pm

IMO, the "tired players" excuse is 2010 is sad sack. I'm willing to give them a pass in 2011, although they had a 3-1 series lead. No excuses in 2012. So no excuses 2 out of 3 years, and a horribly blown series lead in another.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby The Snapshot on Mon May 14, 2012 2:41 pm

interstorm wrote:
...but i think the james neal trade shows us that we don't require a forward prospect in the system in order to get a top 6 scorer -- we just need good prospects any any position. in fact, i think the loading up on 1 position (defense) is pretty shrewd. the draft is always a bit of a gamble. by taking much of the same position, it really has provided us great depth in one area and (so it looks) ensures that some of the picks will be very good. we can either bring them up to solidify one part of the team (read: spend elsewhere) or they can be moved -- whatever is needed.



You make my point for me, because you are neglecting to acknowledge that the only folks who will be able to walk and are sure to be beyond our means are Staal and Letang. These guys will not be affordable in the Cap era, and don't forget that Goligoski was NOT an prospect. He had played quite a bit and actually quite well in my eyes (I know a lot of folks here didn't agree). He had demonstrated ability on the PP and had a strong even strength track record. I was not surprised to see him play so well down the stretch that year.

So IF you want to say we can move Despres or Morrow for a top young forward, you can if we play them asap. Tell me how we afford Staal AND Sid next summer though, and then how we keep Geno the next summer. Trading guys playing out their deal may bring something, but rentals are just that and I would expect a much greater return on a guy with a few years on his deal ala Letang.

Trading Letang doesn't guarantee we can afford Staal, but that is the point as well. We are trading from a position of strength with an asset that would have multiple organizations wanting in. We would be getting ahead of the curve upfront, and in the event of Staal not agreeing to an extension still, we would be able to move him as a rental for a lesser return also, or ride his deal out and watch him walk if we are in position for another run.

It's about creating "layers" of prospects, not just about getting a guy to fill Staal's spot.

Whatever. I just know that this team's cupboard is extremely bare up front, and assuming that guys like Neal being nabbed one at a time in trades is going to fix it is a pipedream. This team needs multiple talented youg forwards to advance this thing into Sid's next deal and hopefully Geno's. These guys need pedigrees and don't necessarily need to have any NHL resume yet. They need to be able to have a shot at the big club next year though.

The alternative is to watch the team lose these guys for nothing and remain an aging team upfront that has also lost most of it's size that is coupled with talent. If Staal does not re-sign, that process accelerates.

The alternative would be for the scouting staff to actually have hit a home run on Beau Bennett, but that appears to be a long shot. Even if they did, we could use three or four of him for the 2013-2014 season.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby sil on Mon May 14, 2012 2:45 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:
interstorm wrote:i'd be surprised if in 3 years all of despres, morrow and harrington are with the team.


Surprised? I'd be downright shocked. I give the odds of this at 1% if they can't move Martin, Michalek or Orpik this off season. If Shero truly is "stuck" with these poor experienced defensemen, I think he has no choice then to deal the younger guys away for some quality line depth. You can't expect these young guys to stick around forever, you are just wasting their talent otherwise. For their sake, I want them playing, either with the Pens or someone else. It is only fair for them as human beings.


In three years, Martin and Michalek's contracts will be up...Orpik and Letang's will have been up the year the before...Despres will be on the first year of his new deal, and Harrington and Morrow will just be ending their EL contracts. The timing works out really well for the pens actually.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Sarcastic on Mon May 14, 2012 3:00 pm

They're not breaking up the team. Some adjustment is needed, but these guys are still young and the team has a bright future. As long as they keep Crosby and Malkin, they're a threat for the Cup each year. Staal may or may not be traded, but I think he's the only one out of the core that may go and it is entirely up to him what happens (what his demands are).
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Mon May 14, 2012 3:01 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:IMO, the "tired players" excuse is 2010 is sad sack. I'm willing to give them a pass in 2011, although they had a 3-1 series lead. No excuses in 2012. So no excuses 2 out of 3 years, and a horribly blown series lead in another.


Pretty much.

Thats why you need to take the past three years as a whole. Hangover or not, the pens played an unispired series against the habs. no one could argue that the habs were a more talented team than the pens that year. Obviously the pens played TB at a great disadvantage, but there is no excuse to blow a 3-1 series lead against any team. They were embarassed by the Flyers this year.

Moreover, the whole "oh its not the same team as 2010 or 2011" thing is bunk, because if it aint the same team as 2010 or 2011, then it most certainly not the team from 2008 or 2009, either.

As HC Mike Tomlin says, the standard is the standard. The pens have many, many things going for them, but they havent done diddly squat the past few years. The window of opportunity is starting to close, and the pens cant afford to sit on their hands.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon May 14, 2012 3:03 pm

owtahear wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Salary cap



Ummm........Salary Cap.


Just to reiterate.



Let’s start with Dave Molinari and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

Molinari notes that Philly GM Paul Holmgren believes the NHL salary cap could rise from $64.5 million to $69 million. If that happens, then the Pens could keep all three of their centers – Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin & Joe Vitale – plus Jordan Staal.

There’s also talk of an “amnesty clause” as part of the next CBA in which each team would be allowed to shed itself of one bad contract, without having it count against the salary cap. Hmmm, any ideas on which deal the Pens might take a look at?
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby interstorm on Mon May 14, 2012 4:01 pm

The Snapshot wrote:the only folks who will be able to walk and are sure to be beyond our means are Staal and Letang. These guys will not be affordable in the Cap era


speculation, not fact.

the gogo/neal trade is a great example. we can do the same when needed with our prospects. yeah, we may not get a 2-3 year veteran with a 20-some odd average goals per season but we will get a prospect in line with what we give up. if your problem is that we don't have a future top 6 winger, then we can get that by trading a future top 4 D-man. we got those already.

if your problem is that we don't have a current top 6 forward (outside, of course, the names of crosby, malkin, staal, neal, kunitz) then i would remind you of the number of goals we scored this year. that isn't our problem and we don't really need more now.

...so when it comes to the forwards - i am not sure where the problem is unless you are SURE about the cap. yeah, we can make a preemptive move but i liken that to the leader in a race taking a risky short cut. we stick to the known and go from there.

also i am of the impression that moving some of the guys with the no trade - no movement is not impossible. they want to succeed too, and if the team isn't the right fit for them i am guessing they would want out as well. both of these guys have proven themselves and while they may be slightly overpaid, tossing in extra compensation (additional picks to lean the trade more favorably to the other team) can be done. this is a mole hill, not a mountain.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Bioshock on Mon May 14, 2012 4:29 pm

Salary Cap...

Things change and we have no idea what the next CBA holds. All we know for sure or at least a 99% certainty is that Crosby will be re-signed. And even knowing that, we have no idea at how much. Will he take a discount? Will he take cap Max? Something in between?

Like everything else going into the summer, Who the **** knows?
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon May 14, 2012 4:45 pm

Yeah I have zero problem with Shero drafting D like he has been. Teams are ALWAYS looking for young up and coming D to fill top 4 positions. Especially puck movers. They are willing to pay a premium for them even when they are perceived to be on the decline or not reaching their potential for various reasons hence the Neal/Nisky trade and the Kunitz/Tangradi trade. Have a log jam of good defense is a great "problem" to have in order to fill out the team.
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