Please don't break up this team

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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon May 14, 2012 4:49 pm

Bioshock wrote:Salary Cap...

Things change and we have no idea what the next CBA holds. All we know for sure or at least a 99% certainty is that Crosby will be re-signed. And even knowing that, we have no idea at how much. Will he take a discount? Will he take cap Max? Something in between?

Like everything else going into the summer, Who the **** knows?

To this point there's no way I think Crosby can ask for league max. I'd really want him to take a bit of a pay cut if I was Shero. Due to his injury situation, and prior history I don't think you can lock up that much of the cap in a guy that now has a checkered injury history that has kept him out for long periods of time. That's just me though and likely if Sid wants maximum salary he will get maximum salary. I probably ask him to take a pay cut down to 7.5M, 8M at the most but heck that's why I'm not the GM.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby The Snapshot on Mon May 14, 2012 6:22 pm

interstorm wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:the only folks who will be able to walk and are sure to be beyond our means are Staal and Letang. These guys will not be affordable in the Cap era


the gogo/neal trade is a great example. if your problem is that we don't have a future top 6 winger, then we can get that by trading a future top 4 D-man. we got those already.

if your problem is that we don't have a current top 6 forward (outside, of course, the names of crosby, malkin, staal, neal, kunitz) then i would remind you of the number of goals we scored this year. that isn't our problem and we don't really need more now.

...so when it comes to the forwards - i am not sure where the problem is unless you are SURE about the cap. yeah, we can make a preemptive move but i liken that to the leader in a race taking a risky short cut. we stick to the known and go from there.


Well, I don't know where to start with the statements above, other than to say you didn't read anything other than the one sentence you quoted. The Gogo trade was a smaller version of what I mention in the Letang deal. The Martin/Michalek contracts are anchors as of right now, and moving them would bring nothing more than cap relief and no real talent in return. I'm not sure where you get the abundance of top 4 Dmen we have either, because Martin, Michalek and Orpik failed miserably and have limited upside. Letang is the jewel to restock the system.

If you think I want guys who can score more goals, then I don't think you are getting it either. I want size, enthusiasm and upside that will be here for two contracts moving forward.

The fact that you think we are the leaders in the race makes me wonder as well. We haven't been out of the 1st round in three years. This team needs a transfusion, and rather than trading everyone, I am proposing a trade that could serve many purposes including injecting size and youth into the forward mix to replace middleweight, aging guys like Cooke, Kunitz, Dupuis, etc. upfront. These guys are good for now, but I think we saw the lack of size and their advancing age show in the playoffs.

We can stay the course, trade Martin for nothing and get cap relief or hope that the Cap goes up but that doesn't leave us anywhere in terms of the mix at forward. Our D is in much better shape for the future. The forwards are either aging, or will command a tremendous Cap hit on their next deal. I think we can keep Staal, Malkin and Crosby and also build around them with more youthful legs by biting one bullet. I'd also say that any trade of Martin should bring a veteran 5th or 6th D in return if anything. These moves could reshape this team and set it up for another 4-6 years.

I guess I am more confident in Despres than most on the board though.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby BigMcK on Mon May 14, 2012 7:00 pm

It would be a shame to see this level of All-Star talent be wasted by a failed system. The role players rely too much on the super gifted players and the defense looked like they thought had a wall playing in net behind them. I guess to me it's not so much about the names on the back of the jersey (outside of a few knuckleheads), but that the team competes for the team logo on the front. However, both the GM and coach need to be on the same page with the players on the ice for it all to work.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Bioshock on Mon May 14, 2012 7:48 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:Yeah I have zero problem with Shero drafting D like he has been. Teams are ALWAYS looking for young up and coming D to fill top 4 positions. Especially puck movers. They are willing to pay a premium for them even when they are perceived to be on the decline or not reaching their potential for various reasons hence the Neal/Nisky trade and the Kunitz/Tangradi trade. Have a log jam of good defense is a great "problem" to have in order to fill out the team.


Well, it's pretty obvious that Shero is drafting an overabundance of D-men so that he can develop and trade them when he has too many. He can't draft offensive talent to save his life so he goes the other route through trade to acquire proven performers. Perfect examples would be Kunitz and Neal.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon May 14, 2012 7:50 pm

Bioshock wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Yeah I have zero problem with Shero drafting D like he has been. Teams are ALWAYS looking for young up and coming D to fill top 4 positions. Especially puck movers. They are willing to pay a premium for them even when they are perceived to be on the decline or not reaching their potential for various reasons hence the Neal/Nisky trade and the Kunitz/Tangradi trade. Have a log jam of good defense is a great "problem" to have in order to fill out the team.


Well, it's pretty obvious that Shero is drafting an overabundance of D-men so that he can develop and trade them when he has too many. He can't draft offensive talent to save his life so he goes the other route through trade to acquire proven performers. Perfect examples would be Kunitz and Neal.

If you know one trick you do it and do it well. Shero certainly does that and gets the Pens what they need.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Bioshock on Mon May 14, 2012 7:52 pm

It would be nice that the cap goes up to 69 million and stays there. It's projected to jump but if the owners have their way there is rumblings it might go down, even as low as 60 million. That's a huge discrepancy.

What would be the most amazing of outcomes would be if the cap went up like it's supposed to, stays there and then the new CBA has an amnesty clause built in where they can void a contract like Martin's or if there is a soft cap where you can go way over for one individual (Crosby) on your roster.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Bioshock on Mon May 14, 2012 7:56 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
Bioshock wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:Yeah I have zero problem with Shero drafting D like he has been. Teams are ALWAYS looking for young up and coming D to fill top 4 positions. Especially puck movers. They are willing to pay a premium for them even when they are perceived to be on the decline or not reaching their potential for various reasons hence the Neal/Nisky trade and the Kunitz/Tangradi trade. Have a log jam of good defense is a great "problem" to have in order to fill out the team.


Well, it's pretty obvious that Shero is drafting an overabundance of D-men so that he can develop and trade them when he has too many. He can't draft offensive talent to save his life so he goes the other route through trade to acquire proven performers. Perfect examples would be Kunitz and Neal.

If you know one trick you do it and do it well. Shero certainly does that and gets the Pens what they need.


Oh, i know! I actually think it's genius outside the Martin and Michalek contracts. I would be lying if i didn't say i thought they were good signings at the time. Oh well, live and learn.

But i love what Shero is doing. Rotate in young, highly skilled draft picks who are on their first contract while supplementing the offensive side of the puck with trades from your overabundance at the blue line. If only the playoffs had a better outcome, this model would look like pure gold. I think he needs to stick with this model even though they have had disappointments recently.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Kaizer on Mon May 14, 2012 9:11 pm

I'm all for ditching Orpik and Martin for Despres and Morrow.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Streaks House on Mon May 14, 2012 9:21 pm

The Snapshot wrote:Whatever. I just know that this team's cupboard is extremely bare up front, and assuming that guys like Neal being nabbed one at a time in trades is going to fix it is a pipedream. This team needs multiple talented youg forwards to advance this thing into Sid's next deal and hopefully Geno's. These guys need pedigrees and don't necessarily need to have any NHL resume yet. They need to be able to have a shot at the big club next year though.

The alternative is to watch the team lose these guys for nothing and remain an aging team upfront that has also lost most of it's size that is coupled with talent. If Staal does not re-sign, that process accelerates.

The alternative would be for the scouting staff to actually have hit a home run on Beau Bennett, but that appears to be a long shot. Even if they did, we could use three or four of him for the 2013-2014 season.


This is a legitimate concern. Within the next 2 years, they are going to need a rookie forward that can score 10-20 goals. Another TK, Talbot, or Armstrong-type player. I think their is a lot of excitement around players like Beau Bennett and Thomas Kuhnhackl, but these are 2 players who have yet to play minutes beyond NCAA and OHL. Time will tell.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Penspal on Tue May 15, 2012 8:26 am

Don't take this the wrong way, but if they can somehow get rid of the $5M on Paul Martin, they replace him with Despres at 1M, doesn't that give you ~$4M in cap room. Surely you can get Jordan in under that?

So how do the Pens shed Martin and his salary, well that's the $4M question. PM is not as bad as people say, but he played with very little confidence and was horrible when the Pens needed him most. I seriously doubt he could be traded. Maybe you go the Wade Reddon route, send him to the minors? Or maybe you buy him out? Burkle has got cash, Mario is not broke. Didn't they just raise ticket prices...... again? Isn't the new arena a "money making venue"? If you can't get rid of him, he needs to play better than he's shown so far or the Pens overpaid BIGTIME for him, not just the FA bump, mega overpay. And if they need to, get him the best sports psych out there.

They always say that hockey is a business, and I think if its shipping out Staal vs. coming down on Martin or "paying for your mistakes" with buyout, you do the latter. The way the league with salary cap is right now, you have a window of 3-5 years where you can grow and keep talent before you have to blow it up to stay under cap. The Pens are hitting the end of that.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Tue May 15, 2012 8:48 am

I'm not a hockey contract expert in the slightest so I have no idea how it works but Martin signed a 5 year deal at $5M/per. So I'm assuming we are still on the hook for $15M (wow, what a stupid deal to give anyone...including Sid!). Guaranteeing 5 years was insanely trusting. He is 31 now so Shero wanted him till he was 34 at that price?! The year before we got him he played 22 games and had 11 points for NJ. As in, are you freaking insane paying that price for a nobody? I think this may have been Shero's stupidest move ever.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby jcgopens on Tue May 15, 2012 9:03 am

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I'm not a hockey contract expert in the slightest so I have no idea how it works but Martin signed a 5 year deal at $5M/per. So I'm assuming we are still on the hook for $15M (wow, what a stupid deal to give anyone...including Sid!). Guaranteeing 5 years was insanely trusting. He is 31 now so Shero wanted him till he was 34 at that price?! The year before we got him he played 22 games and had 11 points for NJ. As in, are you freaking insane paying that price for a nobody? I think this may have been Shero's stupidest move ever.


According to Shero, Martin took a discount to come here. I really didn't know much about Martin before he came here, but he was supposed to be on the USA Olympic team but could not play because of injury to his arm.

It seems that he is a good player, just not good in the Penguins system.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby darkstar57 on Tue May 15, 2012 9:03 am

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I'm not a hockey contract expert in the slightest so I have no idea how it works but Martin signed a 5 year deal at $5M/per. So I'm assuming we are still on the hook for $15M (wow, what a stupid deal to give anyone...including Sid!). Guaranteeing 5 years was insanely trusting. He is 31 now so Shero wanted him till he was 34 at that price?! The year before we got him he played 22 games and had 11 points for NJ. As in, are you freaking insane paying that price for a nobody? I think this may have been Shero's stupidest move ever.


not sure what you mean by guaranteeing 5 years, all hockey contracts aer guaranteed. and he was a FA, you have to give that extra year to lure players to come play for u

Also the year before he was injured, hence why he only played 22 games

finally, he was not a nobody shero signed, he was the devils top d-men before he got hurt.

I just don't think he fits HCDB style of play as well as was thought, if we insulate our d-men more and have more of a defensive structure then we have i think martin will be worth the money
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby sil on Tue May 15, 2012 9:27 am

Martin was widely considered the best two-way defenseman on the market in 2010...considered better than Gonchar. The penguins, kings, and islanders were the highest bidders for his services, but there were said to be about 5 other teams tossing offers over $4,000,000 per year at him. The kings reported offer was $5,500,000, but for a shorter term. The islanders reportedly offered even more than that, but Martin didn't prefer to play on Long Island. Shero said after the frenzy that Martin was his primary target...he wanted a duo of Hamhuis and Martin, but Michalek was the consolation prize for Ham.

Martin was a very good defender for the Devils...he played multiple seasons with few injuries until his arm was broken in late 2009 (by Guerin?). He played the point on the PP, though he was never a 'shooter,' but more of a distributer. He's always had a really nice first pass, but he's also never played a physical game. He's an amazingly good stick-checker...much like Goligoski in those regards, only more crisp based on his experience.

The devils employed a varying trap system while Martin played there, something that we don't do much around here...except for most of the end of last season while Malkin and Crosby were injured. Now...surprise, surprise...it's no coincidence that Martin (and Michalek...and Orpik) played some of their best recent hockey during that stretch when the pens relied on hard work and backchecking, as opposed to skill and running and gunning like they did this season, especially after Sid came back.

Martin can look great on the right team and with the right system...but other than his breakout, I've seen little evidence that tells me Paul can thrive in what Bylsma wants to do. To be honest, what I really see is the necesity to employ large physical D-men all across the board, because the pens forwards (led by Crosby and Malkin) simply are lousy at backchecking...or they're showing very little interest in it as of late...and our defenders are getting left on islands against teams with a strong attacking forecheck...i.e. like the Flyers.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby The Snapshot on Tue May 15, 2012 9:51 am

sil wrote:Martin was widely considered the best two-way defenseman on the market in 2010...considered better than Gonchar. The penguins, kings, and islanders were the highest bidders for his services, but there were said to be about 5 other teams tossing offers over $4,000,000 per year at him. The kings reported offer was $5,500,000, but for a shorter term. The islanders reportedly offered even more than that, but Martin didn't prefer to play on Long Island. Shero said after the frenzy that Martin was his primary target...he wanted a duo of Hamhuis and Martin, but Michalek was the consolation prize for Ham.

Martin was a very good defender for the Devils...he played multiple seasons with few injuries until his arm was broken in late 2009 (by Guerin?). He played the point on the PP, though he was never a 'shooter,' but more of a distributer. He's always had a really nice first pass, but he's also never played a physical game. He's an amazingly good stick-checker...much like Goligoski in those regards, only more crisp based on his experience.

The devils employed a varying trap system while Martin played there, something that we don't do much around here...except for most of the end of last season while Malkin and Crosby were injured. Now...surprise, surprise...it's no coincidence that Martin (and Michalek...and Orpik) played some of their best recent hockey during that stretch when the pens relied on hard work and backchecking, as opposed to skill and running and gunning like they did this season, especially after Sid came back.

Martin can look great on the right team and with the right system...but other than his breakout, I've seen little evidence that tells me Paul can thrive in what Bylsma wants to do. To be honest, what I really see is the necesity to employ large physical D-men all across the board, because the pens forwards (led by Crosby and Malkin) simply are lousy at backchecking...or they're showing very little interest in it as of late...and our defenders are getting left on islands against teams with a strong attacking forecheck...i.e. like the Flyers.


I think Martin can be frustrating to watch when he plays poorly, because his style is kind of nonchalant. It looks like he isn't trying and he is not physical. He played pretty well down the stretch though and he can be a valuable defender.

I think the biggest issue is that neither of Martin or Michalek are physical in the least. The trait of Michalek that infuriates me is his laying down around the crease, when I would prefer a guy on his skates who is moving bodies. When he goes down, he leaves guys uncovered for pokes at loose pucks.

His hip injury may have had something to do with his play this year, which was way worse than the previous season's, but I just don't like his style at all. He absorbs more punishment in every way than he delivers. The combination of these two to me has been a complete failure.

I don't know who would take either, but at this point I believe we should wait for a rebound from one or both of them and then consider the market because what you said about Martin is true. There were a lot of teams interested in him at higher prices than the Pens. Problem is I am not sure he would approve any movement to those teams. He has to play better to be worth anything.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Pitt87 on Tue May 15, 2012 12:02 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:Yeah I have zero problem with Shero drafting D like he has been. Teams are ALWAYS looking for young up and coming D to fill top 4 positions. Especially puck movers. They are willing to pay a premium for them even when they are perceived to be on the decline or not reaching their potential for various reasons hence the Neal/Nisky trade and the Kunitz/Tangradi trade. Have a log jam of good defense is a great "problem" to have in order to fill out the team.


Offense did not lose the last years in the playoffs. We sucked on the PK, we sucked on defense, and frankly everyone behind the blue line on this team is on the block with the exception of Letang and Fleury, and I'm not surprised if RS goes after a legit backup that could contend for a starting position. They have been that bad.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Big Easy Pens Fan on Tue May 15, 2012 2:26 pm

Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm sure most of us here thought that getting Martin was a great deal at the tme, except maybe that we paid a wee bit too much for him. But here's where the hindsight comes in. Martin came from a system that was totally and unquestionably defensively oriented. He thrived in that system. The UFA looked good to Shero so he scooped him up. And he thrived in '10-'11 when the Pens were forced to play tighter on D because of the inavailability of Crosby & Malkin for the last half and third of the season respectively. Then '11-'12 rolls around and we get a healthy and motivated Geno for 7/8ths of the season and a healthy (but maybe kinda out of playing shape) Crosby for just over a 1/4 of the season and the Pens are in a "d@mn the torpedos, full speed ahead" mode which obviously doesn't suit Martin very well. And now all of a sudden, he is a liability on the blueline. Now the question is who might be intersted in him for that much $, plus he has the no trade. But if we can somehow manage to trade him (for a draft choice or choices) and insert Despres into his position, and with Morrow in the wings, this thread is a moot point, because if you can inject $3.5 mil or so back into the coffers (-$5 mil for Martin plus salaries for Despres and or Morrow) you're back in business of at least starting to have enough $ for 87 & 11. Now the question...can we find someone to take that trade? BIG QUESTION!!! :pop:

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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby joker10277 on Tue May 15, 2012 4:50 pm

I don't think changing players is gonna change the playoff results. Disco has proven he's not gonna change what he does from regular season to the playoffs, so your either gonna have to have a super human effort from MAF or the pens are gonna lose in the playoffs, DB's system doesn't put enough emphasis on sound defensive zone coverage plain and simple.
You can change all the players you want but if your preaching, get the puck up ice, play in the offensive zone, get to our game, the results are gonna be the same, good regular season, lousy playoffs.

Now hurry up and renew your season tickets!
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Tico Rick on Tue May 15, 2012 5:08 pm

In the clutch-and-grab, post-"New NHL" era, sound defensive play is what advances you into deeper playoff rounds. DB will need to change his system if he is to be successful. (And I am hopeful that as a young coach, DB took notes and learned from his mistakes this year, and will be able to adapt.) Martin may fit in to a new, more defensive system better.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Tue May 15, 2012 5:11 pm

joker10277 wrote:You can change all the players you want but if your preaching, get the puck up ice, play in the offensive zone, get to our game, the results are gonna be the same, good regular season, lousy playoffs.


I just don't see how this can't be true. So true it hurts.

So now we hang M&M out to dry, next year we hang Despres and Morrow out to dry. But at least we hang cheaper people. :P
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Rylan on Tue May 15, 2012 5:17 pm

The system will be different next year. I would bet money on it.
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Penspal on Fri May 18, 2012 3:30 pm

Penspal wrote:Don't take this the wrong way, but if they can somehow get rid of the $5M on Paul Martin, they replace him with Despres at 1M, doesn't that give you ~$4M in cap room. Surely you can get Jordan in under that?

So how do the Pens shed Martin and his salary, well that's the $4M question. PM is not as bad as people say, but he played with very little confidence and was horrible when the Pens needed him most. I seriously doubt he could be traded. Maybe you go the Wade Reddon route, send him to the minors? Or maybe you buy him out? Burkle has got cash, Mario is not broke. Didn't they just raise ticket prices...... again? Isn't the new arena a "money making venue"? If you can't get rid of him, he needs to play better than he's shown so far or the Pens overpaid BIGTIME for him, not just the FA bump, mega overpay. And if they need to, get him the best sports psych out there.

They always say that hockey is a business, and I think if its shipping out Staal vs. coming down on Martin or "paying for your mistakes" with buyout, you do the latter. The way the league with salary cap is right now, you have a window of 3-5 years where you can grow and keep talent before you have to blow it up to stay under cap. The Pens are hitting the end of that.


Well, at least Dejan K and I are in agreement. His story today reads like my post, only better ;)
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby offsides on Fri May 18, 2012 4:36 pm

Penspal wrote:
Penspal wrote:Don't take this the wrong way, but if they can somehow get rid of the $5M on Paul Martin, they replace him with Despres at 1M, doesn't that give you ~$4M in cap room. Surely you can get Jordan in under that?

So how do the Pens shed Martin and his salary, well that's the $4M question. PM is not as bad as people say, but he played with very little confidence and was horrible when the Pens needed him most. I seriously doubt he could be traded. Maybe you go the Wade Reddon route, send him to the minors? Or maybe you buy him out? Burkle has got cash, Mario is not broke. Didn't they just raise ticket prices...... again? Isn't the new arena a "money making venue"? If you can't get rid of him, he needs to play better than he's shown so far or the Pens overpaid BIGTIME for him, not just the FA bump, mega overpay. And if they need to, get him the best sports psych out there.

They always say that hockey is a business, and I think if its shipping out Staal vs. coming down on Martin or "paying for your mistakes" with buyout, you do the latter. The way the league with salary cap is right now, you have a window of 3-5 years where you can grow and keep talent before you have to blow it up to stay under cap. The Pens are hitting the end of that.


Well, at least Dejan K and I are in agreement. His story today reads like my post, only better ;)


You and Dejan could be right, but you do notice the teams left in the playoffs are balanced teams not teams with 2 or 3 stars?
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Pavel Bure on Fri May 18, 2012 4:38 pm

Kaizer wrote:I'm all for ditching Orpik and Martin for Despres and Morrow.

Based on what
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Re: Please don't break up this team

Postby Corvidae on Fri May 18, 2012 6:06 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
Kaizer wrote:I'm all for ditching Orpik and Martin for Despres and Morrow.

Based on what


Psssh, don't you know? Morrow's gonna be all like RAWR and break the mask of every goalie in the NHL. He's going to win the Selke and Jack Adams, too.
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NHL Healthy Scratch
 
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