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sil wrote:Staggy wrote:Fleury had 4 good periods out of 32? 32 what? He had at the very least 8 good periods, probably more, and that would be out of a total of 18. Fleury did not have a good series, he had a bad one by his standards. But so did the rest of the team.
Nope. Clearly he was the only lousy player out there, and we'd be in the conference championship right now if we had a couple trash cans in the net instead.
Froggy wrote:i think my problem with the attack on fleury is that it COMPLETELY ignores his play for pretty much the entire last 2 years, and only focuses on the bad series against philly
steelhammer wrote:A cursory look at the other players in the NHL clearly reveal that Crosby/Malkin/Staal were not the worst centers in the playoffs.
sil wrote:The Snapshot wrote:sil wrote:You must see how foolish a line of reasoning is that is was all one player's fault?
What's foolish is putting words in my mouth that he is 100% to blame. Never said that. I have simply said over and over that he was terrible, and AHL level performance, and that had he played even a little better the Pens could have gotten the chance to right themselves and play another round.
I have also said multiple times that many teams struggle in the 1st round, right themselves and go on to long runs. If that is not true, explain how the Rangers have played the maximum number of games to this point while playing the 8th and 7th seeds respectively.
I have never ONCE said the Pens would have won the Cup, or even go to the Conference Finals. We will never know because MAF has failed three years in a row to get us out of the 1st round.
His play in all 3 seasons has been horrific. Every single analyst around the country and Canada poses questions about his game, and yet folks on this board think that the Pens style fails in the Playoffs or the coaching staff gets outcoached. My position is that the single biggest failure in this system and coaching staff is that their goaltender leaks goals and fails to make consistent stops at big points in games as soon as the playoffs begin.
That trumps everything to me, because that is simpy fact. No team can win when they get scored on 2 out of 10 shots. Watch every goal from the last 3 season's playoffs and tell me that 30-40% of them are not stoppable shots.
In this past series, fully half of the PP goals were weak and it was the PP where Philly won this series.
Never said Fleury was 100% to blame, but his apologists all know he sucks and they cannot read criticism objectively.
Regarding some of those goals, its definitely easy to call them 'weak,' however saying 50% of the PP goals the flyers scored were weak is subjective opinion, and not fact in any form. I agree a lot of them looked stoppable, but I don't know if I'd say half of them were on MAF...but that's my subjective opinion.
Based on most of what you said above, I agree. MAF had a really bad series. I said so in my original post, and added that the rest of the team was pretty darn lousy as well...which apparently you didn't agree with yesterday, since you went on some rant in response to my post. Now it seems you do agree with it...which I'm happy about.
Froggy wrote:i think my problem with the attack on fleury is that it COMPLETELY ignores his play for pretty much the entire last 2 years, and only focuses on the bad series against philly
sil wrote:steelhammer wrote:A cursory look at the other players in the NHL clearly reveal that Crosby/Malkin/Staal were not the worst centers in the playoffs.
Wait...why? Because we don't have stats to determine a conclusion based on comparrisons with other players of the same position? Malkin wasn't the worst forward, why?...because he scored a couple pretty goals? Malkin sure as hell didn't backcheck worth a damn, and Crosby didn't do much better in that department. I'm not saying it makes them the worst, but it appears that Jarret Stoll is making Malkin and Crosby look like clowns based on similar 'stats.' Claude Giroux scored 16 points in 6 games against us...which is historically high...which I guess makes him hands down the greatest skater of the playoffs. Drew Doughty, who'se club has lost one game so far, leads all remaining players with 14 giveaways...I guess that means he's the worst skater in the playoffs.
Obviously I jest...because I doubt anyone could be serious about using stats to determine who the best and worst players are...in any position since it's clear as day that MANY factors weigh into stats...not just the player putting them up.
The Snapshot wrote:Froggy wrote:i think my problem with the attack on fleury is that it COMPLETELY ignores his play for pretty much the entire last 2 years, and only focuses on the bad series against philly
Froggy, you admitted he is your favorite player. He couldn't stop a beach ball for the first 25 games of last season. He failed miserably in the Playoffs that same year. How is that play that is counter to what happened in this playoff?
He is maddeningly inconsistent. Has been his whole career, including large stretches of the last two seasons. He was terrible in the stretch leading up to this playoff as well.
steelhammer wrote:sil wrote:steelhammer wrote:A cursory look at the other players in the NHL clearly reveal that Crosby/Malkin/Staal were not the worst centers in the playoffs.
Wait...why? Because we don't have stats to determine a conclusion based on comparrisons with other players of the same position? Malkin wasn't the worst forward, why?...because he scored a couple pretty goals? Malkin sure as hell didn't backcheck worth a damn, and Crosby didn't do much better in that department. I'm not saying it makes them the worst, but it appears that Jarret Stoll is making Malkin and Crosby look like clowns based on similar 'stats.' Claude Giroux scored 16 points in 6 games against us...which is historically high...which I guess makes him hands down the greatest skater of the playoffs. Drew Doughty, who'se club has lost one game so far, leads all remaining players with 14 giveaways...I guess that means he's the worst skater in the playoffs.
Obviously I jest...because I doubt anyone could be serious about using stats to determine who the best and worst players are...in any position since it's clear as day that MANY factors weigh into stats...not just the player putting them up.
The burden is on you to prove that the other players played worse than their peers, not on me to develop a negative proof for each of them.
Froggy wrote:The Snapshot wrote:Froggy wrote:i think my problem with the attack on fleury is that it COMPLETELY ignores his play for pretty much the entire last 2 years, and only focuses on the bad series against philly
Froggy, you admitted he is your favorite player. He couldn't stop a beach ball for the first 25 games of last season. He failed miserably in the Playoffs that same year. How is that play that is counter to what happened in this playoff?
He is maddeningly inconsistent. Has been his whole career, including large stretches of the last two seasons. He was terrible in the stretch leading up to this playoff as well.
25 games is just beyond a ridiculous exaggeration. Maybe like 10 games last year. And then all he did was basically carry this team on his back for half the year, get named team MVP, and almost get past Tampa in the playoffs despite having Tyler Kennedy as the team's most consistent offensive threat.
Oh, and then he followed THAT up by not giving up more than 3 goals in a game until like January.
Then the team hung him out to dry towards the end of the year,.and he played a few inexcusably bad games in the playoffs, and that somehow negates all the great stuff he did the two prior years? Please...
At least I admit my opinions aren't objective
Pens4Life wrote:Which goalie could replace MAF,if trade scenario happens? I dont see many upgrades right now,except Quick and Lundquist!
I would trade MAF for both of those guys,but LA and NYR wouldnt! Maybe Ryan Miller or Mike Smith? Certainly noooo to Luongo!
MRandall25 wrote:You really think the Tampa series was a good way to measure Fleury?
Froggy wrote:No one here is saying that goaltending wasn't a big problem in that series.
The "pro-Fleury" comments have pretty much been either;
-everyone stunk, so why single him out?
Or
-3 bad games shouldn't negate almost 2 straight years of exceptional play
ziggo wrote:You have to have lights out Goaltending, Paul Martin or no Paul Martin. Paul Martin didn't play in the last two games. I've never been a Fleury fan (wanted E Staal at the time). Gives up long range shots, doesn't seem to see high left glove shots at times. He seemed to be giving up less rebounds off his pads, but has regressed. Can't cover loose pucks in the crease at all.
Sarcastic wrote:ziggo wrote:You have to have lights out Goaltending, Paul Martin or no Paul Martin. Paul Martin didn't play in the last two games. I've never been a Fleury fan (wanted E Staal at the time). Gives up long range shots, doesn't seem to see high left glove shots at times. He seemed to be giving up less rebounds off his pads, but has regressed. Can't cover loose pucks in the crease at all.
I think a good question to ask is if Fleury has improved - stayed even - or regressed in his last few years and I honestly don't know the answer. At times, he looks like the best goalie in the game, then you look and he loses his focus allowing something silly to go in.
I still say he needs a steady group of defensemen and that is maybe the biggest problem on the team... we can add some kind of a better system to that as well, and I still do like him as #1, but he needs to be steady like Lundqvist.
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