Marc Andre Fleury

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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Froggy on Tue May 15, 2012 12:34 pm

i think my problem with the attack on fleury is that it COMPLETELY ignores his play for pretty much the entire last 2 years, and only focuses on the bad series against philly
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby steelhammer on Tue May 15, 2012 12:38 pm

sil wrote:
Staggy wrote:Fleury had 4 good periods out of 32? 32 what? He had at the very least 8 good periods, probably more, and that would be out of a total of 18. Fleury did not have a good series, he had a bad one by his standards. But so did the rest of the team.


Nope. Clearly he was the only lousy player out there, and we'd be in the conference championship right now if we had a couple trash cans in the net instead. :slug:


There are certainly different degrees of how poorly a player played. A cursory look at the other players in the NHL clearly reveal that Crosby/Malkin/Staal were not the worst centers in the playoffs. Neal/Kunitz/Dupuis/etc. were not the worst wingers in the playoffs. Orpik/Letang/Michalek/Martin were not the worst defensemen in the playoffs.

Fleury on the other hand was by far the worst goalie of the playoffs and there is not even a close 2nd. His sv% of .834 over 6 games is historically low. The 2nd worst sv% of the playoffs was Bryzgalov (.887) and that was still 50 points higher than Fleury. In conclusion, there is bad, and there is historically bad. It's almost impossible to overcome a historically bad performance from a goaltender and advance in the playoffs.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby steelhammer on Tue May 15, 2012 12:43 pm

Froggy wrote:i think my problem with the attack on fleury is that it COMPLETELY ignores his play for pretty much the entire last 2 years, and only focuses on the bad series against philly


As posted earlier, Fleury's playoff stats over last 3 seasons:

series: sv%

Senators: .890
Canadiens: .892
Lightning: .899
Flyers: .834

Total: .880
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby sil on Tue May 15, 2012 2:07 pm

steelhammer wrote:A cursory look at the other players in the NHL clearly reveal that Crosby/Malkin/Staal were not the worst centers in the playoffs.


Wait...why? Because we don't have stats to determine a conclusion based on comparrisons with other players of the same position? Malkin wasn't the worst forward, why?...because he scored a couple pretty goals? Malkin sure as hell didn't backcheck worth a damn, and Crosby didn't do much better in that department. I'm not saying it makes them the worst, but it appears that Jarret Stoll is making Malkin and Crosby look like clowns based on similar 'stats.' Claude Giroux scored 16 points in 6 games against us...which is historically high...which I guess makes him hands down the greatest skater of the playoffs. Drew Doughty, who'se club has lost one game so far, leads all remaining players with 14 giveaways...I guess that means he's the worst skater in the playoffs.

Obviously I jest...because I doubt anyone could be serious about using stats to determine who the best and worst players are...in any position since it's clear as day that MANY factors weigh into stats...not just the player putting them up.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby The Snapshot on Tue May 15, 2012 2:39 pm

sil wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
sil wrote:You must see how foolish a line of reasoning is that is was all one player's fault?


What's foolish is putting words in my mouth that he is 100% to blame. Never said that. I have simply said over and over that he was terrible, and AHL level performance, and that had he played even a little better the Pens could have gotten the chance to right themselves and play another round.

I have also said multiple times that many teams struggle in the 1st round, right themselves and go on to long runs. If that is not true, explain how the Rangers have played the maximum number of games to this point while playing the 8th and 7th seeds respectively.

I have never ONCE said the Pens would have won the Cup, or even go to the Conference Finals. We will never know because MAF has failed three years in a row to get us out of the 1st round.

His play in all 3 seasons has been horrific. Every single analyst around the country and Canada poses questions about his game, and yet folks on this board think that the Pens style fails in the Playoffs or the coaching staff gets outcoached. My position is that the single biggest failure in this system and coaching staff is that their goaltender leaks goals and fails to make consistent stops at big points in games as soon as the playoffs begin.

That trumps everything to me, because that is simpy fact. No team can win when they get scored on 2 out of 10 shots. Watch every goal from the last 3 season's playoffs and tell me that 30-40% of them are not stoppable shots.

In this past series, fully half of the PP goals were weak and it was the PP where Philly won this series.

Never said Fleury was 100% to blame, but his apologists all know he sucks and they cannot read criticism objectively.


Regarding some of those goals, its definitely easy to call them 'weak,' however saying 50% of the PP goals the flyers scored were weak is subjective opinion, and not fact in any form. I agree a lot of them looked stoppable, but I don't know if I'd say half of them were on MAF...but that's my subjective opinion.

Based on most of what you said above, I agree. MAF had a really bad series. I said so in my original post, and added that the rest of the team was pretty darn lousy as well...which apparently you didn't agree with yesterday, since you went on some rant in response to my post. Now it seems you do agree with it...which I'm happy about.


No I don't agree with pretty much anything you said, because you like to try and twist semantics. My point was and always has been that Fleury has not played to anything resembling a solid playoff goaltender, including the year we won the Cup - because he was up a down that entire run.

Your post was about me blaming ONLY Fleury, which was not correct then as it is incorrect now. Fleury has been a consistent reason for our ousters in the past three playoffs. There have been other varying reasons in those separate playoffs, but he has been bad through all of them. He has NEVER risen to the level of consistency we hoped for when he played two great games in a row in a pressure situation to help win a Cup.

His history seems to indicate those two games were the anomoly since the rest of his resume has been inconsistent or even horrible play in big situations. I used to remember his fans trying to sell the idea that he always bounces back from a poor performance, but that hasn't played out either.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby The Snapshot on Tue May 15, 2012 2:42 pm

Froggy wrote:i think my problem with the attack on fleury is that it COMPLETELY ignores his play for pretty much the entire last 2 years, and only focuses on the bad series against philly


Froggy, you admitted he is your favorite player. He couldn't stop a beach ball for the first 25 games of last season. He failed miserably in the Playoffs that same year. How is that play that is counter to what happened in this playoff?

He is maddeningly inconsistent. Has been his whole career, including large stretches of the last two seasons. He was terrible in the stretch leading up to this playoff as well.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby steelhammer on Tue May 15, 2012 2:45 pm

sil wrote:
steelhammer wrote:A cursory look at the other players in the NHL clearly reveal that Crosby/Malkin/Staal were not the worst centers in the playoffs.


Wait...why? Because we don't have stats to determine a conclusion based on comparrisons with other players of the same position? Malkin wasn't the worst forward, why?...because he scored a couple pretty goals? Malkin sure as hell didn't backcheck worth a damn, and Crosby didn't do much better in that department. I'm not saying it makes them the worst, but it appears that Jarret Stoll is making Malkin and Crosby look like clowns based on similar 'stats.' Claude Giroux scored 16 points in 6 games against us...which is historically high...which I guess makes him hands down the greatest skater of the playoffs. Drew Doughty, who'se club has lost one game so far, leads all remaining players with 14 giveaways...I guess that means he's the worst skater in the playoffs.

Obviously I jest...because I doubt anyone could be serious about using stats to determine who the best and worst players are...in any position since it's clear as day that MANY factors weigh into stats...not just the player putting them up.


The burden is on you to prove that the other players played worse than their peers, not on me to develop a negative proof for each of them.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Froggy on Tue May 15, 2012 2:55 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
Froggy wrote:i think my problem with the attack on fleury is that it COMPLETELY ignores his play for pretty much the entire last 2 years, and only focuses on the bad series against philly


Froggy, you admitted he is your favorite player. He couldn't stop a beach ball for the first 25 games of last season. He failed miserably in the Playoffs that same year. How is that play that is counter to what happened in this playoff?

He is maddeningly inconsistent. Has been his whole career, including large stretches of the last two seasons. He was terrible in the stretch leading up to this playoff as well.


25 games is just beyond a ridiculous exaggeration. Maybe like 10 games last year. And then all he did was basically carry this team on his back for half the year, get named team MVP, and almost get past Tampa in the playoffs despite having Tyler Kennedy as the team's most consistent offensive threat.

Oh, and then he followed THAT up by not giving up more than 3 goals in a game until like January.

Then the team hung him out to dry towards the end of the year,.and he played a few inexcusably bad games in the playoffs, and that somehow negates all the great stuff he did the two prior years? Please...

At least I admit my opinions aren't objective
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Malkamaniac on Tue May 15, 2012 3:04 pm

I actually think it was like 6-12 games where MAF stumbled and then has been consistent as all get out for the most part for the past two years. Playoffs, that's a different story.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby sil on Tue May 15, 2012 3:07 pm

steelhammer wrote:
sil wrote:
steelhammer wrote:A cursory look at the other players in the NHL clearly reveal that Crosby/Malkin/Staal were not the worst centers in the playoffs.


Wait...why? Because we don't have stats to determine a conclusion based on comparrisons with other players of the same position? Malkin wasn't the worst forward, why?...because he scored a couple pretty goals? Malkin sure as hell didn't backcheck worth a damn, and Crosby didn't do much better in that department. I'm not saying it makes them the worst, but it appears that Jarret Stoll is making Malkin and Crosby look like clowns based on similar 'stats.' Claude Giroux scored 16 points in 6 games against us...which is historically high...which I guess makes him hands down the greatest skater of the playoffs. Drew Doughty, who'se club has lost one game so far, leads all remaining players with 14 giveaways...I guess that means he's the worst skater in the playoffs.

Obviously I jest...because I doubt anyone could be serious about using stats to determine who the best and worst players are...in any position since it's clear as day that MANY factors weigh into stats...not just the player putting them up.


The burden is on you to prove that the other players played worse than their peers, not on me to develop a negative proof for each of them.


Not really, it's pretty obvious to me the whole team was lousy against Philly...I don't need a proof for that.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby The Snapshot on Tue May 15, 2012 11:26 pm

Froggy wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
Froggy wrote:i think my problem with the attack on fleury is that it COMPLETELY ignores his play for pretty much the entire last 2 years, and only focuses on the bad series against philly


Froggy, you admitted he is your favorite player. He couldn't stop a beach ball for the first 25 games of last season. He failed miserably in the Playoffs that same year. How is that play that is counter to what happened in this playoff?

He is maddeningly inconsistent. Has been his whole career, including large stretches of the last two seasons. He was terrible in the stretch leading up to this playoff as well.


25 games is just beyond a ridiculous exaggeration. Maybe like 10 games last year. And then all he did was basically carry this team on his back for half the year, get named team MVP, and almost get past Tampa in the playoffs despite having Tyler Kennedy as the team's most consistent offensive threat.

Oh, and then he followed THAT up by not giving up more than 3 goals in a game until like January.

Then the team hung him out to dry towards the end of the year,.and he played a few inexcusably bad games in the playoffs, and that somehow negates all the great stuff he did the two prior years? Please...

At least I admit my opinions aren't objective


Fleury was terrible to start last season, but you are correct he righted himself in game 17 of the season. Johnson actually played as many games as Fleury up until the 2nd week of November. Fleury had 1 win up to that point. That is a stretch of hockey that could have buried the Penguins playoff chances had Johnson not played the polar opposite to Fleury's comedy. In keeping with your defense of him, you see that as 10 terrible games, where I see it as 18, because he wasn't even good enough to play ahead of Johnson for the first 5 weeks of last season.

I actually like Fleury as a personality. As a goaltender he leaves a lot to be desired. He has not progressed much if at all since about his third or 4th season in the league.

You cite how he failed to give up more than 3 goals for a long stretch, but that only proves my point, because he has had some equally bad stretches in the league as a veteran goaltender.

I'm done talking about whether he is a top goalie or not, because it is so clear that he is not. He is overpaid, he is inconsistent and he has been a major factor in this team's playoff failures.

I don't even know where to start with the Tampa series statement. It shows your rose-colored glasses for him. He was not good, and was outplayed by Duane Roloson.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby MRandall25 on Tue May 15, 2012 11:47 pm

You really think the Tampa series was a good way to measure Fleury?
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Pens4Life on Wed May 16, 2012 2:09 am

Which goalie could replace MAF,if trade scenario happens? I dont see many upgrades right now,except Quick and Lundquist!
I would trade MAF for both of those guys,but LA and NYR wouldnt! Maybe Ryan Miller or Mike Smith? Certainly noooo to Luongo!
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby tfrizz on Wed May 16, 2012 7:31 am

Pens4Life wrote:Which goalie could replace MAF,if trade scenario happens? I dont see many upgrades right now,except Quick and Lundquist!
I would trade MAF for both of those guys,but LA and NYR wouldnt! Maybe Ryan Miller or Mike Smith? Certainly noooo to Luongo!


Honestly, I wouldn't touch Smith. He's played behind teams similar to the Pens before, and was A-W-F-U-L. In Phoenix, he's got the right mix of a great goalie coach and a team that puts a great deal of emphasis on defense.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Posterboy on Wed May 16, 2012 9:39 am

I don't think there's any way the Pens trade Fleury, nor should they IMO. Add some muscle and strength to maximize his natural skill and assist with his style of play, since he's a mix of butterfly and stand up reaction types. Get him a sports psychologist to help with the mental side. He's much too talented to give up on, especially when you have to factor what other options they have.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby ziggo on Wed May 16, 2012 11:17 am

Goaltenders win cups. Yeah, Doughty has given up the puck 18 times. And Scuderi a couple too. Right now Quick is the Conn Smyth. Smith got defence, except they get out played and give up tons of shots, every game. He is the surprise. Hawpe almost outplayed Lundqvist. Lundqvist is the regular season MVP. Brodeur. Well, I watched him make a save, way out of position with a hair on his ass.

The Pens came out and outhit, and outclassed the Flyers in the first period, in game one. They (the Flyers) come down and score an easy goal, when it seemed the Pens had it all going. You have to have lights out Goaltending, Paul Martin or no Paul Martin. Paul Martin didn't play in the last two games. I've never been a Fleury fan (wanted E Staal at the time). Gives up long range shots, doesn't seem to see high left glove shots at times. He seemed to be giving up less rebounds off his pads, but has regressed. Can't cover loose pucks in the crease at all.

So Sid just aint the same anymore. He comes out, lights the lamp right away. Tell me the Philly fans weren't soiling they're pants. Bylsma or Sid or anyone anint gonna throw him under the bus. Goaltending was bad.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Froggy on Wed May 16, 2012 11:31 am

No one here is saying that goaltending wasn't a big problem in that series.

The "pro-Fleury" comments have pretty much been either;
-everyone stunk, so why single him out?

Or

-3 bad games shouldn't negate almost 2 straight years of exceptional play
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby The Snapshot on Wed May 16, 2012 11:53 am

MRandall25 wrote:You really think the Tampa series was a good way to measure Fleury?


Goalies are easy to measure, so yes it was. He lost to a 41 year-old goalie who faced a lot more rubber than him.

No matter what happens in a game, a goal is either stoppable or it is not. Some goalies, including Fleury, make the impossible stop. A good goalie make both. In that series, Fleury did not make all of the stops you would expect.

That is his problem, and his fanbase just can't see past some of the incredible stops he makes. The issue is that he doesn't make enough of the ones you expect, and he tends to let these ones in at the most inopportune times in games - particularly in the last three playoffs.

I'm already on record as saying I don't want him traded. I just want a backup that could plausibly be our starter someday soon, and I want the Pens organization to figure out how to get him to stop making rookie mistakes and having concentration lapses.

My responses to the people who want to ignore all of his shortcomings because other aspects of the team are not perfect either is that one has both everything AND nothing to do with the other. By that I mean that goalies can pick up a team, and Fleury has not done that for them in the Playoffs for quite a while and yet he has admittedly done it quite often during each regular season.

When he won his Cup, he picked the team up in Game 6 and both played well in Game 7. That is a realistic expectation every season for a $5M former 1st overall pick.

Could the Pens have played better in front of him this playoff? Yes. Could he have elevated their play by elevating his? Definitely, but he didn't. When the puck is on the opponent's stick and he shoots - regardless of whether a defender was on him or not - that shot is either stoppable or it is not. In almost every case, Lundquist, Quick, Smith and even Bordeur has made these stops. The first two particularly make a lot that you would think are not stoppable as well.

All I expect from Fleury is more. I have issues with other aspects of the Pens game, but that doesn't change the evaluation of Fleury at all because Goaltending is black and white. You can't survive goals your goalie should have had.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby The Snapshot on Wed May 16, 2012 12:04 pm

Froggy wrote:No one here is saying that goaltending wasn't a big problem in that series.

The "pro-Fleury" comments have pretty much been either;
-everyone stunk, so why single him out?

Or

-3 bad games shouldn't negate almost 2 straight years of exceptional play


Both pro-Fleury camps are dead wrong.

If Goaltending is a problem you simply cannot win. That is why the Flyers NEVER win.

They both also ignore the impact goalies need to have in the early rounds when a team is struggling in a short series to get going. A three game losing streak in the regular season is a blip. In the playoffs it is death. Goalies do not have the luxury of struggling early, but they can afford a team a chance to.

Do you think Fleury or any other Penguins play for regular season stats? That is all we have to show for the last three seasons. The Pens in my mind had a legit shot to win the Cup 2 years ago. They also, after watching these playoffs play out, had a chance this year had they sorted things out in Round 1 somehow. I firmly believe they could handle any of the teams left after round 1.

I just don't get this whole "two years of exceptional play" stuff. He has played very well in strecthes and poorly in others during those two years, and then failed in the playoffs.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Fast B on Wed May 16, 2012 12:06 pm

Your axe could probably cut through a Buick at this point. Good grief.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby sil on Wed May 16, 2012 12:27 pm

"Both pro-Fleury camps are dead wrong."

The only logical statement to follow this would be...

"And my camp is the winner! Nah-nah-nah-nah-naaaah-naaaaah!"
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby Sarcastic on Wed May 16, 2012 12:27 pm

ziggo wrote:You have to have lights out Goaltending, Paul Martin or no Paul Martin. Paul Martin didn't play in the last two games. I've never been a Fleury fan (wanted E Staal at the time). Gives up long range shots, doesn't seem to see high left glove shots at times. He seemed to be giving up less rebounds off his pads, but has regressed. Can't cover loose pucks in the crease at all.


I think a good question to ask is if Fleury has improved - stayed even - or regressed in his last few years and I honestly don't know the answer. At times, he looks like the best goalie in the game, then you look and he loses his focus allowing something silly to go in.

I still say he needs a steady group of defensemen and that is maybe the biggest problem on the team... we can add some kind of a better system to that as well, and I still do like him as #1, but he needs to be more steady himself like Lundqvist.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby sil on Wed May 16, 2012 12:30 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
ziggo wrote:You have to have lights out Goaltending, Paul Martin or no Paul Martin. Paul Martin didn't play in the last two games. I've never been a Fleury fan (wanted E Staal at the time). Gives up long range shots, doesn't seem to see high left glove shots at times. He seemed to be giving up less rebounds off his pads, but has regressed. Can't cover loose pucks in the crease at all.


I think a good question to ask is if Fleury has improved - stayed even - or regressed in his last few years and I honestly don't know the answer. At times, he looks like the best goalie in the game, then you look and he loses his focus allowing something silly to go in.

I still say he needs a steady group of defensemen and that is maybe the biggest problem on the team... we can add some kind of a better system to that as well, and I still do like him as #1, but he needs to be steady like Lundqvist.


He needs to (A) play better and more confidently in the playoffs, and (B) have a team in front of him committed to playing both ends. And some (stress that word) of A will come from B. If B doesn't happen...I can't see A happening either.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby columbia on Wed May 16, 2012 12:31 pm

I spent a lot of time worrying during the Flyers series, that MAF would give up a goal on the most routine of shots.
Setting aside my Pens allegiance, I've haven't had that feeling about any of the goalies in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.

The Pens (as a whole) were terrible, but Fleury just **** the bed; another post-season like this and he's in Luongo territory.
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Re: Marc Andre Fleury

Postby ziggo on Wed May 16, 2012 12:31 pm

Are you speaking for everyone or yourself ? Just wonderin LOL. Have the Coyotes played this steller game in front of Smith. Have the Kings in front of Quick. No . People say, oh if we still had Scuderi. He didn't look all that shutdown. The four teams left, have goalies playing out of their mind. Two are expected, ones a HOF and one not. I'm going with Quick and Lundqvist. Brodeur is a not so wildcard. That cat is amazing, plus I've always said Kovalchuk can dominate with that shot. it comes down to the goalies. It always does.
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