Watching NYR/NJD and..

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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby mikey287 on Sun May 20, 2012 2:58 pm

Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby JoseCuervo on Sun May 20, 2012 3:08 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Giving him a $5 million contract and his play here (or in our system) is a different story.


Which leads to: is it the player or the system? A good coach is able to adapt their system to their players' strengths.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby DesertPenguin on Sun May 20, 2012 4:10 pm

mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...


That isn't necessarily a bad thing. We can use a great skating defenseman with a good stick that can move the puck but is light on physicality. You could actually describe Niskanen in a similar fashion. What we can't use is a formerly elite defenseman that now looks so lost and unsure of himself and what he's supposed to be doing that he's a half second slow to do anything. He needs a sports psychologist as much as Fleury does, or maybe just a new coach and a different system (here or elsewhere).
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun May 20, 2012 4:12 pm

owtahear wrote:
shmenguin wrote:people are generally too hard on martin. it's not worth singling him out for being terrible in the playoffs. practically the whole team was utterly lost. but generally, he's one of those defensemen whose merits require explanation from hockey geeks (that's a complimentary term). in a vacuum, that's fine. there's value in a player like that. but it's not good enough when you factor in his salary by itself and how it relates to the cap and the salary/quality of his replacements.

on this team, he needs to be a standout player if he's making that kind of money.



I have nothing against Martin. He was a really good defenseman and at the time, looked like a great signing by Shero. But with the emergence of Niskanen, Lovejoy and Engelland, and Depres, Strait, Morrow and Harrington waiting on an opening, if we could trade Martin to say Minnesota (his home) for a 4th rd choice I would do it in a heartbeat to clear cap space and clear room for some of the up and coming d-men.


I personally think if I was a GM I would love to stick the Pens with these contracts (Martin, Mikalek and Orpik) for the next 3 years. Apparently the league is telling teams to go ahead with the assumption of a $70 million cap which would ease the pain but whatever it is, it is not working for us.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby TheHammer24 on Sun May 20, 2012 4:58 pm

I can't believe there is a thread about the NYR series in which someone immediately points out that Paul Martin would be bad. Wow, just wow. :face:
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby brwi on Sun May 20, 2012 10:06 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.


No, I don't, since he missed the last year as a Devil with injuries. Before that, he hadn't shown he was anything like stellar, but neither had Dan Hamhuis and both got the big $$$ in free agency. As far as the US Olympic team goes, he didn't get close to the ice when the game was on the line because Ryan Suter was out there instead, a much better dman in all areas.

d-men have become a terrible ROI in the salary cap era and J-Bo and Paul Martin are right at the top of the list of overpaid UFA dmen. Frankly, Jbo is better than Martin and a better ROI. Martin is a tweener d-men that is an anchor-drag on a team hitting the salary cap wall.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby mikey287 on Sun May 20, 2012 10:09 pm

Define tweener?
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby MRandall25 on Sun May 20, 2012 10:29 pm

brwi wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.


No, I don't, since he missed the last year as a Devil with injuries. Before that, he hadn't shown he was anything like stellar, but neither had Dan Hamhuis and both got the big $$$ in free agency. As far as the US Olympic team goes, he didn't get close to the ice when the game was on the line because Ryan Suter was out there instead, a much better dman in all areas.

d-men have become a terrible ROI in the salary cap era and J-Bo and Paul Martin are right at the top of the list of overpaid UFA dmen. Frankly, Jbo is better than Martin and a better ROI. Martin is a tweener d-men that is an anchor-drag on a team hitting the salary cap wall.


He was hurt for the Olympics...
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Nizzy on Mon May 21, 2012 5:12 am

Thanks everyone for the good discussion, the point I was trying to make was:

You can go ahead and trade Jordan Staal to Carolina, so he can be 2nd line C and with his Big Bro, it would guarantee Sutter+ a package coming back but it really doesn't matter at this moment because:

1. Martin needs off this team, he needs to go play on the Wild or some dumb regular season style team
2. Bylsma needs to go and get more experience he isn't good enough to lead us to another cup/change up his system on the fly yet he's been getting outcoached noticeably.
3. Shero needs to find out the CBA before making any moves to see what type of NHL it will be going forward

I'd rather keep Staal for this currently style of NHL hockey. Him and Tangradi on that 3rd line, big body players could do great things together with a real coach giving Rookies a chance.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon May 21, 2012 8:03 am

Nizzy wrote:Thanks everyone for the good discussion, the point I was trying to make was:

You can go ahead and trade Jordan Staal to Carolina, so he can be 2nd line C and with his Big Bro, it would guarantee Sutter+ a package coming back but it really doesn't matter at this moment because:

1. Martin needs off this team, he needs to go play on the Wild or some dumb regular season style team
2. Bylsma needs to go and get more experience he isn't good enough to lead us to another cup/change up his system on the fly yet he's been getting outcoached noticeably.
3. Shero needs to find out the CBA before making any moves to see what type of NHL it will be going forward

I'd rather keep Staal for this currently style of NHL hockey. Him and Tangradi on that 3rd line, big body players could do great things together with a real coach giving Rookies a chance.


Agreed but I think a few more numbers should be added:

4. Probably at least 3 of our defensive guys need to go (including Orpik). Totally exposed for their lack of lateral quickness in the playoffs. Sure part of it was how the overall team was playing but beyond the PK teams could just cycle us all day. Ill say it again but with the way HCDB's system is played I think him and GMRS out smarted themselves by getting the d-men they did and putting together the top 6 like they did. When in reality one puck mover like Letang is good with the forwards we have and we really need more stay at home solid positioning d-men like Eaton, Scuder if we are going to be an aggressive team.

Think about this: some of the players they have signed to fit our system or to be puck movers ultimately fail here. Sydor was the same as Martin. Even though he was really before HCDB with Sid, Malkin, Staal up front we need to balance the team out regardless of the system. Which they had when we won the cup. We partially moved on from that on our own (FA signings) and also Kunitz, Cooke, Adams got older and Kennedy got worse.

5. Overhaul to a point on our forward wingers. This may sound strange but we need more guys in "the idea" of what Tyler Kennedy is supposed to be, but better if that makes sense. We need more guys bringing what we all though he was going to bring here for a long time running. I keep going back to our cup run. Talbot (how he played in the playoffs) on the 2nd line was perfect. With Malkin and Crosby up front - a younger Kunitz, Talbot/Kennedy/Cooke we had 4 guys who cycled, went into the corner, got pucks, hit the d-men and so forth. Very tough to play against.

6. General thought: I think with the cap and parity you are seeing teams needing to be more system driven like the NFL. In by that I mean in the past in the NHL if you were good, you were good. End of story. Sure a team needed a big winger or speed could try to add that but its not like a good player would fail in any system.

Now its like drafting a 4-3 DT to play 3-4 DE. You better be sure he can handle that role. Warren Sapp was one of the best in the game and when shifted to a DE in a 3-4 was average. I love watching teams in the NFL switch defensive fronts and then struggle for years (see: Browns or KC Chiefts) because it takes so long for the personnel to catch up. One of the main reasons the Steelers are competitive every year. Maybe it is tilting just a bit that way in hockey too.

Or I could be wrong and our system just stinks but food for thought.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby no name on Mon May 21, 2012 8:18 am

Not a Martin or Nisky fan, we need more defensive defencemen on this team. Ulf and Kjell where are you when we need you.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Luckybreak on Mon May 21, 2012 10:24 am

mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...


Will Harrington have Martin's cap hit? I know lots of people are hating on Martin's style of play but if he were on an entry level contract my bet is 65% less pitchfork wielding villagers chasing him out of town...

As said above, a more balanced spread of speed, size, skill etc would allow the Pens to deal with different types of teams more effectively. The 'puck moving clones' are not working in this system (sad considering they were targetted as an ideal fit).
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Jasmine on Mon May 21, 2012 10:32 am

Nizzy wrote:Watching the NYR/NJD game today and there's a few things I'm noticing:

1. Paul Martin - He would get absolutely destroyed and embarrassed. Every puck chip along the borders, you have a split second to react before they finish the check. Martin would get hit every time he touches the puck. He's slow with his decision making and was terrible getting the puck out of the zone. He would be a turn over machine. He wouldn't be able to move anyone away from Fleury in the crease. I honestly don't know what Shero saw in this guy. He's straight up Soff. He needs to be gone and it makes us better even if we get NOTHING in return. He possibility of Bortuzzo or Strait, 2 guys that were drafted, worked their way through the system might be gone because of his scrub Martin sickens me.

2. Dan Bylsma - Watching Tortorella, while I'm not supporting him at all, actually looks like he's coaching. He's watching every little thing and making adjustments. He's getting on guys INSTANTLY when they make a mistake. Not just letting it go, thinking all the veterans are professionals and can handle. They need reminded and Tors doesn't hesitate. He lets his young guys play UNTIL they falter. Krieder would have never been this great for Pittsburgh as a rookie in the playoffs because he never would have gotten the chance under DB. Bylsma just standing behind the bench with his arms crossed. Doesn't call a timeout until the score is 5-7 with what 90 seconds left? Unreal Joke.

3. Hooking, Holding, Obstruction, Embellishment, etc - This isn't even the same game (NHL) from even 2008. The Red Wings always had obstruction however I can't believe how much Hooking/Holding isn't being called. The off season meetings for the GMs will be interesting. Ray Shero came in here and wanted a Big Body NA team. He won a cup with Bylsma and since then ditched that model and went with more of puck moving, smaller teams. The Penguins just seem so much smaller and softer compared to NYD/NJD/LAK... The Current Penguins system/team that is build isn't designed to win the way the Refs are reffing the game these playoffs. Regular season defense is different than Playoff Defense. Hal Gill was nothing by a pylon in the regular season, sucked big time at times. However in the playoffs he was a brick wall that smacked guys like Holmstrom around. We haven't had that since 2009 cup.

-You don't lose 3 playoff series to lower seeds in a row then trade a 23 year old centerpiece of your team (Staal) when he lead your team in playoff goals. You get rid of the first time NHL Head coach who walked into a complete team and let them loose to win the cup before other teams realized his "one trick pony get to our game style". Watching some of these other coaches closely in tough games and its so easy to realize Bylsma's experience is so low and he has no idea what to do in many situations.

-Martin is just bad and Shero should feel Bad for signing him.

-Going into next season I'm not expecting anything past the 2nd round until these 2 are gone. Shero won't do anything big until the CBA is confirmed/GM meetings set the rules again on how to build a team. (Which is smart) The reason this team has been failing is because they've been building a 2005-2008 style team where Hooking actually gets called. The Refs having been Reffing as its pre-lockout.

:thumb: to all of the above. (Not sure how much my opinion counts other than I've watched/listened to 25+ years of Penguins hockey without missing a minute.)
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Defence21 on Mon May 21, 2012 11:00 am

Luckybreak wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...


Will Harrington have Martin's cap hit? I know lots of people are hating on Martin's style of play but if he were on an entry level contract my bet is 65% less pitchfork wielding villagers chasing him out of town...

As said above, a more balanced spread of speed, size, skill etc would allow the Pens to deal with different types of teams more effectively. The 'puck moving clones' are not working in this system (sad considering they were targetted as an ideal fit).

Pittsburgh fans in general don't like players who lack physicality. It's how it works here. I strongly disagree that there would be less people chasing him out of town if his contract was smaller. He might not be blamed for everything the way he is now -- but people still would want nothing to do with him in a Penguins' uniform.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 21, 2012 11:44 am

about 1% of all martin criticisms are related to his lack of hitting.

there are several people who have called him a nancy when he goes back to play a puck with a forechecker chasing him, but frustration with that is hardly specific to any fan base.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby MRandall25 on Mon May 21, 2012 12:20 pm

Defence21 wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...


Will Harrington have Martin's cap hit? I know lots of people are hating on Martin's style of play but if he were on an entry level contract my bet is 65% less pitchfork wielding villagers chasing him out of town...

As said above, a more balanced spread of speed, size, skill etc would allow the Pens to deal with different types of teams more effectively. The 'puck moving clones' are not working in this system (sad considering they were targetted as an ideal fit).

Pittsburgh fans in general don't like players who lack physicality. It's how it works here. I strongly disagree that there would be less people chasing him out of town if his contract was smaller. He might not be blamed for everything the way he is now -- but people still would want nothing to do with him in a Penguins' uniform.


See Goligoski, Alex.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Luckybreak on Mon May 21, 2012 1:14 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...


Will Harrington have Martin's cap hit? I know lots of people are hating on Martin's style of play but if he were on an entry level contract my bet is 65% less pitchfork wielding villagers chasing him out of town...

As said above, a more balanced spread of speed, size, skill etc would allow the Pens to deal with different types of teams more effectively. The 'puck moving clones' are not working in this system (sad considering they were targetted as an ideal fit).

Pittsburgh fans in general don't like players who lack physicality. It's how it works here. I strongly disagree that there would be less people chasing him out of town if his contract was smaller. He might not be blamed for everything the way he is now -- but people still would want nothing to do with him in a Penguins' uniform.


See Goligoski, Alex.


Yeah I realise it's not a popular style, but ask any fanbase and the majority would prefer a guy who hits, nothing more than human nature. It gets people excited even when not the correct play to make - see Orpik, Brooks.

My point is that Martin would be less reviled for his lack of physicality (and offensive production etc) were he not taking $5mil. If paired with a Bryan Allen type whilst implementing a different system Martin could be awesome, but his salary prohibits Shero from such moves, not to mention the horror of losing key players such as Staal.

Unless the system changes a trade would benefit both parties greatly IMO, the same might be said for Michalek.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 21, 2012 1:42 pm

people didn't like goligoski in his last season here because he made glaring mistakes with the puck. people don't like martin because he makes glaring mistakes with the puck. if 1996 sergei zubov was on this team, no one would give a crap that he wasn't physical. if 2000's brian rafalski was on the team - same deal.

lunatics aside, people fully understand that guys like this aren't expected to be physical. it's such a cop out to use physicality as a key contributor in the makings of a whipping boy. a terrible turnover or flubbing pucks on the point carry so much more influence to the average viewer than shying away from a hit. the physicality thing is lazy reasoning.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Gaucho on Mon May 21, 2012 1:47 pm

Did people like Larry Murphy?
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 21, 2012 1:49 pm

Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?


did they? i was a kid when he was here. i assume he was popular. it's pretty easy to like a guy who does his job well.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby MRandall25 on Mon May 21, 2012 3:39 pm

Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?


I liked him...

in NHL 95. Too young to remember then.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby KG on Mon May 21, 2012 3:56 pm

Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?


I was a big Murph fan. They needed one more of Murph on the power play after they dealt Coffey IMO.

Remember Patrick Neaton and Ian Moran were supposed to be the power play QB? :shock:
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby llipgh2 on Mon May 21, 2012 4:05 pm

Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?


In Pittsburgh and Detroit - Yes. In Washington, no.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon May 21, 2012 4:09 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
brwi wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.


No, I don't, since he missed the last year as a Devil with injuries. Before that, he hadn't shown he was anything like stellar, but neither had Dan Hamhuis and both got the big $$$ in free agency. As far as the US Olympic team goes, he didn't get close to the ice when the game was on the line because Ryan Suter was out there instead, a much better dman in all areas.

d-men have become a terrible ROI in the salary cap era and J-Bo and Paul Martin are right at the top of the list of overpaid UFA dmen. Frankly, Jbo is better than Martin and a better ROI. Martin is a tweener d-men that is an anchor-drag on a team hitting the salary cap wall.


He was hurt for the Olympics...

And I think the Orpik/JJ pairing was the shutdown pairing for the US
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby pugilist13 on Mon May 21, 2012 4:18 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?


did they? i was a kid when he was here. i assume he was popular. it's pretty easy to like a guy who does his job well.

Yep, he was liked. He was pretty much one dimentional early in his career,especially in Wash and Minny. I wasn't overly excited when they acquired him. The guy turned into a very solid two way D man. His style was that of a puck mover. Always made the right decision in his own end. Wasn't physical but didnt shy away either. Proof positive that you dont have to put guys in the 3rd row to be appreciated in Pittsburgh.
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