Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Giving him a $5 million contract and his play here (or in our system) is a different story.
mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...
owtahear wrote:shmenguin wrote:people are generally too hard on martin. it's not worth singling him out for being terrible in the playoffs. practically the whole team was utterly lost. but generally, he's one of those defensemen whose merits require explanation from hockey geeks (that's a complimentary term). in a vacuum, that's fine. there's value in a player like that. but it's not good enough when you factor in his salary by itself and how it relates to the cap and the salary/quality of his replacements.
on this team, he needs to be a standout player if he's making that kind of money.
I have nothing against Martin. He was a really good defenseman and at the time, looked like a great signing by Shero. But with the emergence of Niskanen, Lovejoy and Engelland, and Depres, Strait, Morrow and Harrington waiting on an opening, if we could trade Martin to say Minnesota (his home) for a 4th rd choice I would do it in a heartbeat to clear cap space and clear room for some of the up and coming d-men.
MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.
brwi wrote:MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.
No, I don't, since he missed the last year as a Devil with injuries. Before that, he hadn't shown he was anything like stellar, but neither had Dan Hamhuis and both got the big $$$ in free agency. As far as the US Olympic team goes, he didn't get close to the ice when the game was on the line because Ryan Suter was out there instead, a much better dman in all areas.
d-men have become a terrible ROI in the salary cap era and J-Bo and Paul Martin are right at the top of the list of overpaid UFA dmen. Frankly, Jbo is better than Martin and a better ROI. Martin is a tweener d-men that is an anchor-drag on a team hitting the salary cap wall.
Nizzy wrote:Thanks everyone for the good discussion, the point I was trying to make was:
You can go ahead and trade Jordan Staal to Carolina, so he can be 2nd line C and with his Big Bro, it would guarantee Sutter+ a package coming back but it really doesn't matter at this moment because:
1. Martin needs off this team, he needs to go play on the Wild or some dumb regular season style team
2. Bylsma needs to go and get more experience he isn't good enough to lead us to another cup/change up his system on the fly yet he's been getting outcoached noticeably.
3. Shero needs to find out the CBA before making any moves to see what type of NHL it will be going forward
I'd rather keep Staal for this currently style of NHL hockey. Him and Tangradi on that 3rd line, big body players could do great things together with a real coach giving Rookies a chance.
mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...
Nizzy wrote:Watching the NYR/NJD game today and there's a few things I'm noticing:
1. Paul Martin - He would get absolutely destroyed and embarrassed. Every puck chip along the borders, you have a split second to react before they finish the check. Martin would get hit every time he touches the puck. He's slow with his decision making and was terrible getting the puck out of the zone. He would be a turn over machine. He wouldn't be able to move anyone away from Fleury in the crease. I honestly don't know what Shero saw in this guy. He's straight up Soff. He needs to be gone and it makes us better even if we get NOTHING in return. He possibility of Bortuzzo or Strait, 2 guys that were drafted, worked their way through the system might be gone because of his scrub Martin sickens me.
2. Dan Bylsma - Watching Tortorella, while I'm not supporting him at all, actually looks like he's coaching. He's watching every little thing and making adjustments. He's getting on guys INSTANTLY when they make a mistake. Not just letting it go, thinking all the veterans are professionals and can handle. They need reminded and Tors doesn't hesitate. He lets his young guys play UNTIL they falter. Krieder would have never been this great for Pittsburgh as a rookie in the playoffs because he never would have gotten the chance under DB. Bylsma just standing behind the bench with his arms crossed. Doesn't call a timeout until the score is 5-7 with what 90 seconds left? Unreal Joke.
3. Hooking, Holding, Obstruction, Embellishment, etc - This isn't even the same game (NHL) from even 2008. The Red Wings always had obstruction however I can't believe how much Hooking/Holding isn't being called. The off season meetings for the GMs will be interesting. Ray Shero came in here and wanted a Big Body NA team. He won a cup with Bylsma and since then ditched that model and went with more of puck moving, smaller teams. The Penguins just seem so much smaller and softer compared to NYD/NJD/LAK... The Current Penguins system/team that is build isn't designed to win the way the Refs are reffing the game these playoffs. Regular season defense is different than Playoff Defense. Hal Gill was nothing by a pylon in the regular season, sucked big time at times. However in the playoffs he was a brick wall that smacked guys like Holmstrom around. We haven't had that since 2009 cup.
-You don't lose 3 playoff series to lower seeds in a row then trade a 23 year old centerpiece of your team (Staal) when he lead your team in playoff goals. You get rid of the first time NHL Head coach who walked into a complete team and let them loose to win the cup before other teams realized his "one trick pony get to our game style". Watching some of these other coaches closely in tough games and its so easy to realize Bylsma's experience is so low and he has no idea what to do in many situations.
-Martin is just bad and Shero should feel Bad for signing him.
-Going into next season I'm not expecting anything past the 2nd round until these 2 are gone. Shero won't do anything big until the CBA is confirmed/GM meetings set the rules again on how to build a team. (Which is smart) The reason this team has been failing is because they've been building a 2005-2008 style team where Hooking actually gets called. The Refs having been Reffing as its pre-lockout.
Luckybreak wrote:mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...
Will Harrington have Martin's cap hit? I know lots of people are hating on Martin's style of play but if he were on an entry level contract my bet is 65% less pitchfork wielding villagers chasing him out of town...
As said above, a more balanced spread of speed, size, skill etc would allow the Pens to deal with different types of teams more effectively. The 'puck moving clones' are not working in this system (sad considering they were targetted as an ideal fit).
Defence21 wrote:Luckybreak wrote:mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...
Will Harrington have Martin's cap hit? I know lots of people are hating on Martin's style of play but if he were on an entry level contract my bet is 65% less pitchfork wielding villagers chasing him out of town...
As said above, a more balanced spread of speed, size, skill etc would allow the Pens to deal with different types of teams more effectively. The 'puck moving clones' are not working in this system (sad considering they were targetted as an ideal fit).
Pittsburgh fans in general don't like players who lack physicality. It's how it works here. I strongly disagree that there would be less people chasing him out of town if his contract was smaller. He might not be blamed for everything the way he is now -- but people still would want nothing to do with him in a Penguins' uniform.
MRandall25 wrote:Defence21 wrote:Luckybreak wrote:mikey287 wrote:Wait until people realize that Harrington plays a pretty similar game to Martin, I hope he gets hyped up a little more first though. That is gonna kick some people where it hurts I'm thinking...
Will Harrington have Martin's cap hit? I know lots of people are hating on Martin's style of play but if he were on an entry level contract my bet is 65% less pitchfork wielding villagers chasing him out of town...
As said above, a more balanced spread of speed, size, skill etc would allow the Pens to deal with different types of teams more effectively. The 'puck moving clones' are not working in this system (sad considering they were targetted as an ideal fit).
Pittsburgh fans in general don't like players who lack physicality. It's how it works here. I strongly disagree that there would be less people chasing him out of town if his contract was smaller. He might not be blamed for everything the way he is now -- but people still would want nothing to do with him in a Penguins' uniform.
See Goligoski, Alex.
Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?
Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?
Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?
Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?
MRandall25 wrote:brwi wrote:MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.
No, I don't, since he missed the last year as a Devil with injuries. Before that, he hadn't shown he was anything like stellar, but neither had Dan Hamhuis and both got the big $$$ in free agency. As far as the US Olympic team goes, he didn't get close to the ice when the game was on the line because Ryan Suter was out there instead, a much better dman in all areas.
d-men have become a terrible ROI in the salary cap era and J-Bo and Paul Martin are right at the top of the list of overpaid UFA dmen. Frankly, Jbo is better than Martin and a better ROI. Martin is a tweener d-men that is an anchor-drag on a team hitting the salary cap wall.
He was hurt for the Olympics...
shmenguin wrote:Gaucho wrote:Did people like Larry Murphy?
did they? i was a kid when he was here. i assume he was popular. it's pretty easy to like a guy who does his job well.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests