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Pavel Bure wrote:MRandall25 wrote:brwi wrote:MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.
No, I don't, since he missed the last year as a Devil with injuries. Before that, he hadn't shown he was anything like stellar, but neither had Dan Hamhuis and both got the big $$$ in free agency. As far as the US Olympic team goes, he didn't get close to the ice when the game was on the line because Ryan Suter was out there instead, a much better dman in all areas.
d-men have become a terrible ROI in the salary cap era and J-Bo and Paul Martin are right at the top of the list of overpaid UFA dmen. Frankly, Jbo is better than Martin and a better ROI. Martin is a tweener d-men that is an anchor-drag on a team hitting the salary cap wall.
He was hurt for the Olympics...
And I think the Orpik/JJ pairing was the shutdown pairing for the US
penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Nizzy wrote:Thanks everyone for the good discussion, the point I was trying to make was:
.
Agreed but I think a few more numbers should be added:
4. Probably at least 3 of our defensive guys need to go (including Orpik).
5. Overhaul to a point on our forward wingers.
6. General thought: I think with the cap and parity you are seeing teams needing to be more system driven like the NFL. In by that I mean in the past in the NHL if you were good, you were good. End of story. Sure a team needed a big winger or speed could try to add that but its not like a good player would fail in any system.
Or I could be wrong and our system just stinks but food for thought.
shmenguin wrote:people didn't like goligoski in his last season here because he made glaring mistakes with the puck. people don't like martin because he makes glaring mistakes with the puck. if 1996 sergei zubov was on this team, no one would give a crap that he wasn't physical. if 2000's brian rafalski was on the team - same deal.
lunatics aside, people fully understand that guys like this aren't expected to be physical. it's such a cop out to use physicality as a key contributor in the makings of a whipping boy. a terrible turnover or flubbing pucks on the point carry so much more influence to the average viewer than shying away from a hit. the physicality thing is lazy reasoning.
KG wrote:penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.
Agreed penny. If Martin is not going to be a top penalty killer or on the top power play unit, then for what he is being paid, the Pens don't need him...
When Martin first signed I thought he was going to be a top penalty killer and "replace Gonchar" on the power play. Not that he was ever going to be a 15 goal scorer. I was expecting a 10-40-50 type of production.
He's just been bad and doesn't fit in...move him...
Staggy wrote:KG wrote:penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.
Agreed penny. If Martin is not going to be a top penalty killer or on the top power play unit, then for what he is being paid, the Pens don't need him...
When Martin first signed I thought he was going to be a top penalty killer and "replace Gonchar" on the power play. Not that he was ever going to be a 15 goal scorer. I was expecting a 10-40-50 type of production.
He's just been bad and doesn't fit in...move him...
Well that's more your fault rather than Martin's. He's never been that kind of player and expecting him to be will just leave you disappointed. His career highs in New Jersey were 5 goals and 33 points. Expecting him to double his goal output and have a 17 point jump in points is asking way too much from a defensive defenseman. I mean damn, a 50 point season would have him 6th in the league in defenseman scoring this year. Those are ridiculous expectations for a guy that's not known as being an offensive defenseman nor is he paid to be one.
If you want to criticize Martin for his defensive play then that's valid, but hopping on him for not being a top ~5 point producer for his position is insane.
Luckybreak wrote:These are areas I would hope result in greater playoff success rather than scoring titles!
sil wrote:Luckybreak wrote:These are areas I would hope result in greater playoff success rather than scoring titles!
I think this relies on our star forwards (all of them) backchecking and playing defensive hockey as much as (if not more than) our D-core being improved.
Nizzy wrote:BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Nizzy wrote:Thanks everyone for the good discussion, the point I was trying to make was:
.
Agreed but I think a few more numbers should be added:
4. Probably at least 3 of our defensive guys need to go (including Orpik).
5. Overhaul to a point on our forward wingers.
6. General thought: I think with the cap and parity you are seeing teams needing to be more system driven like the NFL. In by that I mean in the past in the NHL if you were good, you were good. End of story. Sure a team needed a big winger or speed could try to add that but its not like a good player would fail in any system.
Or I could be wrong and our system just stinks but food for thought.
4. Agree about your assessment of Brooks Orpik. However I feel like he had a bad season, but he shouldn't be moved after that. I say give him the full offseason to regroup and see how he is next season. If he still looks as bad or even worse then consider moving him then. He's put to much into this team/organization to dump him after a sub-par season.
5. I Think Shero is going to let the contracts of Cooke/Kennedy/Dupuis finish out then maybe rebuild with other wingers. I agree though need to get younger on the wing with some new blood.
6. I think the main problem here was that Shero was building a team for the 2005-08 style of NHL where these quicker puck moving players could florish with their skill. Now its back to the clutch and grabbing and bigger body players (maybe some with less talent) are excelling.
Is that really Sheros fault? Won a cup with a certain style that fit the NHL and kept building around, but the game/rules changed again..
good post thx!
tfrizz wrote:As always, the teams committed to winning (blocking shots, etc) are the ones winning. The Pens didn't do it.
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Well, I agree to a point - but again a team beat us in a wide open style and beat us badly so I think this team as currently constructed is just not that good. The thing is when we won the cup we had Eaton, Orpik, Scuderi and Gill. Then Gonchar and Letang who were both very capable on defense. We had Talbot on the 2nd line. Everyone says Philly was built to beat us and we could beat anyone else in the conference. But at the same time we say the style has changed and that is the problem - but the other teams play less wide open than the Flyers. And have goalies.
My point is that I think loading up on defense/grinders is even more smart in a wide open (or a better description would be attacking) style, if it was 3 years ago with this teams and the rules were more lacks we would have gotten throttled even worse.
I think the issue is that GMRS and HCDB switched gears with players they thought they needed to fit their system, yet that very system (as long as you have 2 top flight centers and Kris Letang) call for a load up on defense and grinders to balance out the attacking style. They were fine as previously constructed but probably just needed one top flight winger.
In general I think the league is less wide open but not as clutch and grab as people think. Its more of a collapsing defensive system. As far as the Pens I dont blame GMRS for keeping TK and Cooke around, or for Kunitz having a bad playoff. Or Adams getting old. Or Orpik apparently losing a step. Those things happen sometimes and you have to move on, you cant win the cup every year. But the other signings were his fault all the way.
We need fresh blood on the wings. Now that we have Neal we need to round out our forwards with grit.
Nizzy wrote:BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Well, I agree to a point - but again a team beat us in a wide open style and beat us badly so I think this team as currently constructed is just not that good. The thing is when we won the cup we had Eaton, Orpik, Scuderi and Gill. Then Gonchar and Letang who were both very capable on defense. We had Talbot on the 2nd line. Everyone says Philly was built to beat us and we could beat anyone else in the conference. But at the same time we say the style has changed and that is the problem - but the other teams play less wide open than the Flyers. And have goalies.
My point is that I think loading up on defense/grinders is even more smart in a wide open (or a better description would be attacking) style, if it was 3 years ago with this teams and the rules were more lacks we would have gotten throttled even worse.
I think the issue is that GMRS and HCDB switched gears with players they thought they needed to fit their system, yet that very system (as long as you have 2 top flight centers and Kris Letang) call for a load up on defense and grinders to balance out the attacking style. They were fine as previously constructed but probably just needed one top flight winger.
In general I think the league is less wide open but not as clutch and grab as people think. Its more of a collapsing defensive system. As far as the Pens I dont blame GMRS for keeping TK and Cooke around, or for Kunitz having a bad playoff. Or Adams getting old. Or Orpik apparently losing a step. Those things happen sometimes and you have to move on, you cant win the cup every year. But the other signings were his fault all the way.
We need fresh blood on the wings. Now that we have Neal we need to round out our forwards with grit.
Too start, once again you make some great basic points. I agree the overall team/secondary guys just weren't good. There simply was no team defense at all.
Here's the thing about the Flyers/them beating us/supposed to beat everyone else in the conference. The Flyers and Lavs made a gameplan to take out our system. What was the answer? Nothing. Bylsma didn't have one. He never changed it up. Couturier was destroying Malkin and instead of switching up the lines/using last change advantage he kept sending Malkin out there. Now you can sit there and blame the player, (I just give credit to Couturier for being a good young defender, big body etc) but you have to get on Bylsma FOR DOING NOTHING AFTER GETTING BLOWN OUT MULTIPLE TIMES. NOTHING. I have a feeling the game 4 changes came from Mario or Shero not even Bylsma. He needs to go. Teams 7-8 games before the playoffs figured out his system/defensive unit flaws out. Its why we got smacked by Ottawa and lost back to back to the ISLANDERS WHEN WE NEEDED THOSE 4 POINTS FOR THE FIRST SEED!
So Bylsma just being bad/not changing anything makes the argument about that end there. As for the Flyers "supposed to" beat everyone in the conference, well, weren't the Rangers 6-0 or something dominate vs them this year? I knew the Flyers wouldn't win a cup with that nutcase Bryz this year.
As far as the getting more grinders/checkers for this style of play is a moot point for me, because well, we were still scoring 4 goals a game.
-We need a new coach who will come in here and implement a new system, noteable a team defense/breakout. No more derpa derpa dump 24/7. Someone that says hey, this team studyed my system for weeks just to beat us, lets change it so they're screwed. Not just be stubborn and keep repeating and thinking 'no1 can beat us if we get to our game' herp derp - Bylsma. "Arms Crossed"
-New coach will see Martin is garbage and he'll be gone. He will see the talent of Despres and other young defenseman and hopefully give them a chance. No more Adams/Parks on line 4. I want a 4th line of Jefferys/Vitales that can score 8-10 goals a season. More all around 4th liners.
As far as you don't think the league is clutch and grabbing, did you watch the 3rd/OT period of Kings/Coyotes? It was a prime example of so much wrong with the game.
I fully agree 100% we need to get rid of Kennedy/Adams/Asham/Park/Dupuis/Cooke Maybe Kunitz too. I'm not saying all of them this year, however flush them out with new UFAs/Prospects in the next 0-2 years.
penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.
NJ5934 wrote:penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.
As much as I am on the anti Martin bandwagon, I will say I think the strengths of the pens defense is completely contingent on an aggressive offensive forecheck. It really is a five man system on the ice at any given time. When the pens were aggressive and finished their checks the pressure was on Philly and our blueliners, which tend to be smaller and less menacing, had extra time and moved the puck well. When the pens backed off...the defense was left to survive Philly's forecheck which we all saw was pretty much a disaster.
While I would agree that there needs to be better balance amongst our blueliners.....I think the real key is having big aggressive forwards that can dictate the play. As long as DB is calling the shots anyway.
tfrizz wrote:As always, the teams committed to winning (blocking shots, etc) are the ones winning. The Pens didn't do it.
It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:tfrizz wrote:As always, the teams committed to winning (blocking shots, etc) are the ones winning. The Pens didn't do it.
While a great sentiment, it's simply not true regarding blocked shots anyway.
LA Kings are 9th overall in the playoffs in blocks per game
New Jersey is dead last at 16th overall
Better hope that NY Rangers make a comeback because at least they are 2nd overall.
*Pittsburgh is 10th overall btw
Also interestingly; Turnover Diff, Faceoff % and Hits don't appear to have a correlation either
Luckybreak wrote:Yeah I realise it's not a popular style, but ask any fanbase and the majority would prefer a guy who hits, nothing more than human nature. It gets people excited even when not the correct play to make - see Orpik, Brooks.
mikey287 wrote:Sarcastic wrote:Desiato wrote:Martin still demonstrates great fundamental skills.
Not offensively. And he can't play physical defense. So, yeah, the first pass and an occasional poke check.
He's a good, not great, puck mover, good first pass, very good positonally, very good with his stick, fairs well in a passive, zone defense system, oddly very good puck-carrier through the defensive and neutral zones, anticipates well, sees the game best as the last guy back and the last guy up the ice. He really is a good defenseman, just not here.
mikey287 wrote:Whatever it is, we'll have to deal with it now and hope for the best.
pcm wrote:mikey287 wrote:Whatever it is, we'll have to deal with it now and hope for the best.
By deal with it, hopefully that means dealing Martin. Then the discussions about trading Staal (for cap space?) can end.
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