Watching NYR/NJD and..

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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby penny lane on Mon May 21, 2012 5:24 pm

As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby mikey287 on Mon May 21, 2012 5:31 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
brwi wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Do you guys remember how good Martin was on the Devils? It's pretty much the reason we gave him $5 mil and the reason he made the US Olympic team.


No, I don't, since he missed the last year as a Devil with injuries. Before that, he hadn't shown he was anything like stellar, but neither had Dan Hamhuis and both got the big $$$ in free agency. As far as the US Olympic team goes, he didn't get close to the ice when the game was on the line because Ryan Suter was out there instead, a much better dman in all areas.

d-men have become a terrible ROI in the salary cap era and J-Bo and Paul Martin are right at the top of the list of overpaid UFA dmen. Frankly, Jbo is better than Martin and a better ROI. Martin is a tweener d-men that is an anchor-drag on a team hitting the salary cap wall.


He was hurt for the Olympics...

And I think the Orpik/JJ pairing was the shutdown pairing for the US


On a team with Tim Gleason, Erik Johnson, Ryan Suter and to a lesser extent Brooks Orpik...I don't think a player with such horrid positioning in Jack Johnson will ever be a part of any shutdown pairing, and he wasn't in 2010 either. I thought Orpik was just babysitting Johnson (and sometimes Whitney?) on the third pairing.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby KG on Mon May 21, 2012 5:59 pm

penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.


Agreed penny. If Martin is not going to be a top penalty killer or on the top power play unit, then for what he is being paid, the Pens don't need him...

When Martin first signed I thought he was going to be a top penalty killer and "replace Gonchar" on the power play. Not that he was ever going to be a 15 goal scorer. I was expecting a 10-40-50 type of production.

He's just been bad and doesn't fit in...move him...
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Nizzy on Mon May 21, 2012 9:00 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Nizzy wrote:Thanks everyone for the good discussion, the point I was trying to make was:
.


Agreed but I think a few more numbers should be added:

4. Probably at least 3 of our defensive guys need to go (including Orpik).

5. Overhaul to a point on our forward wingers.

6. General thought: I think with the cap and parity you are seeing teams needing to be more system driven like the NFL. In by that I mean in the past in the NHL if you were good, you were good. End of story. Sure a team needed a big winger or speed could try to add that but its not like a good player would fail in any system.

Or I could be wrong and our system just stinks but food for thought.


4. Agree about your assessment of Brooks Orpik. However I feel like he had a bad season, but he shouldn't be moved after that. I say give him the full offseason to regroup and see how he is next season. If he still looks as bad or even worse then consider moving him then. He's put to much into this team/organization to dump him after a sub-par season.

5. I Think Shero is going to let the contracts of Cooke/Kennedy/Dupuis finish out then maybe rebuild with other wingers. I agree though need to get younger on the wing with some new blood.

6. I think the main problem here was that Shero was building a team for the 2005-08 style of NHL where these quicker puck moving players could florish with their skill. Now its back to the clutch and grabbing and bigger body players (maybe some with less talent) are excelling.

Is that really Sheros fault? Won a cup with a certain style that fit the NHL and kept building around, but the game/rules changed again..

good post thx!
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Nizzy on Mon May 21, 2012 9:07 pm

shmenguin wrote:people didn't like goligoski in his last season here because he made glaring mistakes with the puck. people don't like martin because he makes glaring mistakes with the puck. if 1996 sergei zubov was on this team, no one would give a crap that he wasn't physical. if 2000's brian rafalski was on the team - same deal.

lunatics aside, people fully understand that guys like this aren't expected to be physical. it's such a cop out to use physicality as a key contributor in the makings of a whipping boy. a terrible turnover or flubbing pucks on the point carry so much more influence to the average viewer than shying away from a hit. the physicality thing is lazy reasoning.


I think your answer is Sarge, Gonchar.

The guy never through a hit but wasn't making the mistakes Martin made/just being Terrible.

Then, in the cup, Gonchar turned into a beast and was hitting like crazy. AKA playing playing hockey and wanting a Cup. Martin did nothing but get worse. Gonchar was worth every penny of his Salary the Cup year. Martin isn't NHL worry for playoff style.

Devils didn't win a championship with Martin as a primary Defenseman, its clear, at least to me he doesn't have it and we won either.

EDIT: Yeah, also like someone said above Gonchar played PK very effectively as well. Looking at all this stuff I really miss that 2008 version of Gonchar and took him for granted. :(
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Staggy on Mon May 21, 2012 11:01 pm

KG wrote:
penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.


Agreed penny. If Martin is not going to be a top penalty killer or on the top power play unit, then for what he is being paid, the Pens don't need him...

When Martin first signed I thought he was going to be a top penalty killer and "replace Gonchar" on the power play. Not that he was ever going to be a 15 goal scorer. I was expecting a 10-40-50 type of production.

He's just been bad and doesn't fit in...move him...


Well that's more your fault rather than Martin's. He's never been that kind of player and expecting him to be will just leave you disappointed. His career highs in New Jersey were 5 goals and 33 points. Expecting him to double his goal output and have a 17 point jump in points is asking way too much from a defensive defenseman. I mean damn, a 50 point season would have him 6th in the league in defenseman scoring this year. Those are ridiculous expectations for a guy that's not known as being an offensive defenseman nor is he paid to be one.

If you want to criticize Martin for his defensive play then that's valid, but hopping on him for not being a top ~5 point producer for his position is insane.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Luckybreak on Tue May 22, 2012 10:51 am

Staggy wrote:
KG wrote:
penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.


Agreed penny. If Martin is not going to be a top penalty killer or on the top power play unit, then for what he is being paid, the Pens don't need him...

When Martin first signed I thought he was going to be a top penalty killer and "replace Gonchar" on the power play. Not that he was ever going to be a 15 goal scorer. I was expecting a 10-40-50 type of production.

He's just been bad and doesn't fit in...move him...


Well that's more your fault rather than Martin's. He's never been that kind of player and expecting him to be will just leave you disappointed. His career highs in New Jersey were 5 goals and 33 points. Expecting him to double his goal output and have a 17 point jump in points is asking way too much from a defensive defenseman. I mean damn, a 50 point season would have him 6th in the league in defenseman scoring this year. Those are ridiculous expectations for a guy that's not known as being an offensive defenseman nor is he paid to be one.

If you want to criticize Martin for his defensive play then that's valid, but hopping on him for not being a top ~5 point producer for his position is insane.


Not insane. Quite a few suggested that the move to an open system playing with premier forwards would allow Martin to display his offensive abilities that had been stifled in New Jersey. This may have been exaggerated by the media and unfairly raised expectations, but I'm sure Shero expected the highly touted smooth skating and passing to translate to more points.

Someone (maybe Shmenguin?) described Martin as a 'Jack of all trades, master of none' - IMO this is not enough to be paid as a top D man. Martin's lack of reliability and failure to do 'all the little things' the hockey experts revere him for leave a lot to be desired, and whilst he may thrive in a better suited system, I hope his time as a Pen is at an end.

I loved Engel and Nisky as the 3rd pairing but Despres needs to start in the bottom pairing. Assuming Nisky is re-signed and is capable of playing 2nd line minutes, does a Nisky-Michalek pairing address the teams problems of size on D? Personally I think both M+M need to be moved in favour of promoting Despres, keeping Nisky and addressing the lack of size/grit etc on D through free agency, i.e.

Letang-Orpik
Nisky-Allen
Engel-Despres

This should also free up enough cap space to retain the core players and potentially upgrade the 3rd/4th lines in terms of size/grit/age. These are areas I would hope result in greater playoff success rather than scoring titles!
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby sil on Tue May 22, 2012 11:38 am

Luckybreak wrote:These are areas I would hope result in greater playoff success rather than scoring titles!


I think this relies on our star forwards (all of them) backchecking and playing defensive hockey as much as (if not more than) our D-core being improved.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Luckybreak on Tue May 22, 2012 1:08 pm

sil wrote:
Luckybreak wrote:These are areas I would hope result in greater playoff success rather than scoring titles!


I think this relies on our star forwards (all of them) backchecking and playing defensive hockey as much as (if not more than) our D-core being improved.


Fingers crossed the 3/4th lines will have recovered from the 'Crosby Effect', and the aforementioned star players will lead by example. I know I would be pretty motivated after the Flyers round 1 catastrophe. Could also argue it depends on what they are being coached to do, how well they execute or 'get to their game' etc etc but I know losing Staal and trying to proceed with the same D will likely have the same result (early exit)!
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby tfrizz on Tue May 22, 2012 1:29 pm

As always, the teams committed to winning (blocking shots, etc) are the ones winning. The Pens didn't do it.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue May 22, 2012 11:24 pm

Nizzy wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Nizzy wrote:Thanks everyone for the good discussion, the point I was trying to make was:
.


Agreed but I think a few more numbers should be added:

4. Probably at least 3 of our defensive guys need to go (including Orpik).

5. Overhaul to a point on our forward wingers.

6. General thought: I think with the cap and parity you are seeing teams needing to be more system driven like the NFL. In by that I mean in the past in the NHL if you were good, you were good. End of story. Sure a team needed a big winger or speed could try to add that but its not like a good player would fail in any system.

Or I could be wrong and our system just stinks but food for thought.


4. Agree about your assessment of Brooks Orpik. However I feel like he had a bad season, but he shouldn't be moved after that. I say give him the full offseason to regroup and see how he is next season. If he still looks as bad or even worse then consider moving him then. He's put to much into this team/organization to dump him after a sub-par season.

5. I Think Shero is going to let the contracts of Cooke/Kennedy/Dupuis finish out then maybe rebuild with other wingers. I agree though need to get younger on the wing with some new blood.

6. I think the main problem here was that Shero was building a team for the 2005-08 style of NHL where these quicker puck moving players could florish with their skill. Now its back to the clutch and grabbing and bigger body players (maybe some with less talent) are excelling.

Is that really Sheros fault? Won a cup with a certain style that fit the NHL and kept building around, but the game/rules changed again..

good post thx!



Well, I agree to a point - but again a team beat us in a wide open style and beat us badly so I think this team as currently constructed is just not that good. The thing is when we won the cup we had Eaton, Orpik, Scuderi and Gill. Then Gonchar and Letang who were both very capable on defense. We had Talbot on the 2nd line. Everyone says Philly was built to beat us and we could beat anyone else in the conference. But at the same time we say the style has changed and that is the problem - but the other teams play less wide open than the Flyers. And have goalies.

My point is that I think loading up on defense/grinders is even more smart in a wide open (or a better description would be attacking) style, if it was 3 years ago with this teams and the rules were more lacks we would have gotten throttled even worse.

I think the issue is that GMRS and HCDB switched gears with players they thought they needed to fit their system, yet that very system (as long as you have 2 top flight centers and Kris Letang) call for a load up on defense and grinders to balance out the attacking style. They were fine as previously constructed but probably just needed one top flight winger.

In general I think the league is less wide open but not as clutch and grab as people think. Its more of a collapsing defensive system. As far as the Pens I dont blame GMRS for keeping TK and Cooke around, or for Kunitz having a bad playoff. Or Adams getting old. Or Orpik apparently losing a step. Those things happen sometimes and you have to move on, you cant win the cup every year. But the other signings were his fault all the way.

We need fresh blood on the wings. Now that we have Neal we need to round out our forwards with grit.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Nizzy on Wed May 23, 2012 3:19 am

tfrizz wrote:As always, the teams committed to winning (blocking shots, etc) are the ones winning. The Pens didn't do it.


Its more/different than just that. Like tonight, in the incredibly terrible reffed 3rd/OT periods.

Brown goes to the net, slips Smiths glove right after he covers the puck => knocks glove off. He gets hit by Hanzal, thats when Hanzal should be done, but he sits on top of Brown for almost 10 game seconds. In addition another Coyote grabs and holds another King player on the other side of Smith... complete obstruction/holding/whatever you want to call it.

Then they get Doughty on the weakess interference call, when he had the position and it was a 20 foot+ legal position battle to the puck when they both had a direct path, while Whitney (Ibelieve it was him) was holding his stick.

Just so much junk in these playoffs. 2008 2009 where so much CLEANER/better hockey.

Refs are so scared to let the game be decided on a penalty that they don't call one and the game turns to garbage. Is that really letting them "play?"

------

Its not like I even care that much, it just screwed the Pens as they were designing another team for another league. So they're screwed.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Nizzy on Wed May 23, 2012 3:34 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:

Well, I agree to a point - but again a team beat us in a wide open style and beat us badly so I think this team as currently constructed is just not that good. The thing is when we won the cup we had Eaton, Orpik, Scuderi and Gill. Then Gonchar and Letang who were both very capable on defense. We had Talbot on the 2nd line. Everyone says Philly was built to beat us and we could beat anyone else in the conference. But at the same time we say the style has changed and that is the problem - but the other teams play less wide open than the Flyers. And have goalies.

My point is that I think loading up on defense/grinders is even more smart in a wide open (or a better description would be attacking) style, if it was 3 years ago with this teams and the rules were more lacks we would have gotten throttled even worse.

I think the issue is that GMRS and HCDB switched gears with players they thought they needed to fit their system, yet that very system (as long as you have 2 top flight centers and Kris Letang) call for a load up on defense and grinders to balance out the attacking style. They were fine as previously constructed but probably just needed one top flight winger.

In general I think the league is less wide open but not as clutch and grab as people think. Its more of a collapsing defensive system. As far as the Pens I dont blame GMRS for keeping TK and Cooke around, or for Kunitz having a bad playoff. Or Adams getting old. Or Orpik apparently losing a step. Those things happen sometimes and you have to move on, you cant win the cup every year. But the other signings were his fault all the way.

We need fresh blood on the wings. Now that we have Neal we need to round out our forwards with grit.


Too start, once again you make some great basic points. I agree the overall team/secondary guys just weren't good. There simply was no team defense at all.

Here's the thing about the Flyers/them beating us/supposed to beat everyone else in the conference. The Flyers and Lavs made a gameplan to take out our system. What was the answer? Nothing. Bylsma didn't have one. He never changed it up. Couturier was destroying Malkin and instead of switching up the lines/using last change advantage he kept sending Malkin out there. Now you can sit there and blame the player, (I just give credit to Couturier for being a good young defender, big body etc) but you have to get on Bylsma FOR DOING NOTHING AFTER GETTING BLOWN OUT MULTIPLE TIMES. NOTHING. I have a feeling the game 4 changes came from Mario or Shero not even Bylsma. He needs to go. Teams 7-8 games before the playoffs figured out his system/defensive unit flaws out. Its why we got smacked by Ottawa and lost back to back to the ISLANDERS WHEN WE NEEDED THOSE 4 POINTS FOR THE FIRST SEED!

So Bylsma just being bad/not changing anything makes the argument about that end there. As for the Flyers "supposed to" beat everyone in the conference, well, weren't the Rangers 6-0 or something dominate vs them this year? I knew the Flyers wouldn't win a cup with that nutcase Bryz this year.

As far as the getting more grinders/checkers for this style of play is a moot point for me, because well, we were still scoring 4 goals a game.

-We need a new coach who will come in here and implement a new system, noteable a team defense/breakout. No more derpa derpa dump 24/7. Someone that says hey, this team studyed my system for weeks just to beat us, lets change it so they're screwed. Not just be stubborn and keep repeating and thinking 'no1 can beat us if we get to our game' herp derp - Bylsma. "Arms Crossed"

-New coach will see Martin is garbage and he'll be gone. He will see the talent of Despres and other young defenseman and hopefully give them a chance. No more Adams/Parks on line 4. I want a 4th line of Jefferys/Vitales that can score 8-10 goals a season. More all around 4th liners.

As far as you don't think the league is clutch and grabbing, did you watch the 3rd/OT period of Kings/Coyotes? It was a prime example of so much wrong with the game.

I fully agree 100% we need to get rid of Kennedy/Adams/Asham/Park/Dupuis/Cooke Maybe Kunitz too. I'm not saying all of them this year, however flush them out with new UFAs/Prospects in the next 0-2 years.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 23, 2012 8:26 am

Nizzy wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:

Well, I agree to a point - but again a team beat us in a wide open style and beat us badly so I think this team as currently constructed is just not that good. The thing is when we won the cup we had Eaton, Orpik, Scuderi and Gill. Then Gonchar and Letang who were both very capable on defense. We had Talbot on the 2nd line. Everyone says Philly was built to beat us and we could beat anyone else in the conference. But at the same time we say the style has changed and that is the problem - but the other teams play less wide open than the Flyers. And have goalies.

My point is that I think loading up on defense/grinders is even more smart in a wide open (or a better description would be attacking) style, if it was 3 years ago with this teams and the rules were more lacks we would have gotten throttled even worse.

I think the issue is that GMRS and HCDB switched gears with players they thought they needed to fit their system, yet that very system (as long as you have 2 top flight centers and Kris Letang) call for a load up on defense and grinders to balance out the attacking style. They were fine as previously constructed but probably just needed one top flight winger.

In general I think the league is less wide open but not as clutch and grab as people think. Its more of a collapsing defensive system. As far as the Pens I dont blame GMRS for keeping TK and Cooke around, or for Kunitz having a bad playoff. Or Adams getting old. Or Orpik apparently losing a step. Those things happen sometimes and you have to move on, you cant win the cup every year. But the other signings were his fault all the way.

We need fresh blood on the wings. Now that we have Neal we need to round out our forwards with grit.


Too start, once again you make some great basic points. I agree the overall team/secondary guys just weren't good. There simply was no team defense at all.

Here's the thing about the Flyers/them beating us/supposed to beat everyone else in the conference. The Flyers and Lavs made a gameplan to take out our system. What was the answer? Nothing. Bylsma didn't have one. He never changed it up. Couturier was destroying Malkin and instead of switching up the lines/using last change advantage he kept sending Malkin out there. Now you can sit there and blame the player, (I just give credit to Couturier for being a good young defender, big body etc) but you have to get on Bylsma FOR DOING NOTHING AFTER GETTING BLOWN OUT MULTIPLE TIMES. NOTHING. I have a feeling the game 4 changes came from Mario or Shero not even Bylsma. He needs to go. Teams 7-8 games before the playoffs figured out his system/defensive unit flaws out. Its why we got smacked by Ottawa and lost back to back to the ISLANDERS WHEN WE NEEDED THOSE 4 POINTS FOR THE FIRST SEED!

So Bylsma just being bad/not changing anything makes the argument about that end there. As for the Flyers "supposed to" beat everyone in the conference, well, weren't the Rangers 6-0 or something dominate vs them this year? I knew the Flyers wouldn't win a cup with that nutcase Bryz this year.

As far as the getting more grinders/checkers for this style of play is a moot point for me, because well, we were still scoring 4 goals a game.

-We need a new coach who will come in here and implement a new system, noteable a team defense/breakout. No more derpa derpa dump 24/7. Someone that says hey, this team studyed my system for weeks just to beat us, lets change it so they're screwed. Not just be stubborn and keep repeating and thinking 'no1 can beat us if we get to our game' herp derp - Bylsma. "Arms Crossed"

-New coach will see Martin is garbage and he'll be gone. He will see the talent of Despres and other young defenseman and hopefully give them a chance. No more Adams/Parks on line 4. I want a 4th line of Jefferys/Vitales that can score 8-10 goals a season. More all around 4th liners.

As far as you don't think the league is clutch and grabbing, did you watch the 3rd/OT period of Kings/Coyotes? It was a prime example of so much wrong with the game.

I fully agree 100% we need to get rid of Kennedy/Adams/Asham/Park/Dupuis/Cooke Maybe Kunitz too. I'm not saying all of them this year, however flush them out with new UFAs/Prospects in the next 0-2 years.


Well, keep in mind first that I am talking in general. There was too much going on with our team to pinpoint every exact reason. My post was just touching on the personnel and how the league/refs are not even close to the reason we lost. The other stuff you wrote is true too of course, but my point is that we cant overlook the personnel issues on the team. Some people dont want to admit that.

My point about the grinders is more that sure we are scoring 4 points per game but giving up too many too and although our system/defense seems to suck bad, a huge part of it is on how our forwards were playing. Like a run and shoot NFL team. Its not as simple as us scoring many goals. We scored goals based on some top end skill but we had zero cycle in the other teams end, played on the perimeter all game, zero punishing of the d-men and zero ability to stop the other teams cycle (part of which is on the forwards). That is a huge part of the reason we lost to the Flyers 8 - 5.

Scoring 5 goals doesnt mean squat when you give up 8 and part of that is on the forwards.

But your first point on the game plan of the Flyers to beat us. I agree (I am on not taking any blame away from HCDP - my post was simply to point out our personnel flaws) but what I am saying is that Pens fans are making excuses for the loss while missing basic reasons. The league is too much clutch and grab, we were built for a different league (yet we got beat in a wide open series), we could beat other teams just not the Flyers (I highly doubt that as we got smoked often in the final month of the season), we got out coached (yes, of course we did but we also played like ****), Girioux was on fire (he was but Staal and Orpik were exposed on the PK for being slow laterally), Paul Martin sucks (he did but so did Orpik, Letang, DE etc), our defense is poor (but our forwards back checking or forechecking were just as bad).

The poor officiating in the LA/PHX were more awful non calls than missed clutching and grabbing. That has been going in hockey since before Jesus especially late in the playoffs or in OT. Clutch and grab is not even 1% of the reason we lost against the Flyers or had zero chance to win the cup this year. That is my main point.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby NJ5934 on Wed May 23, 2012 9:29 am

penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.


As much as I am on the anti Martin bandwagon, I will say I think the strengths of the pens defense is completely contingent on an aggressive offensive forecheck. It really is a five man system on the ice at any given time. When the pens were aggressive and finished their checks the pressure was on Philly and our blueliners, which tend to be smaller and less menacing, had extra time and moved the puck well. When the pens backed off...the defense was left to survive Philly's forecheck which we all saw was pretty much a disaster.

While I would agree that there needs to be better balance amongst our blueliners.....I think the real key is having big aggressive forwards that can dictate the play. As long as DB is calling the shots anyway.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby sil on Wed May 23, 2012 9:37 am

NJ5934 wrote:
penny lane wrote:As many have said, the pens have too many of the same type~ body and style, defensemen. Pens need to pair a "clear the lanes" big body type with the puck movers. Last year, Tampa, again talented forwards, Martin wasn't able to control them. If he can't prevent goals, or help to, there is no reason to keep him. Don't need him to score goals or be a part of the power play. all season I wasn't a basher of Martin. Sure, if everybody else is 100 percent, Martin is fine.


As much as I am on the anti Martin bandwagon, I will say I think the strengths of the pens defense is completely contingent on an aggressive offensive forecheck. It really is a five man system on the ice at any given time. When the pens were aggressive and finished their checks the pressure was on Philly and our blueliners, which tend to be smaller and less menacing, had extra time and moved the puck well. When the pens backed off...the defense was left to survive Philly's forecheck which we all saw was pretty much a disaster.

While I would agree that there needs to be better balance amongst our blueliners.....I think the real key is having big aggressive forwards that can dictate the play. As long as DB is calling the shots anyway.


It doesn't matter how dominant those forwards are in the offensive zone, if they half-butt their play in the defensive zone, a lot of teams will eat our d-core alive. As you said, it's a 5-man system...but at BOTH ends.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby It'sagreatdayforhockey! on Thu May 24, 2012 3:46 pm

tfrizz wrote:As always, the teams committed to winning (blocking shots, etc) are the ones winning. The Pens didn't do it.


While a great sentiment, it's simply not true regarding blocked shots anyway.

LA Kings are 9th overall in the playoffs in blocks per game
New Jersey is dead last at 16th overall
Better hope that NY Rangers make a comeback because at least they are 2nd overall.

*Pittsburgh is 10th overall btw


Also interestingly; Turnover Diff, Faceoff % and Hits don't appear to have a correlation either
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby sil on Fri May 25, 2012 8:24 am

It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:
tfrizz wrote:As always, the teams committed to winning (blocking shots, etc) are the ones winning. The Pens didn't do it.


While a great sentiment, it's simply not true regarding blocked shots anyway.

LA Kings are 9th overall in the playoffs in blocks per game
New Jersey is dead last at 16th overall
Better hope that NY Rangers make a comeback because at least they are 2nd overall.

*Pittsburgh is 10th overall btw


Also interestingly; Turnover Diff, Faceoff % and Hits don't appear to have a correlation either


Forward playing D probably does though.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Sarcastic on Fri May 25, 2012 3:18 pm

Luckybreak wrote:Yeah I realise it's not a popular style, but ask any fanbase and the majority would prefer a guy who hits, nothing more than human nature. It gets people excited even when not the correct play to make - see Orpik, Brooks.


It's not even about 'hitting' people when it comes to Martin. It's about his complete lack of physicality in front of net and on boards. Letang doesn't hit that much, but he's as fierce a competitor as you'll find in the game.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby Sarcastic on Fri May 25, 2012 3:29 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Desiato wrote:Martin still demonstrates great fundamental skills.


Not offensively. And he can't play physical defense. So, yeah, the first pass and an occasional poke check.


He's a good, not great, puck mover, good first pass, very good positonally, very good with his stick, fairs well in a passive, zone defense system, oddly very good puck-carrier through the defensive and neutral zones, anticipates well, sees the game best as the last guy back and the last guy up the ice. He really is a good defenseman, just not here.


All those attributes you listed mean nothing if he can't handle physical playoff hockey. And I mean that from the competititive standpoint. The battling for the puck on the boards (I noticed him intentionally losing the puck to avoid getting hit in the Flyer series) or fighting for space in the crease. There was a Devils fan who came to the Pens' section on hfboards - I don't post there, but do read as I feel the hockey talk has gotten quiet good there in the last couple years - and said that while Martin is a good player, he can't handle the physical game and he also mentioned a recent Flyers series while Martin was still a Devil and said the same thing occured: he was overwhelmed by their physical game.

Sorry, but a player like this has no room on my team.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby mikey287 on Fri May 25, 2012 5:52 pm

That's fine. I don't care much for it either to be honest. Paul Martin is no Sergei Gonchar in terms of puck-moving, transition game or shot, but if Shero thought, "eh, we got Orpik and Engelland to provide physicality and we won a Stanley Cup with Gonchar as a #1 d-man and he could play an entire playoff game with a dozen eggs in his pants and not break a single one...so maybe Martin will fit here" I guess he didn't realize how poorly Martin was going to perform on this team. Poor GMing? Maybe. Poor pro scouting? Probably. Whatever it is, we'll have to deal with it now and hope for the best.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby pcm on Sat May 26, 2012 12:27 pm

mikey287 wrote:Whatever it is, we'll have to deal with it now and hope for the best.


By deal with it, hopefully that means dealing Martin. Then the discussions about trading Staal (for cap space?) can end.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby mikey287 on Sat May 26, 2012 12:37 pm

pcm wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Whatever it is, we'll have to deal with it now and hope for the best.


By deal with it, hopefully that means dealing Martin. Then the discussions about trading Staal (for cap space?) can end.


I don't think the discussion of trading Staal is for cap space. We generally want Staal I think. It's does Staal want us, my gut is that if he makes it to unrestricted free agency, he's gonna walk. I think the board, collectively, has finally realized the value of Staal to this team (took a while, but it's there now) but we'll see what he wants to do.
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby pcm on Sat May 26, 2012 1:09 pm

If Staal is unhappy with the way he's being used, then it's a coaching issue. IMO Staal is more important to this team than Blysma. Likely though Staal's role will be addressed internally, and Blysma will give him a more prominent role (moved to wing, power play time, etc.) I imagine though that Blysma will be on a short lease next season, and if things are not going well, a new coach will be brought in who can utilize the big 3 effectively. Malkin-Sid-Staal-Letang-Fleury are the backbone of this team.

The only way I can see Staal being traded is as a last ditch effort at the deadline in a situation where he's expressed his desire, overtly or not, to move on. Even then a trade is questionable (see Parise, Zach.)
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Re: Watching NYR/NJD and..

Postby mikey287 on Sat May 26, 2012 1:22 pm

Is it a coaching issue or a numbers game? It's not like Staal is the third line center behind Milan Kraft or Robert Lang...he's the 3rd line center behind Evgeni Malkin and Sidney Crosby. This past season, though, Staal played the second most amount of minutes of any forward on the team (within one minute of leader Evgeni Malkin), same deal the season before except replace Malkin with Crosby. So Bylsma gives him plenty of time...maybe he wants a little bit of the spotlight or to play with one of his brothers or whatever, I don't really know. Hell, maybe he wants to play here forever, I don't know...

I don't think wing is the answer. Staal's strengths don't make him a good fit for the wing.
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