Crosby contract update/rumor?

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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby Bathgate on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:03 am

Sid's been getting involved with the PA and having direct contact with Donald Fehr. I would expect Fehr to be pressuring Sid, as the league's biggest star, to set an example and to go for the maximum amount possible in salary, regardless if it hurts his chances of winning.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby columbia on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:05 am

Bathgate wrote:Sid's been getting involved with the PA and having direct contact with Donald Fehr. I would expect Fehr to be pressuring Sid, as the league's biggest star, to set an example and to go for the maximum amount possible in salary, regardless if it hurts his chances of winning.


There's even less evidence to support this idea, than there is for Staal wanting to be traded.
In both cases it's none, mind you.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby no name on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:09 am

newarenanow wrote:
no name wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
Froggy wrote:does the 10 year term worry anyone else?


No.


Wait wasn't there another superstar who retired early that eventually pushed a certin franchise into bankruptcy??? Can't remember his name though...


What does that have to do with Sid signing a long term deal when the finances and NHL salary structure are completely different than they were 15 years ago?


Ok me impling Sid retiring would run us into bankruptcy isn't true, but it wouldn't help our finanicial situation. Paying someone 9 milion a season when they are not playing and drawing in the fans at the gate wouldn't help that is for sure.

Salary structue and finances still bow down to supply and demand. No Sid, less demand = less money. Ok maybe not enough to run us into the ground but we might have not be able to spend to the cap max until that contact runs out. Its possible, by no mean am i guarenting it but a possibility none the less.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby sil on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:11 am

I'm confused as to why there's still concern that Sid will ask for a cap hit of $14,000,000 per year (max salary) when (A) both CBC and TSN have reported that Crosby and the Pens are close on a (roughly) 10-year, $90,000,000 deal...and (B) Sid's contract can still be arranged for him to earn league max salary ($14,000,000) in the early years of the contract, and then take $5,000,000 (+/-) near the back end ???

It seems pretty clear to me at this point that he and Fehr aren't planning to wreck our cap.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby Defence21 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:18 am

sil wrote:I'm confused as to why there's still concern that Sid will ask for a cap hit of $14,000,000 per year (max salary) when (A) both CBC and TSN have reported that Crosby and the Pens are close on a (roughly) 10-year, $90,000,000 deal...and (B) Sid's contract can still be arranged for him to earn league max salary ($14,000,000) in the early years of the contract, and then take $5,000,000 (+/-) near the back end ???

It seems pretty clear to me at this point that he and Fehr aren't planning to wreck our cap.

From what I've read, the amount was not confirmed and that the $9 million salary was speculation from the CBC team and several anonymous GMs. Sounds more like educated guessing as opposed to official reporting.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby newarenanow on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:53 am

no name wrote:Ok me impling Sid retiring would run us into bankruptcy isn't true, but it wouldn't help our finanicial situation. Paying someone 9 milion a season when they are not playing and drawing in the fans at the gate wouldn't help that is for sure.

Salary structue and finances still bow down to supply and demand. No Sid, less demand = less money. Ok maybe not enough to run us into the ground but we might have not be able to spend to the cap max until that contact runs out. Its possible, by no mean am i guarenting it but a possibility none the less.


He is the best player in the world. He is asking for a long term contract with a very, very minimal raise on his previous contact over the next 10 years. He is leaving probably $4M or so a year on the table to stay with the Pens long term through the prime of his career. And there is an issue with this?

Sure, he can get another concussion, and be sidelined long term, or have to retire. But there are insurance polcies to protect the team with regard to this, and someone correct me if I"m wrong, but I don't know if there is any guaranteed money within these contracts. So if he retires, he is off the books.

He could be asking $14M or so a year (I think that is the max right now, correct me if I"m wrong). He is willing to leave like 33% of what he could be making maximum. ANd people want it to either be talked down further or not take the risk?

I think this is a can't lose situation for the Pens.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby sil on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:56 am

Defence21 wrote:
sil wrote:I'm confused as to why there's still concern that Sid will ask for a cap hit of $14,000,000 per year (max salary) when (A) both CBC and TSN have reported that Crosby and the Pens are close on a (roughly) 10-year, $90,000,000 deal...and (B) Sid's contract can still be arranged for him to earn league max salary ($14,000,000) in the early years of the contract, and then take $5,000,000 (+/-) near the back end ???

It seems pretty clear to me at this point that he and Fehr aren't planning to wreck our cap.

From what I've read, the amount was not confirmed and that the $9 million salary was speculation from the CBC team and several anonymous GMs. Sounds more like educated guessing as opposed to official reporting.


In almost every case such as this, the number they report is pretty close to the actual end result. I'd be quite surprised if they're reporting around $9,000,000 based on some random guy's best guess...and then it turns out to be a 12M cap hit or something like that. It's going to be around $9,000,000.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby Bathgate on Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:14 am

columbia wrote:
Bathgate wrote:Sid's been getting involved with the PA and having direct contact with Donald Fehr. I would expect Fehr to be pressuring Sid, as the league's biggest star, to set an example and to go for the maximum amount possible in salary, regardless if it hurts his chances of winning.


There's even less evidence to support this idea, than there is for Staal wanting to be traded.
In both cases it's none, mind you.


Not saying Sid's buying it, but just that it's probably what Fehr is doing because it's what PA's do. It's prevalent in baseball (where Fehr came from). Albert Pujols was probably forced out of St. Louis (where he was happy) by the PA demanding that he take the highest offer. It's how the PA's keep the salaries rising.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby columbia on Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:16 am

There's not a salary cap in baseball, so I don't see the situations as being comparable.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:41 am

Maybe I can be of some minor assistance in quelling some fears...

Basically the way it works currently, AIUI...each team has a small handful of contracts that they insure through a group (based out of Long Island, BWD? something like that), usually 5 or 7 or so. It's too expensive to insure all of the contracts a team has (~45-50). These contracts can be insured for up to 7 years. Insurance kicks in when a player misses 30 games.

Again, this is just what I've kind of pieced together through various places and from memory...but I believe I have the rough idea...

If a player is injured during an insured contract and cannot continue playing for his career. The team will continue to pay his contract out but will (likely) be aided by the insurance. If a player formally announces that he retires voluntarily (i.e. makes no mention of his inability to perform due to injury) the team is off the hook for the remainder of the salary. I believe (believe, not gospel) that the player will receive his total contract whether it is via insurance or the team paying his salary. The max a contract can be insured for (under the NHL group policy) is 7 years. After that, the team is solely responsible for any further payment. In terms of salary cap relevance, (mind you, this is current rules, there is a new CBA in the offing) Crosby would not count against the salary cap during the playing year in the event that he is placed on LTIR (long-term injured reserve). During the offseason, there is no injured reserve. He will count fully during the offseason. As per current rules, each team is allowed to exceed the Upper Limit by 10% during the offseason. However, they must return to a compliant state prior to their first game of the regular season.

Short version (based on current rules and 10 yr/$90 M contract)

- League has insurance policy for some, it covers up to 7 years
- Player will get his money, but team will be aided by insurance payments in fulfilling the obligation in the event of an injury
- Counts against the cap in the offseason regardless (unless voluntary retirement), will not count during the season when placed on LTIR
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby Defence21 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:51 am

sil wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
sil wrote:I'm confused as to why there's still concern that Sid will ask for a cap hit of $14,000,000 per year (max salary) when (A) both CBC and TSN have reported that Crosby and the Pens are close on a (roughly) 10-year, $90,000,000 deal...and (B) Sid's contract can still be arranged for him to earn league max salary ($14,000,000) in the early years of the contract, and then take $5,000,000 (+/-) near the back end ???

It seems pretty clear to me at this point that he and Fehr aren't planning to wreck our cap.

From what I've read, the amount was not confirmed and that the $9 million salary was speculation from the CBC team and several anonymous GMs. Sounds more like educated guessing as opposed to official reporting.


In almost every case such as this, the number they report is pretty close to the actual end result. I'd be quite surprised if they're reporting around $9,000,000 based on some random guy's best guess...and then it turns out to be a 12M cap hit or something like that. It's going to be around $9,000,000.

I'm not saying they aren't well-connected and knowledgeable. I'm simply saying that they didn't report it as fact -- that Crosby's camp is seeking $9 million per season. Instead, what I saw/read was that 10 years is the term that is confirmed and that $9 million per season is the amount based on speculation. That number could be dead on, slightly off, or way off. I just wouldn't take speculation as gospel when we've all seen big name and reputable reports speculate on trades, signings, etc and get them wrong.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby no name on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:38 pm

newarenanow wrote:
no name wrote:Ok me impling Sid retiring would run us into bankruptcy isn't true, but it wouldn't help our finanicial situation. Paying someone 9 milion a season when they are not playing and drawing in the fans at the gate wouldn't help that is for sure.

Salary structue and finances still bow down to supply and demand. No Sid, less demand = less money. Ok maybe not enough to run us into the ground but we might have not be able to spend to the cap max until that contact runs out. Its possible, by no mean am i guarenting it but a possibility none the less.


He is the best player in the world. He is asking for a long term contract with a very, very minimal raise on his previous contact over the next 10 years. He is leaving probably $4M or so a year on the table to stay with the Pens long term through the prime of his career. And there is an issue with this?

Sure, he can get another concussion, and be sidelined long term, or have to retire. But there are insurance polcies to protect the team with regard to this, and someone correct me if I"m wrong, but I don't know if there is any guaranteed money within these contracts. So if he retires, he is off the books.

He could be asking $14M or so a year (I think that is the max right now, correct me if I"m wrong). He is willing to leave like 33% of what he could be making maximum. ANd people want it to either be talked down further or not take the risk?

I think this is a can't lose situation for the Pens.


there is nothing wrong with what Sid wants, someone just asked does it worry you... and yes it does worry me but none the less i would sign Sid to the deal even so.

And one of your other points,Yes all NHL contracts are guarenteed, this was one point int he last CBA that the players wanted and the owner gave into. Thusly making teams ending up with the Redden and Soury contracts getting paid millions to play in the minors. And in cases of players retiring because of injury they are guarenteed the money either way. But there is the loop hole of keeping them the LTIR so they don't count against your cap, but you still have to pay them.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby no name on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:46 pm

columbia wrote:There's not a salary cap in baseball, so I don't see the situations as being comparable.

I think his point is, the premier player in the league kinda sets the salary structure for all players under him. If Ovi Sid and Malkin were making 6 million, not many other players in the league would dream of asking for more, they kinda set the best players salary structure.

Cap or no cap, a Mario or Wayne getting paid less than any other player in their era would be unheard of.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:51 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opinion ... guins.html

Some quotes from Elliott Friedmann's article:

More importantly, it's highly unlikely any Crosby contract can be insured against concussions, at least right now.

A friend of mine who works in the insurance business said, "The best they can hope for is he has a healthy year and someone decides to cover it a year from now." That is exactly when the extension would kick in


Talking to five NHL executives, I asked each one the same question: "If you said to your owner, 'I've completed a 10-year, $90-million deal with Sidney Crosby, but we can't insure it,' what would he say?"

All of them thought about it for a couple of seconds and then said some variation of, "He'd do it." Although, the assistant added: "I'd like to see you ask an owner this question." I'm working on it.


"He's [Crosby]," said one GM. "You know, it's a risk, but it's a risk you take. I'm sure his injuries are a sensitive subject, but the Penguins have the medical reports. They know him better than anyone else."

Noted a second GM: "If you don't do it, someone else is going to."

Added a third GM: "If you sign him to this deal and he gets hurt in two years, you're going to look stupid. But if you don't, he plays the next 10 years like he can and goes down as one of the best ever, you're going to look even more stupid."


3. The assistant GM quoted above said this kind of extension for Crosby and what it means for Malkin would absolutely result in a new address for Jordan Staal, although not necessarily this season. "You can't have $22 million invested in one position, especially if the cap gets tighter."
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby newarenanow on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:04 pm

no name wrote:there is nothing wrong with what Sid wants, someone just asked does it worry you... and yes it does worry me but none the less i would sign Sid to the deal even so.

And one of your other points,Yes all NHL contracts are guarenteed, this was one point int he last CBA that the players wanted and the owner gave into. Thusly making teams ending up with the Redden and Soury contracts getting paid millions to play in the minors. And in cases of players retiring because of injury they are guarenteed the money either way. But there is the loop hole of keeping them the LTIR so they don't count against your cap, but you still have to pay them.


It is a risk that is well worth taking though IMO. Because if Sid is healthy, and plays like the player he is, which I think is likely, the reward is far, far greater.

I have no worries. You don't let someone like Sid, a generational talent, walk because you are worried about his health, especially with something so unpredictable.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:05 pm

Yeah, good points. It is an insurance company...it's a pre-existing injury, so certainly some sort of rejection can be made there (or insanely high premium). Similar thing happened to Justin Williams...
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby darkstar57 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:17 pm

columbia wrote:
Bathgate wrote:Sid's been getting involved with the PA and having direct contact with Donald Fehr. I would expect Fehr to be pressuring Sid, as the league's biggest star, to set an example and to go for the maximum amount possible in salary, regardless if it hurts his chances of winning.


There's even less evidence to support this idea, than there is for Staal wanting to be traded.
In both cases it's none, mind you.


I agree, i think the issue would be sid not taking less money then he is making now, that could have an effect on other player negotiations.

Well Crosby took less money, why cant you would be the line in many negotiations.

Plus sid didn't take the maximum with his last contract,
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby Bathgate on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:47 pm

The Pens have to do the deal, but it's scary how much this parallels the Lemieux situation of the '90's. It's scary how high is the possibility of the scenario playing out the same: The star player is forced out of the game early, but still must be paid tens of millions. Without the star player, the team's on-ice fortunes decline dramatically. Attendance also declines dramatically. The team is put up for sale, but there are no buyers, so it goes bankrupt and is under severe threat of relocating to another city.

I worry more than most, because, despite 3 Stanley Cups, I have never lost the feeling that the Pens franchise is jinxed. Sorry, but as a fan for 45 years, I've seen it all and much of it has been ridiculously and improbably and unbelievably bad.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby newarenanow on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:52 pm

Bathgate wrote:I worry more than most, because, despite 3 Stanley Cups, I have never lost the feeling that the Pens franchise is jinxed. Sorry, but as a fan for 45 years, I've seen it all and much of it has been ridiculously and improbably and unbelievably bad.


Are you serious? I think probably 25 out of the other 31 remaining franchises would trade their histories and fortune in for ours.

Wow.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:59 pm

tfrizz wrote:
3. The assistant GM quoted above said this kind of extension for Crosby and what it means for Malkin would absolutely result in a new address for Jordan Staal, although not necessarily this season. "You can't have $22 million invested in one position, especially if the cap gets tighter."


i guess this is different somehow than having $21.4 million in one position when the cap was already tighter. oooook?

this news has nothing to do with staal's future with the club
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby penny lane on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:01 pm

jinxed... see flyers with their endless quest for a goalie. montreal 93... last canadien team to win the cup.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby Bathgate on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:09 pm

newarenanow wrote:
Bathgate wrote:I worry more than most, because, despite 3 Stanley Cups, I have never lost the feeling that the Pens franchise is jinxed. Sorry, but as a fan for 45 years, I've seen it all and much of it has been ridiculously and improbably and unbelievably bad.


Are you serious? I think probably 25 out of the other 31 remaining franchises would trade their histories and fortune in for ours.

Wow.


You might be right, but they would be doing it for the Cups and the stars, but they would be getting a ton of twisted heartbreak in return, including the bankruptcies and the strangely short-circuited careers of those stars.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby newarenanow on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:32 pm

Bathgate wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
Bathgate wrote:I worry more than most, because, despite 3 Stanley Cups, I have never lost the feeling that the Pens franchise is jinxed. Sorry, but as a fan for 45 years, I've seen it all and much of it has been ridiculously and improbably and unbelievably bad.


Are you serious? I think probably 25 out of the other 31 remaining franchises would trade their histories and fortune in for ours.

Wow.


You might be right, but they would be doing it for the Cups and the stars, but they would be getting a ton of twisted heartbreak in return, including the bankruptcies and the strangely short-circuited careers of those stars.


Other franchises have gone through financial misfortunes and even worse, moves. The Hartford Whalers, Winnipeg Jets, Atlanta Flames and Thrashers, Quebec Nordiques, Colorado Rockies, Oakland Seals, Minnesota North Stars have all moved during that time. Ottawa has had a bankruptcy, as have the Kings. Nashville was on the brink to move and Phoenix issue is still being resolved. Edmonton is lucky to still be around.

The Pens have turned out ok after those bankruptcies, and I think the ownership situation is great right now. And we have a brand new arena.

As for the stars and their short careers, I wasn't around for Brierre, so I can't speak to that, but even with all of Lemieux's health issues, he still played 13 seasons worth of games and had a marvelous career. Jagr was here for 11 years, and Malkin and Sid are still in the midst of their careers, so I don't know how those are shortlived.

Most star players, even when completely healthy, don't spend that amount of time with one franchise. Only a very small handful do.

I think we have been extremely fortunate as a franchise.

Like you said, 3 Cups, 4 Final appearances, 7 Division winners, have been to the playoffs like 20 times in the past 25 years, numerous Art Ross winners and Hart winners, among other awards. A presidents trophy. I mean, we have had a ton of success.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:55 pm

penny lane wrote:
no name wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
Froggy wrote:does the 10 year term worry anyone else?


No.


Wait wasn't there another superstar who retired early that eventually pushed a certin franchise into bankruptcy??? Can't remember his name though...


Ron Burkle v Howard Baldwin finances... I'm hoping the league and Burkle finances hold strong.
My hope is that Sid plays out this contract and opts for another. :D The greying 2 headed monster.


While I am sure Mario retiring hurt sales of course, selling off you assets for a quick payday was pretty rough. Baldwin just didn't have the capital. I guess he did what he had to do but times are different now.
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Re: Crosby contract update/rumor?

Postby Bathgate on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:58 pm

newarenanow wrote:
Bathgate wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
Bathgate wrote:I worry more than most, because, despite 3 Stanley Cups, I have never lost the feeling that the Pens franchise is jinxed. Sorry, but as a fan for 45 years, I've seen it all and much of it has been ridiculously and improbably and unbelievably bad.


Are you serious? I think probably 25 out of the other 31 remaining franchises would trade their histories and fortune in for ours.

Wow.


You might be right, but they would be doing it for the Cups and the stars, but they would be getting a ton of twisted heartbreak in return, including the bankruptcies and the strangely short-circuited careers of those stars.


Other franchises have gone through financial misfortunes and even worse, moves. The Hartford Whalers, Winnipeg Jets, Atlanta Flames and Thrashers, Quebec Nordiques, Colorado Rockies, Oakland Seals, Minnesota North Stars have all moved during that time. Ottawa has had a bankruptcy, as have the Kings. Nashville was on the brink to move and Phoenix issue is still being resolved. Edmonton is lucky to still be around.

The Pens have turned out ok after those bankruptcies, and I think the ownership situation is great right now. And we have a brand new arena.

As for the stars and their short careers, I wasn't around for Brierre, so I can't speak to that, but even with all of Lemieux's health issues, he still played 13 seasons worth of games and had a marvelous career. Jagr was here for 11 years, and Malkin and Sid are still in the midst of their careers, so I don't know how those are shortlived.

Most star players, even when completely healthy, don't spend that amount of time with one franchise. Only a very small handful do.

I think we have been extremely fortunate as a franchise.

Like you said, 3 Cups, 4 Final appearances, 7 Division winners, have been to the playoffs like 20 times in the past 25 years, numerous Art Ross winners and Hart winners, among other awards. A presidents trophy. I mean, we have had a ton of success.


This is veering off into what could be a new thread entitled: "Is the Pens Franchise Jinxed?" You can certainly argue that since the team has never relocated, it is better off than those that did, but once those teams relocated, their history in the original city stopped, and so did any additional bad luck. For the shear volume of crazy misfortune befalling a franchise in one city over a long period, I feel confident to say that nothing can top the Pens. I could write a book on nothing but the misfortune. Suffice to say that much of the nuttiness occurred between 1967 and 1990, before any Cups. But there’s been plenty of gut-wrenching stuff since, as you know.
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