Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:24 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
mikey287 wrote:
Nizzy wrote:Wow already completely forgot about Lovejoy. Why didn't we move him at the draft for like a 5th or 6th or something?


Why would someone give us a 5th for him? Players like Lovejoy are a dime a dozen, why not just wait a week and sign your own? Worst case scenario, there's another dozen of him on waivers in the first week of October. Not reason to really give up an asset for a player that is waiver-eligible and isn't a guarantee to make your team. By acquiring him, you lock him into your NHL roster...doesn't make sense to do on June 22nd.

I'm still wondering where those people are who were defending Lovejoy as something of the second coming a couple years ago. Either way he needs waived and planted in the AHL unless the Pens really need him, and if someone grabs him off waivers then great.


I thought he'd end up being better than Engelland. I'm not sure I'm totally sold otherwise even. But I can't wrap my head around people that see either of those players having ceiling of 2nd pairing d-men. I guess I just see things a little differently is all...but their ceilings look quite clear to me, that's not glass either, that's concrete...
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Mongoose87 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:32 pm

I like Engelland better, because he fills two roles, but I only like him doing that with the least ice time on the team.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:41 pm

steelhammer wrote:
pugilist13 wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:I don't really understand this downplaying of Engellend's abilities. Is he a top pairing dman? Not right now, but look at the difference in his development from his rookie year to last year. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think he could keep getting better and be a 3rd/4th dman. Depending on how things play out with who the Pens acquire, he could very well be in that position at times.

I just think sometimes people on this board as very quick to pigeon-hold players into what they "are" or "will be" without seeing how they develop.

Nice post Hugo. I often get crucified on this board because i mention the guys name. I just happen to like the guy, and what he brings to the bottom pair. Look around the league at other bottom pairs. Loaded with young guys getting their feet wet or journeymen types that have been playing that role for much of their careers. Expanded role is possible.


The question is how much will Engelland improve? Based on how he improved over the last two season, and especially how much he improved last season, I think it is very fair to say that he will still be able to progress next season. His skating in particular has come a long way. Not everyone in the top 4 is going to be an all-star. The hope is that someone who comes cheap can be complementary to someone who is a lot better and who is paid a lot more. That's the only way we will be able to even think of signing someone like Suter, and or giving Letang a huge raise in a couple seasons. At that time we won't be able to afford to pay our 4th D $3M or more.


From the type of Dman Engellend is, the sky is the limit with how much he can improve. This may seem contradictory to what I was just saying, but I think it's safe to say he's NOT going to be a Suter-type dman, or even a Letang type, however I think as he improves he will be able to keep up with the speed better making him more sound positionally, fine tune his passing and probably knock in two or three goals. Dmen like that are not a dime and dozen, especially ones that can hit and fight like he does. I think he if really continues to progress, he'll be in between the styles of Orpik and Scuderi. Like Orpik was for a long time, I think his puck-moving abilities are very over-looked.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:48 pm

Engelland moves the puck like this.

1. Get puck out of the corner.
2. Identify forechecker.
3. Skate slowly (although I think he feels he's going fast) down the middle-right side of the defensive zone.
4. Stop moving his feet to try to fend off the forechecker physically while still continuing to lug the puck.
5. Like a marathon runner suffering from an asthma attack, he feels he can push himself to the finish line "the red line" before he konks out.
6. Gets to within 10-20 feet of the redline and turns it over as the second wave of forecheck is obviously on him and he has no vision to make a pass or chip because he can't multi-task on the rink.
7. Opponents go the other way 3 on 2 if we're lucky (meaning someone mildly intelligent on the weak side is watching this travesty take place - Dupuis, Crosby, Adams) otherwise, 3 on 1.
8. Goal. Engelland is back just in time to pull the puck out from behind Fleury.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:50 pm

If a 30-year old fringe NHLer can have "sky is the limit" potential...I can't imagine what you think of Eric Tangradi, hell even...anyone. everyone.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby bhaw on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:57 pm

This conversation is getting weird. I would say Engelland is a good bottom pairing guy, nothing more nothing less. And as a bottom pairing guy there will be times he looks good enough and is forced to play top 4 minutes due to injuries and times when he struggles and sits in the press box.

I don't think his puck moving is the worst I've ever seen, but I definitely witnessed (in person for one) a few absolutely terrible turnovers due to his puck movement prowess. The ones where he tried to stick handle in front of Fleury and forgot the puck, leaving a forechecker all alone with a puck and MAF.

I find the "sky is the limit" comment very weird... I love optimism, but that's a little intense.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby steelhammer on Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:33 pm

mikey287 wrote:Engelland moves the puck like this.

1. Get puck out of the corner.
2. Identify forechecker.
3. Skate slowly (although I think he feels he's going fast) down the middle-right side of the defensive zone.
4. Stop moving his feet to try to fend off the forechecker physically while still continuing to lug the puck.
5. Like a marathon runner suffering from an asthma attack, he feels he can push himself to the finish line "the red line" before he konks out.
6. Gets to within 10-20 feet of the redline and turns it over as the second wave of forecheck is obviously on him and he has no vision to make a pass or chip because he can't multi-task on the rink.
7. Opponents go the other way 3 on 2 if we're lucky (meaning someone mildly intelligent on the weak side is watching this travesty take place - Dupuis, Crosby, Adams) otherwise, 3 on 1.
8. Goal. Engelland is back just in time to pull the puck out from behind Fleury.


I'm not saying that above scenario has never happened, but that's not typical of Engelland. Engo actually seems to have a hot potato effect with the puck and doesn't hold onto it very long. He seemed to specialize in gunning the puck from his own circle to the red line to set up a touch pass deep into the opponents zone. You see the same effect when he is at the point on offense as he tries to get the puck on goal ASAP. He started to lug the puck toward the end of the season, but honestly I feel like that was a coaches decision to evaluate his ability to do such. He joined a few rushes and actually didn't look too bad doing so. He's not great by any means, but he is at least adequate in my opinion. His stick work and angling on defense got a lot better as well. Remember that game where he shut Ovechkin down on numerous occasions? He was there.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby no name on Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:51 pm

I believe its Bylsmas system that these kind of things happen. All defencemen at one time or another are allowed to go in deep or follow the play up ice. And lets face it Lovejoy and Engelland have no right bieng in the offensive zone when the forwards have it in deep and they man the points just sending it around the boards for the forwards to cycle the puck. Bylsmas system should limit thoes guys to just guarding the point once the forwards have gained the zone. Fix the system and Lovejoy and Engellands mistakes should decrease. Though they are just marginal talented NHL dmen.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:55 pm

mikey287 wrote:If a 30-year old fringe NHLer can have "sky is the limit" potential...I can't imagine what you think of Eric Tangradi, hell even...anyone. everyone.


You're making a very black and white statement that I don't feel is that simple. Yeah, he's 30 which is obviously very late in the game to make the jump into the NHL.

However, that doesn't change the fact he's been playing in the AHL the past five years. The AHL is not the NHL. Having ten years experience in the AHL still wouldn't prepare you for certain aspects of the NHL. For more hockey players, it takes a few seasons to really adjust to the speed of the game. It's a 180 from the speed in the AHL. It's going to take anyone time to be able to think, move and act at the NHL speed.

So, when I say the sky's the limit for a thirty year old player, I think it's a very fair assessment of what any player needs to go through before they've really reached their full NHL potential.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby KG on Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:55 pm

Engelland is a 6th defensman ideally on a good team....

Not really sure what the debate is...
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:58 pm

steelhammer wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Engelland moves the puck like this.

1. Get puck out of the corner.
2. Identify forechecker.
3. Skate slowly (although I think he feels he's going fast) down the middle-right side of the defensive zone.
4. Stop moving his feet to try to fend off the forechecker physically while still continuing to lug the puck.
5. Like a marathon runner suffering from an asthma attack, he feels he can push himself to the finish line "the red line" before he konks out.
6. Gets to within 10-20 feet of the redline and turns it over as the second wave of forecheck is obviously on him and he has no vision to make a pass or chip because he can't multi-task on the rink.
7. Opponents go the other way 3 on 2 if we're lucky (meaning someone mildly intelligent on the weak side is watching this travesty take place - Dupuis, Crosby, Adams) otherwise, 3 on 1.
8. Goal. Engelland is back just in time to pull the puck out from behind Fleury.


I'm not saying that above scenario has never happened, but that's not typical of Engelland. Engo actually seems to have a hot potato effect with the puck and doesn't hold onto it very long. He seemed to specialize in gunning the puck from his own circle to the red line to set up a touch pass deep into the opponents zone. You see the same effect when he is at the point on offense as he tries to get the puck on goal ASAP. He started to lug the puck toward the end of the season, but honestly I feel like that was a coaches decision to evaluate his ability to do such. He joined a few rushes and actually didn't look too bad doing so. He's not great by any means, but he is at least adequate in my opinion. His stick work and angling on defense got a lot better as well. Remember that game where he shut Ovechkin down on numerous occasions? He was there.


I think what's also overlooked is how good he is skating with the puck when he's on the top of his game. Yeah, as Mikey has mentioned, he's had those moments, but I can vividly remember him moving the puck from his own zone into the other with not just ease, but skill. Those were moments where I did a double-take and thought "who the heck was that?" This is why I think there is still much more to his game that can develop and improve despite being thirty years old. At the end of the day, he's no different than anyone else who just finished their second NHL season.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:00 pm

KG wrote:Engelland is a 6th defensman ideally on a good team....

Not really sure what the debate is...


The debate is saying he WILL NEVER be any better than that. My argument isn't so much that HE WILL be, it's that the potential is there, he's getting better and better, so to say he WILL NEVER is simply not fair just yet. I don't know for sure what his ceiling is, I'm just saying no person can say what that is just yet.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:13 pm

I'm glad we didn't trade for Brandon Sutter after his rookie year. Everyone would be crying that we traded for a 1st round bust and that he will never be more than a 4th line center!
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby skullman80 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:17 pm

Brandon Sutter after his rookie year.. was what 19?

Engelland didn't start showing any signs of life at the NHL level till he was almost 30.

Pretty big difference I think there.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:45 pm

skullman80 wrote:Brandon Sutter after his rookie year.. was what 19?

Engelland didn't start showing any signs of life at the NHL level till he was almost 30.

Pretty big difference I think there.


Again, my analogy is that age is irrelevant here. You happen to be a rational thinker, but others will jump on a player for not being at full potential after their first ten games. I think being on this board as long as you have, you'd recognize that.

My point is that there is still time and that time will tell. As far as NHL experience goes, thirty years old is no different than nineteen. If you've been in the NHL for two seasons, you're still on the development track.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:33 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
skullman80 wrote:Brandon Sutter after his rookie year.. was what 19?

Engelland didn't start showing any signs of life at the NHL level till he was almost 30.

Pretty big difference I think there.


Again, my analogy is that age is irrelevant here. You happen to be a rational thinker, but others will jump on a player for not being at full potential after their first ten games. I think being on this board as long as you have, you'd recognize that.

My point is that there is still time and that time will tell. As far as NHL experience goes, thirty years old is no different than nineteen. If you've been in the NHL for two seasons, you're still on the development track.


There's not a word in this post that could even tip the "correctness" scale to halfway, except for "you happen to be a rational thinker" because it's talking about somebody else...


You obviously have no real sense of logic...just the point of view of mikey287. This is your flaw and makes you less intelligent than everyone else here. Thus...my last reply to anything else you have to say.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:35 pm

Make it the last reply to anything, anyone says here and you got a deal.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby pfim on Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:50 pm

Ehh, age isn't irrelevant when you're comparing how much a 19 year old can improve to a 30 year old.

If Engeland is in the top 4 I hope the Pens like golf.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby thepittman on Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:53 pm

mikey287 wrote:Engelland moves the puck like this.

1. Get puck out of the corner.
2. Identify forechecker.
3. Skate slowly (although I think he feels he's going fast) down the middle-right side of the defensive zone.
4. Stop moving his feet to try to fend off the forechecker physically while still continuing to lug the puck.
5. Like a marathon runner suffering from an asthma attack, he feels he can push himself to the finish line "the red line" before he konks out.
6. Gets to within 10-20 feet of the redline and turns it over as the second wave of forecheck is obviously on him and he has no vision to make a pass or chip because he can't multi-task on the rink.
7. Opponents go the other way 3 on 2 if we're lucky (meaning someone mildly intelligent on the weak side is watching this travesty take place - Dupuis, Crosby, Adams) otherwise, 3 on 1.
8. Goal. Engelland is back just in time to pull the puck out from behind Fleury.


I've never seen this, Engelland was solid for us all season
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby pugilist13 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:04 pm

I'm an Engelland fan. I've been bashed on this board many times for stating so. Engo is a bottom pair D man that can give you 15 minutes a night and add some toughness. Whats the crime. This team has bigger issues than the 6th D spot. That is all.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby lemieuxReturns on Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:10 pm

thepittman wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Engelland moves the puck like this.

1. Get puck out of the corner.
2. Identify forechecker.
3. Skate slowly (although I think he feels he's going fast) down the middle-right side of the defensive zone.
4. Stop moving his feet to try to fend off the forechecker physically while still continuing to lug the puck.
5. Like a marathon runner suffering from an asthma attack, he feels he can push himself to the finish line "the red line" before he konks out.
6. Gets to within 10-20 feet of the redline and turns it over as the second wave of forecheck is obviously on him and he has no vision to make a pass or chip because he can't multi-task on the rink.
7. Opponents go the other way 3 on 2 if we're lucky (meaning someone mildly intelligent on the weak side is watching this travesty take place - Dupuis, Crosby, Adams) otherwise, 3 on 1.
8. Goal. Engelland is back just in time to pull the puck out from behind Fleury.


I've never seen this, Engelland was solid for us all season



Yea, I agree. Engelland is actually a pretty decent player for us. Certainly makes some mistakes every once in a while, but not one person on our defense can say they don't. He should be one of the last players to be criticized.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby dman66 on Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:33 pm

Yeah, I don't get the big deal here. Engelland was fine last year on the third pairing, but I don't think I'd want an extended look in the top 4 for him. Ideally, he'd be a 6/7, preferably a 7 because one of the younger prospects, who have more potential, beat him out. If he stays as the #6, I'm fine with that though too.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby Rylan on Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:47 pm

pugilist13 wrote:I'm an Engelland fan. I've been bashed on this board many times for stating so. Engo is a bottom pair D man that can give you 15 minutes a night and add some toughness. Whats the crime. This team has bigger issues than the 6th D spot. That is all.


This. Recognize that Engelland is a bottom pairing and live with it. Its not a crime to be the 6th d-man.
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby bhaw on Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:21 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
skullman80 wrote:Brandon Sutter after his rookie year.. was what 19?

Engelland didn't start showing any signs of life at the NHL level till he was almost 30.

Pretty big difference I think there.


Again, my analogy is that age is irrelevant here.


Come again? There is no difference between a 19 year old with 2 years experience and a 30 year old with 2 years experience? I don't know why you're upset that people are disagreeing with you because I would say 99%+ of analysts, fans, coaches, GMs, and players would say otherwise. I'd be willing to put money on the fact that even Engelland would disagree with you here.

So is your notion that Pesonen never got a fair shot and if we just gave him 2 years to develop, he easily had a shot at being a top 10 NHL player?
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Re: Shero states he plans to trade a defenseman or two

Postby bhaw on Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:22 pm

Rylan wrote:
pugilist13 wrote:I'm an Engelland fan. I've been bashed on this board many times for stating so. Engo is a bottom pair D man that can give you 15 minutes a night and add some toughness. Whats the crime. This team has bigger issues than the 6th D spot. That is all.


This. Recognize that Engelland is a bottom pairing and live with it. Its not a crime to be the 6th d-man.


Exactly. It's like pushing to move TK into the top 6. Sometimes you're just a 3rd liner and there's nothing wrong with that.
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