Fleury's last chance?

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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby newarenanow on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:29 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Drafting goalies in later rounds because we have 0 goalie prospects is an indictment of Fleury somehow? That's unreal. The Kings used their first pick last year on a goalie...indictment of Quick/Bernier? The Bruins used their first round pick on a goalie...indictment of Rask?


It's more of the timing of all of it. Of course we need Goalie prospects, but the timing of all this just seems weird: First round exit, signing of Vokoun, drafting two goalies in the 3rd and 4th round? I don't know...just seems more than coincidence.


I really don't think it does. If anything, I think they realize they need more in the system to help MAF during the regular season. With Johnson having a bad year/being hurt, the Pens realized how empty their closet was to help out.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby pfim on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:29 pm

If he has a poor season I can see them looking in another direction. But Vokoun and drafting two guys in the 3rd and 4th round have nothing to do with it.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby SoupOrSam on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:31 pm

There was zero depth below Fleury. There's no conclusion that needs to be drawn.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby NashvilleCat on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:32 pm

Let's see:

1. Fleury posted a record number of wins this year, put up good numbers, sparked some trophy talk during the year
2. Johnson and Theissen were awful and not as good as needed respectively
3. The defense and forwards took a vacation from playing defense and killing penalties late in the year and playoffs
4. Fleury played more games than he should have and faded down the stretch
5. At the end of the season the GM said he was going to get rid of some defensemen
6. Said GM signs a veteran goalie at a decent price to take the load off of probably the best goalie in franchise history
7. Replenish the goalie stockpile for the franchise happens - it's not like they took a goalie #1 or acquired a young gun to come in and push to be the #1

Sounds to me like a team trying to help shore up its defense and protect a player who is part of the best core group of players in the league (even if Giroux is the bestest player ever in the history of all sports). If Fleury plays like he did in the playoffs then yes, he's in trouble. But then again, if the rest of the team plays the same way in front of him they're in trouble too. But then again, so are the coaches and maybe even the GM.
Last edited by NashvilleCat on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby meow on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:33 pm

Step 1: Draft goalies
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby NashvilleCat on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:35 pm

meow wrote:Step 1: Draft goalies

I thought step 1 was draft defensemen?
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:35 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Drafting goalies in later rounds because we have 0 goalie prospects is an indictment of Fleury somehow? That's unreal. The Kings used their first pick last year on a goalie...indictment of Quick/Bernier? The Bruins used their first round pick on a goalie...indictment of Rask?


It's more of the timing of all of it. Of course we need Goalie prospects, but the timing of all this just seems weird: First round exit, signing of Vokoun, drafting two goalies in the 3rd and 4th round? I don't know...just seems more than coincidence.


Seems like standard operating procedure to me when looking at the rest of the league. Some teams will tell you that they try to draft a goalie every year or at least 2 out of 3 to keep the system stocked. And us signing a backup goalie because we didn't have one is "more than coincidence?" Sure, he's a high level backup, but isn't that what we want? Isn't that addressing a weakness? Johnson sucked last year.

If we had traded Despres and 1st for Luongo. If we had traded our first and Harrington for Lindback and signed Vokoun also...then, ok, you got something there, something is up...but even if we drafted Oscar Dansk at 22 in this draft, I wouldn't have thought it odd at all. That's just standard draft procedure. The weakness in the organization was from below Fleury and down. No 2, no 3, no 4, no prospects. Gotta get those things somehow...very standard.


I appreciate your cordial response and there is a lot of validity to what you're saying. As I replied to someone else, it's all about timing. We are very thin in the goalie department when it comes to goalie prospects, the timing of all this coming after a stinker in the 1st round when on paper, we should have at least made it to the conference finals. Philly was no joke of a team and drawing them first obviously brings things to head a lot faster. But the timing of that, followed by signing Vokoun which is arguably not your average back-up signing and then drafting goalies so high in the draft.

Goalies are just not drafted that high, that frequently unless you're preparing to bring them up faster, which again as you said isn't uncommon. The timing off all it just stands out to me that there is a little more sense of urgency.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby meow on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:36 pm

NashvilleCat wrote:
meow wrote:Step 1: Draft goalies

I thought step 1 was draft defensemen?

Hmm...interesting. Interesting indeed.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby NashvilleCat on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:38 pm

meow wrote:
NashvilleCat wrote:
meow wrote:Step 1: Draft goalies

I thought step 1 was draft defensemen?

Hmm...interesting. Interesting indeed.

I think it's also steps 2, 3, and 4
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Pitts on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:39 pm

I really don't think a 3rd or 4th round goalie is going to unseat a 1st round goalie any time soon. In fact, I'd wager that 1st rounder will be here long after those 3rd and 4th rounders have had their chance.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby pfim on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:41 pm

The draft picks won't be signed for another two years, and they won't be playing the NHL for a bit longer, if ever. I really don't think they have anything to do with Fleury. If Fleury flops somehow, Shero isn't going to wait 4 years to replace him.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:41 pm

Also, drafting goalies in the middle rounds to replace your current goalie in the short term? Lulz.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby newarenanow on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:42 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:Goalies are just not drafted that high, that frequently unless you're preparing to bring them up faster, which again as you said isn't uncommon. The timing off all it just stands out to me that there is a little more sense of urgency.


I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you on this. I don't see anything strange and see it as the Pens finalize realizing they need more/stronger depth at goaltending.

You might turn out being right, but I just don't see it.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby count2infinity on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:43 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Also, drafting goalies in the middle rounds to replace your current goalie in the short term? Lulz.


Trust me it worked for... umm. Wait, you're right.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby SoupOrSam on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:47 pm

Shero is gone before MAF ever is. Shero drafting nothing but defenseman, again... Coincidence I think not. I think Shero is trying to get Shero fired. He's setting it up so he can work for Carolina. Carolina gave up too much for Staal and they know it and now Rutherford is going to be fired. There's a reason Shero didn't take Forsberg at 8. He now wants the Pens to lose, I mean look... he hasn't even required Sutter to talk to the media yet.

That was fun.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:47 pm

NashvilleCat wrote:Let's see:

1. Fleury posted a record number of wins this year, put up good numbers, sparked some trophy talk during the year
2. Johnson and Theissen were awful and not as good as needed respectively
3. The defense and forwards took a vacation from playing defense and killing penalties late in the year and playoffs
4. Fleury played more games than he should have and faded down the stretch
5. At the end of the season the GM said he was going to get rid of some defensemen
6. Said GM signs a veteran goalie at a decent price to take the load off of probably the best goalie in franchise history

Sounds to me like a team trying to help shore up its defense and protect a player who is part of the best core group of players in the league (even if Giroux is the bestest player ever in the history of all sports). If Fleury plays like he did in the playoffs then yes, he's in trouble. But then again, if the rest of the team plays the same way in front of him they're in trouble too. But then again, so are the coaches and maybe even the GM.


Addressing point number 1:
I agree and that was amazing, and I don't think Fleury gets the credit he deserves for that. I think he made our defense look far better than they were. IMO, if the Pens weren't such a juggernaut offensively, this season would have been very different. I'm not knocking Fleury's stats, but they're not impressive for winning as many games as he did. I'm not saying that shows he played sub-par, but I think that shows the weakness of the team in front of him. If the Pens thought he was the main reason, obviously we wouldn't see the urgency of changing our of dmen, but they're obviously doing things to ensure we're strong at goal and that's just smart building, but at the same time the rhetoric out of the organization is a little suspect along with the timing of everything else.

The other thing I meant to bring up when mentioning by conversation with my friend the Rangers fan is that it's always interesting to see other sides of how your team is viewed. We can try as hard as he want, but when we as Pens fans critique our team, there's always a degree of homerism whether we like to admit it or not. Looking at the three seasons post-cup win, we can make lots of excuses for Fleury and plenty of them are valid, but no matter what we say, the fact are true: The Pens have been very un-impressive in the playoffs since then and Fleury's play always comes into question from people who are not Pens fans.

2009/2010 - ousted by the Habs. We can argue a lot of things. The Pens as a whole just played bad that series.
2010/2011 - Losing in the first round to the Bolts. Obviously the team was a broken version of the Pens not having Malkin, Sid or Cooke. The Pens were impressive that year despite all they faced.
2011/2012 - We can argue(which I do) that Fleury was overworked the entire season and you can only lean on a player for so long.

Hearing other people talk about Fleury whether I agree with them or not is always interesting. I personally feel that Fleury is not only elite, but not as highly regarded by the Media as he should be. Others argue if he's that good, then he should be able to shine behind the team the Penguins had this year despite their weak D.

I'm not turning on Fleury, I don't want him to go and I have faith he can bring us another cup. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate in a sense, but in reality, I think the timing of things that would normally appear like business as usual is not so business as usual.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:49 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
newarenanow wrote:I don't think it's a "last chance" IMO.

Vokoun was signed to take some of the workload off of MAF. IF they wanted to send a message, I don't think they sign a 36 year old goalie for two years. As for teh draft, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pens haven't drafted a goaltender in a few years (since 2008) I believe. The two goalies they selected were like 83rd and 113th overall. Chances are, these guys don't see the NHL, or see limited time (only time will tell).

I think MAF is still their go to guy and will be for the next few years. I think if he continues to be inconsitent when it matters most, the Pens will one day move on. But I dont' think this year is the time. Outside of Game 5 (I think) last year, he played well in the playoffs. This year he sucked outside of Game 5.

But so did the whole team.


I didn't mean Vokoun was brought in to take MAFs job, obviously not. Here's the thing, I love the idea of having a goaltending tandem like this. I think people around the league are underestimating how much stronger this makes the Pens. I fully expect Fleury to perform better with some of the slack taken off. I really believe our D was so atrocious this past season and it was MAF who bailed them out, yet the D got the credit. BUT, if this doesn't work and he has a stinker this year, I think this will make the Pens re-evaluate.

As far as your draft comments...third round goalies do see NHL time. 3rd round is actually a good sign. Rarely are goaltenders taken earlier.
Lunqvist: 7th round
Tim Thomas: 9th round
Pekka Rinne: 8th round
Mike Smith: 5th round

The list goes on and on. Goalies taken in the 1st and 2nd round don't happen as frequently. Rare cases like Fleury, Brodeur, Luongo...


I've been telling people that for two years, as well. You'd be surprised at how many fans are actually quick to agree. For as much as people get on Fleury's case, there are many fans out there that realize the situation.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:50 pm

pfim wrote:The draft picks won't be signed for another two years, and they won't be playing the NHL for a bit longer, if ever. I really don't think they have anything to do with Fleury. If Fleury flops somehow, Shero isn't going to wait 4 years to replace him.


I agree with you and I want to be proven wrong on this, believe me. I appreciate most of the commentary here. While you're right about when these guys might see NHL ice, it's still to me a symptom that the Pens see issues right now and want to gauge if Fleury has anything to do with it.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby PensFanInDC on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:50 pm

Last chance to what? Win another Stanley cup?
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby penny lane on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:55 pm

Insert last chance , last dance for coach Dan, before Shero, before Flower.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:59 pm

penny lane wrote:Insert last chance , last dance for coach Dan, before Shero, before Flower.


This statement is one that I hope is true. I think Dan is the biggest weakness, but Shero seems to really love Dan.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Tico Rick on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:00 pm

penny lane wrote:Insert last chance , last dance for coach Dan, before Shero, before Flower.


I agree with this as well. The year ahead will be a big year for many in the Pens' organization.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:11 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
penny lane wrote:Insert last chance , last dance for coach Dan, before Shero, before Flower.


This statement is one that I hope is true. I think Dan is the biggest weakness, but Shero seems to really love Dan.


It's become pretty clear to me (and others) that the longer the Pens have been away from Therrien's system, the worse they've gotten defensively. Can't be all personnel.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:13 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
penny lane wrote:Insert last chance , last dance for coach Dan, before Shero, before Flower.


This statement is one that I hope is true. I think Dan is the biggest weakness, but Shero seems to really love Dan.


It's become pretty clear to me (and others) that the longer the Pens have been away from Therrien's system, the worse they've gotten defensively. Can't be all personnel.


Devastating for Orpik in particular, and for the cohesion of forwards and defensemen as a 5 man defensive unit. Martin would thrive under Therrien's system as well.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Bunkerman535 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:30 pm

Fleurys is going on 28, and still has five good years left in him. The goalies drafted are for well down the road, and any backup is just that. Don't expect these young kids to come in and challenge MAF, they don't have the pedigree.
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