Alternative.....

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Alternative.....

Postby saints11 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:16 am

I know that many Pens fans are hoping for Parise and Suter; or either one. However, if they strike out; are possibly Shane Doan anvalternative. Doan can still play and would provide leadership and a veteran presence. Defensively, if it is true that Shero is in search of a #1 to pair with Letang, I'm not sure who fits that mold. It sure isn't Garrison or Wideman. I guess that is why I was delighted when rumors were swirling last Friday when rumors said Shero struck out on gaining Suter's rigths and then moved Z and Kennedy to the 'Yotes for Yandle; which proved to be false. I know Phoenix supposedly wants/needs forward help and would be willing to move Yandle to get it; but we're not good partners there. I thuink they may have asked for Kunitz and/or Bennett for Yandle.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Defence21 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:49 am

If Parise signs elsewhere, Doan should be the second choice. And, since he would make considerably less than Parise, it could give the option to go after another forward as well, such as Latendresse, as Mikey as suggested on numerous occassions.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby no name on Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:58 am

Latendresse, this guy has been injury prone most of his career. If i was sure he could handle a whole NHL season i wouldn't mind signing him.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby penny lane on Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:07 am

bobby ryan / nash. free agents drop off after top 6 ?
Defense not the sexy or splashy move, but I'd rather get suter. IF he wants to be here.
Of course if suter has seen the state of the pens defense against philly... 8-)
I wouldn't mind hal gill back either.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:12 pm

It is still way early, but I am already starting to get the feeling that the Pens are going to miss out on both Parise and Suter.

On Parise, there is still a strong likelihood he could resign with NJ. I don't buy the crap that he wouldn't sign with someone in the division out of respect for NJ, but I do see the Wild being able to put together a better offer. The question comes down to the Wild being a strong enough contender, which I think the Pens win that category. I think the friends with Sid aspect is way over-played. For Parise, best plan I could see is the Pens attending a meeting at Parise's agents (which they plan to do), and have Shero, Bylsma, Sid, Geno, Orpik, Letang, and Fleury show up. Doubt that would happen though.

In terms of Suter, it has been said that he wants to stay in the Western conference. I have a strong feeling Detroit is going to snatch him up as a replacement for Lidstrom.

In terms of alternatives, I have never been a big fan of his, and I think he is overpaid, but I'm starting to jump on the Rick Nash possibility. One item that was mentioned in a recent article is that aside from Neal, the Pens are very small upfront in the top 6. The problem with Nash is his crappy contract, and even worse, Columbus has 3 defensemen signed to long term deals through 2016-2017. That means Martin would not be used as a trade chip, and I don't think the Pens have any assets on offense to pull in Nash.

I'd love to see Ilya Kovalchuk here, but that is a pipe dream. No way NJ would trade him in the division, and I'm not sure how well he would fit in Bylsma's system. He seemed to struggle going to NJ the first year and a half, I see the same issue here.

I think the Pens are going to need to decide on Parise or Suter, and go hard at one of them. I think they want Suter more, but being as loaded with D prospects as they are, not sure that is the right decision.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Pavel Bure on Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:12 pm

Most threads!!!!!!
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby ace1 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:51 pm

How about Brad Boyes?
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby ivand87 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:18 pm

saints11 wrote:... are possibly Shane Doan anvalternative.


:face:
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:19 pm

Defence21 wrote:If Parise signs elsewhere, Doan should be the second choice. And, since he would make considerably less than Parise, it could give the option to go after another forward as well, such as Latendresse, as Mikey as suggested on numerous occassions.

Doan, I think, will be considerably less than Parise, but considerably more than what he is worth.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Defence21 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:30 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:If Parise signs elsewhere, Doan should be the second choice. And, since he would make considerably less than Parise, it could give the option to go after another forward as well, such as Latendresse, as Mikey as suggested on numerous occassions.

Doan, I think, will be considerably less than Parise, but considerably more than what he is worth.

That may be the case, but this is a guy who might find more of his game on a team with such high-end talent that really lacked in Phoenix, where defense came first. I'm not saying he'll be a star or anything, but he might be worth as much as Kunitz, for example, and be just as productive.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:31 pm

Defence21 wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:If Parise signs elsewhere, Doan should be the second choice. And, since he would make considerably less than Parise, it could give the option to go after another forward as well, such as Latendresse, as Mikey as suggested on numerous occassions.

Doan, I think, will be considerably less than Parise, but considerably more than what he is worth.

That may be the case, but this is a guy who might find more of his game on a team with such high-end talent that really lacked in Phoenix, where defense came first. I'm not saying he'll be a star or anything, but he might be worth as much as Kunitz, for example, and be just as productive.

There's nothing wrong with your opinion, but I think we've beaten that idea to the ground. If A scores X with Team 1, he'll Score Y with the Penguins. Some times that's true, sometimes it's not. I don't think it's fair to do that anymore.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:38 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:If Parise signs elsewhere, Doan should be the second choice. And, since he would make considerably less than Parise, it could give the option to go after another forward as well, such as Latendresse, as Mikey as suggested on numerous occassions.

Doan, I think, will be considerably less than Parise, but considerably more than what he is worth.

That may be the case, but this is a guy who might find more of his game on a team with such high-end talent that really lacked in Phoenix, where defense came first. I'm not saying he'll be a star or anything, but he might be worth as much as Kunitz, for example, and be just as productive.

There's nothing wrong with your opinion, but I think we've beaten that idea to the ground. If A scores X with Team 1, he'll Score Y with the Penguins. Some times that's true, sometimes it's not. I don't think it's fair to do that anymore.


Case(s) in point: Ponikarovsky, Kovalev
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Defence21 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:17 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
Defence21 wrote:If Parise signs elsewhere, Doan should be the second choice. And, since he would make considerably less than Parise, it could give the option to go after another forward as well, such as Latendresse, as Mikey as suggested on numerous occassions.

Doan, I think, will be considerably less than Parise, but considerably more than what he is worth.

That may be the case, but this is a guy who might find more of his game on a team with such high-end talent that really lacked in Phoenix, where defense came first. I'm not saying he'll be a star or anything, but he might be worth as much as Kunitz, for example, and be just as productive.

There's nothing wrong with your opinion, but I think we've beaten that idea to the ground. If A scores X with Team 1, he'll Score Y with the Penguins. Some times that's true, sometimes it's not. I don't think it's fair to do that anymore.


Case(s) in point: Ponikarovsky, Kovalev

Contradictions: Guerin, Sullivan

Essentially, to me, it's all about fit. Kovalev and Pono just weren't fits. Doan fits the Penguins -- in my opinion, anyway. To expect 50 points out of him is more than fair.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:21 pm

Guerin and Sullivan arent good examples. They put up decent numbers with their old clubs but signed very generous deals with the Pens. (Guerin via low cost trade). My argument is premised on a predictable price tag on Doan.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:31 pm

Doan would be sick here. Veteran leadership, rocket shot, the kind of player that knows how to get to the net and keep his stick where Sid can hit it.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby DesertPenguin on Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:16 pm

The interesting thing about July 1st is how many factors are involved. Sid and Parise are friends, and Sid is (rumored to be) taking less money to allow Shero to stack the team. Shero knows Suter from Nashville and is determined to improve his defense. Does Parise want to be the top guy? Does he want to go home to Minnesota? Does Suter want to leave the Western Conference? Will either take less money to come here? If Parise signs a deal for 8+, I could see Neal being upset about taking 5. If Suter signs for 7.5m, what does Letang ask for on his next contract? Will Malkin agree to the same deal Sid gets, like he did last time, or does cap room need to be saved for him?

This is why Rayjean Shero is the man. He will have answers to all of these questions.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Defence21 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:43 am

TheHammer24 wrote:Guerin and Sullivan arent good examples. They put up decent numbers with their old clubs but signed very generous deals with the Pens. (Guerin via low cost trade). My argument is premised on a predictable price tag on Doan.

I'm not so sure Guerin was successful in NYI. He has 36 points in 61 games on the Island before being traded to Pittsburgh. SUllivan had 22 points in 44 games 2 years ago -- just before signing with the Penguins -- and 51 points in 82 games the year before. For comparison's sake, Doan had 50 points in 79 games last season, 60 in 72 the year before and 55 in 82 the year before that.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Sullivan and Guerin came to Pittsburgh and exceeded expectations. Now, remember, this is purely in response to the notion that all veterans who come in will flop as Kovalev and Ponikarovski did. It's just not the case.

Now, to your other point, salary. How much will Doan make and is he worth it? Well, it is the open market in a shallow free agent pool. His asking price will be higher than his worth -- but that's always the case in free agency. To me, though, he's worth as much as Kunitz, which is $3.75 million. Will he fit in will the Penguins and enhance his stats? Maybe. He might also meet the status quo and put him his typical 50-60 points. That's irrelevant to what he brings that doesn't show up on the scoresheet. The Penguins need that grizzled veteran. That Gary Roberts/Bill Guerin dominant personality from an elder-statesman, not to motivate the team, but to keep them in line. Doan can be that guy. He also is nasty mean, blocks shots, kilss penalties (though admittedly not like he used to), can stand in front of the net on the power play, etc, etc. He's the classic jack of all trades, master of none. The Penguins don't necessarily need more scoring. They have a trio of forwards in Crosby, Malkin, and Neal that can outscore pretty much any team. What they need are forwards who cover the intangibles, while not bogging down the scoring lines' effectiveness. Parise can do that. But if he doesn't sign here, Doan is probably the second best fit for such a role -- despite that fact that their talent levels are on completely different stratospheres.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:12 am

Defence21 wrote:Contradictions: Guerin, Sullivan

Essentially, to me, it's all about fit. Kovalev and Pono just weren't fits. Doan fits the Penguins -- in my opinion, anyway. To expect 50 points out of him is more than fair.


While Kovalev was at the end of his career, he was also far and away the most talented player on the team when he joined it. Whatever he did really has no bearing on whether or not he could fit with the Penguins, because that was not the Penguins.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Oneonta Penguin on Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:27 am

Defence21 wrote:If Parise signs elsewhere, Doan should be the second choice. And, since he would make considerably less than Parise, it could give the option to go after another forward as well, such as Latendresse, as Mikey as suggested on numerous occassions.


Pass on Latendresse ... he makes Ales Hemsky look healthy. The guy is a definite trip to the IR without question. There is a reason Minnesota dumped him.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby penny lane on Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:29 am

I don't want GM Shero reaching on 7/1. If he can't get the top notch folks, don't stretch for ray whitney. Don't stretch for the miro satan of 08. Their back up plans would lead to more trades. Nash may be fit here after all.
But , I am taking all of the talk in ... hockey talk in june is fun.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:05 am

I'd have no problem with them duplicating the Satan signing. Spend to the cap on one year deals if you don't like the guys that are available.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Fire0nice228 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:26 am

Oneonta Penguin wrote:
Defence21 wrote:If Parise signs elsewhere, Doan should be the second choice. And, since he would make considerably less than Parise, it could give the option to go after another forward as well, such as Latendresse, as Mikey as suggested on numerous occassions.


Pass on Latendresse ... he makes Ales Hemsky look healthy. The guy is a definite trip to the IR without question. There is a reason Minnesota dumped him.



http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/382 ... T3V.BivLYF

Latendresse has played quite a few games except the last two seasons. He had a season ending hip(I believe) injury after playing over 70 games the year before between MTL/MIN (and scored a 25 goals in 55 games for MIN after the trade) and then of course the concussion issues last season. Before that he actually didnt miss many games in his brief career.

The guy is a 6'2, 230 pound second round draft pick that is 25 years old and should be entering his prime, did I mention he plays WING? Pens should definately take a look at him
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby mikey287 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:34 am

^ at the "second round draft pick" comment...for the record, I had him on my draft board at 14 or 15, IIRC - not that it means a whole lot but I was very surprised he wasn't taken in the first round...but superstars Marek Zagrapan, Ryan O'Marra, Alex Bourret, Kenndal McArdle, Petr Kalus and Mike Blunden had to be picked first....always been a fan of his upside.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby Mr. Colby on Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:47 am

Latendresse would be an excellent acquisition...

The whole "staying healthy" thing wouldn't be as much of a concern for a guy like him because he's really more of a complementary part (who will be paid as such) and it wouldn't kill our team if he missed significant time.

I have my fingers crossed for this guy even if Parise or Suter is signed.
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Re: Alternative.....

Postby ace1 on Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:24 am

DesertPenguin wrote:The interesting thing about July 1st is how many factors are involved. Sid and Parise are friends, and Sid is (rumored to be) taking less money to allow Shero to stack the team. Shero knows Suter from Nashville and is determined to improve his defense. Does Parise want to be the top guy? Does he want to go home to Minnesota? Does Suter want to leave the Western Conference? Will either take less money to come here? If Parise signs a deal for 8+, I could see Neal being upset about taking 5. If Suter signs for 7.5m, what does Letang ask for on his next contract? Will Malkin agree to the same deal Sid gets, like he did last time, or does cap room need to be saved for him?

This is why Rayjean Shero is the man. He will have answers to all of these questions.


Couldn't agree more on all of your points. The factors and trying to piece the puzzle together are what makes this stuff so interesting. I can't wait until noon Sunday. I just hope Parise/Suter don't pull a Hossa, drag things out for three days, while everybody else is signing. One thing Shero has shown since the Hossa ordeal, is that he ain't messing around. However, with this being such a thin FA class ....

Yeah, if Sid is taking less and hoping Parise and Suter might do the same, Malkin and Letang will be very interesting. Do they follow suit? I think they do. I could see Sid signing for his lucky number again ..... $8.7.
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