Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby neophool on Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:44 pm

There is a gaping hole on D and on the top 6 right now. I'm gonna go ahead and say that none of Kuntiz, Dupuis, Cooke, improve on last years numbers. Unless Cooke gets a deserved long term shot on Sid's wing.

Loosing ZM is looking worse and worse the more time goes by. It was clearly to make a run at Suter/Parise for THIS SEASON, not next. If we get some second/third rate FAs on 1-2 year contracts, then the ZM trade is even worse then it looks on paper - and it looks AWFUL.

Pens as a team need either top end talent, or some serious sandpaper to be tough to play against. Suter is it, but I understand we are on the outside looking in with Suter. Parise is hard to play against in a Sid-like way, but he is as easily shut down/contained as Malkin or Sid was against Philly.

This team is seriously soft right now. Suter would have been a huge piece to fix that problem.

Oh well. Just hoping GM has a master plan to steal away Weber next year.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:56 pm

neophool wrote:This team is seriously soft right now. Suter would have been a huge piece to fix that problem.


suter's not exactly made of sandpaper.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:59 pm

Senka wrote:Staal will be on a first line with 30 goals. Sutter will be on the 3rd with 20? Darn.


would 35 vs 15 be more meaningful? because that's the more likely scenario.

the bigger issue than strict production is that we lost depth. until we know that our 2 guns can stay healthy, staal's talent would be necessity - not luxury. but without him, i don't know what happens if we go through the same crap this year with injuries...
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby neophool on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:03 pm

shmenguin wrote:
neophool wrote:This team is seriously soft right now. Suter would have been a huge piece to fix that problem.


suter's not exactly made of sandpaper.



he's also not charmin soft like pretty much our entire D corps atm. Minus Orpik the groom-to-be.

I'm not saying suffer thru the regular season with a Hal Gill so that come playoff time when the rules completely change and Gill is an impact player is a good idea....but really. Suter is about as sound positionally as it gets. We needed that stability in the playoffs when everyone was falling apart.

Unless i'm remembering it wrong (i've tried to erase the philly series from my memory) ZM was probably our best overall defenseman in that series. I realize that's not saying much.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Streaks House on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:06 pm

Hawkeynut wrote:If for some reason we go into camp with this cap space, it would most certainly send the wrong message to the team and the fans. I am not advocating Shero spend to just spend, but that Michalek move would certainly look suspect if nothing get's used in that space. Michalek was not our problem last year.


Maybe I'm missing something, but what message does it send?

The way I see it, moving Z accomplished two things:

1) It gave GMRS a ton of flexibility to go big during free agency + potential trades. If anything, this is proof that GMRS was attempting to be a big player this off-season. I don't see how you can fault him, as he was putting himself in the best position to operate in the off-season. If he stood pat outside of trading Staal, not freeing up additional cap space by trading Z, that would have signaled that he PROBABLY didn't intend to do much.

2) Moving Z improves goodwill. Maybe Michalek wasn't comfortable playing in the Pens system. Maybe this is a case where the player and organization both agree that it's a bad fit for one reason or another. Instead of forcing a player to stay here and continue to have a bad situation, GMRS was able to find both a team that wanted Z's services and a location that Z was happy to go to. This isn't the first instance that a solid NHL player and his team agree that it's not a great fit and part ways...and it won't be the last. Players generally view GMRS as a player-friendly GM, and this certainly helped his case. You think a prospective free agent target would value this? Absolutely.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Justin Catanzarite on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:23 pm

neophool wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
neophool wrote:This team is seriously soft right now. Suter would have been a huge piece to fix that problem.


suter's not exactly made of sandpaper.



he's also not charmin soft like pretty much our entire D corps atm. Minus Orpik the groom-to-be.


Kris Letang is a tough SOB
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:39 pm

Justin Catanzarite wrote:
neophool wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
neophool wrote:This team is seriously soft right now. Suter would have been a huge piece to fix that problem.


suter's not exactly made of sandpaper.



he's also not charmin soft like pretty much our entire D corps atm. Minus Orpik the groom-to-be.


Kris Letang is a tough SOB


And engelland is obviously no slouch. Overall, our defense is plenty tough. But I've been saying all along that team toughness isn't a real issue whatsoever.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Steve on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:40 pm

I'd rather go into this season with our current lineup, then overpay for some players now. This current lineup isn't missing the playoffs, barring a ton of injuries. Hell, even last year, we made it without Sid playing most of the year, and with 12 different defensmen playing at times this season.

And even if Shero could add 2-3 all stars to the lineup now - it's not going to matter if the rest of our lineup plays as stupid as they did against the Flyers. That's the key - those players (and coaches) have to be better.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Justin Catanzarite on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:43 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Justin Catanzarite wrote:
neophool wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
neophool wrote:This team is seriously soft right now. Suter would have been a huge piece to fix that problem.


suter's not exactly made of sandpaper.



he's also not charmin soft like pretty much our entire D corps atm. Minus Orpik the groom-to-be.


Kris Letang is a tough SOB


And engelland is obviously no slouch. Overall, our defense is plenty tough. But I've been saying all along that team toughness isn't a real issue whatsoever.



I agree. Toughness is a mentality. We need a bit more size, with complimentary toughness.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby steelhammer on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:47 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Senka wrote:Staal will be on a first line with 30 goals. Sutter will be on the 3rd with 20? Darn.


would 35 vs 15 be more meaningful? because that's the more likely scenario.


Here are the NHL players that scored 35 or more goals last season:

Stamkos
Malkin
Gaborik
Neal
Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Kessel
Hartnell
Perry
Moulson
Vrbata
Ryder
Cole
Michalek

One thing you may notice is that all of those players have much much better shots than Jordan Staal. Eric Staal, the historically better goal scorer of the Staals, had 24 last season. Jordan has 120 goals in 431 career regular season games. The kind of offensive potential some of you see in Jordan really just isn't there.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Justin Catanzarite on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:49 pm

steelhammer wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Senka wrote:Staal will be on a first line with 30 goals. Sutter will be on the 3rd with 20? Darn.


would 35 vs 15 be more meaningful? because that's the more likely scenario.


Here are the NHL players that scored 35 or more goals last season:

Stamkos
Malkin
Gaborik
Neal
Ovechkin
Kovalchuk
Kessel
Hartnell
Perry
Moulson
Vrbata
Ryder
Cole
Michalek

One thing you may notice is that all of those players have much much better shots than Jordan Staal. Eric Staal, the historically better goal scorer of the Staals, had 24 last season. Jordan has 120 goals in 431 career regular season games. The kind of offensive potential some of you see in Jordan really just isn't there.


We'll see how that slot one-timer develops. Because if he keeps that up, he may score 40+
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:51 pm

35 and 15 is still more likely mainly because of the "15"
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby steelhammer on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:51 pm

Additionally, we should be comparing how Jordan plays in a 3rd line role versus how Sutter will play. The most Jordan scored in a 3rd line role was 22. That's the number to compare Sutter to next season. What Staal produces on the top line bears no significance to what his replacement does on the 3rd line.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby steelhammer on Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:56 pm

shmenguin wrote:35 and 15 is still more likely mainly because of the "15"


You're forgetting that Sutter averaged 0:26 PP time/game last season and still had 17 goals. If he gets close to 2 min/game, as the 3rd line center in Pittsburgh usually does, he could easily score 20 goals. When Staal scored 22 as a 3rd line center in 08-09, he averaged 2:19 PP time/game. He had only 2 goals to show for it.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:05 pm

steelhammer wrote:
shmenguin wrote:35 and 15 is still more likely mainly because of the "15"


You're forgetting that Sutter averaged 0:26 PP time/game last season and still had 17 goals. If he gets close to 2 min/game, as the 3rd line center in Pittsburgh usually does, he could easily score 20 goals. When Staal scored 22 as a 3rd line center in 08-09, he averaged 2:19 PP time/game. He had only 2 goals to show for it.


maybe, but our 2nd pp is still going to be a catastrophe. if any forward gets more than 2 goals on that unit, it'll be a surprise
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby pressure=9Pa on Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:53 pm

Bill James (Baseball SABRmatrician) says that baseball teams get about 4 wins/season better each off-season. Thus if your team is equally good next year, you will win 4 fewer games because of how much the league improved. (Intuitively we know that teams from today are light years better than teams from decades ago, but there is a measurable year-to-year improvement as well.) If we take baseball's 162 game season and assume that improvements in hockey are similar, that means that the Pens have to improve by 2 wins in an 82 game season just to be where they were last year.

I think we got a 2 win improvement from the backup goaltender position alone. I also think any drop-off from the third line center position and from ZM are more than made up for by having a *hopefully* healthy 87 for the year. Thus the Penguins, without landing a big name free agent, should be able to fill the roster with Sullivan and similarly talented players, and still be as good as they were last year in relation to the rest of the league, ie contenders for the Eastern Conference's best record.

That said, I don't think Shero is done, and I want to improve just like everyone else. I don't understand the mentality that exists that without a big name acquisition we are doomed to mediocrity.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby pensfan16 on Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:11 pm

Sid and Geno must stay healthy first and foremost. I agree with with no name the pens need defense. Paul Martin has been a bust thus far. We need a scuderi type player and a Hal Gill type. I would love to see parise come to pittsburgh but if not I would look for a goal scorer for Sid. Otherwise it will be out in the first round and raise the ticket prices again.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby neophool on Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:37 pm

Justin Catanzarite wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Justin Catanzarite wrote:
Kris Letang is a tough SOB


And engelland is obviously no slouch. Overall, our defense is plenty tough. But I've been saying all along that team toughness isn't a real issue whatsoever.



I agree. Toughness is a mentality. We need a bit more size, with complimentary toughness.


Toughness is partly a mentality, but can you honestly say toughness is not an issue after watching the Philly series? Toughness doesn't mean scrumming around after a whistle or losing your cool and headhunting - toughness is paying the price on D from getting a relentless forecheck - clearing the crease instead of stick checking and little whacks, and more then anything - working harder then the other team when the work is the hardest. While i will say those 5 games in the Philly series were hopefully not the "norm" from this D core - what i saw was the softest bunch of defenseman since a certain....rant....from a certain ex-head-coach of the Pens.

And i'll say that ZM was one of the least "soft" overall. And he's gone now.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby shmenguin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:55 am

neophool wrote:
Justin Catanzarite wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Justin Catanzarite wrote:
Kris Letang is a tough SOB


And engelland is obviously no slouch. Overall, our defense is plenty tough. But I've been saying all along that team toughness isn't a real issue whatsoever.



I agree. Toughness is a mentality. We need a bit more size, with complimentary toughness.


Toughness is partly a mentality, but can you honestly say toughness is not an issue after watching the Philly series? Toughness doesn't mean scrumming around after a whistle or losing your cool and headhunting - toughness is paying the price on D from getting a relentless forecheck - clearing the crease instead of stick checking and little whacks, and more then anything - working harder then the other team when the work is the hardest. While i will say those 5 games in the Philly series were hopefully not the "norm" from this D core - what i saw was the softest bunch of defenseman since a certain....rant....from a certain ex-head-coach of the Pens.

And i'll say that ZM was one of the least "soft" overall. And he's gone now.


we were tougher than philly that series. we lost because we played like we were brain dead
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby sil on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:23 am

I recall Jesse (and perhaps Mikey as well?) providing us with some breakdown diagrams following some of the games in that series against Philly. The pens made mistakes that players shouldn't make in the second week of camp, let along the first round of the Stanely Cup playoffs. It was simply an unmitigated distater of a playoff showing, and EVERYONE from last year's team bears that guilt.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby no name on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:40 am

Toughness is partly a mentality, but can you honestly say toughness is not an issue after watching the Philly series? Toughness doesn't mean scrumming around after a whistle or losing your cool and headhunting - toughness is paying the price on D from getting a relentless forecheck - clearing the crease instead of stick checking and little whacks, and more then anything - working harder then the other team when the work is the hardest. While i will say those 5 games in the Philly series were hopefully not the "norm" from this D core - what i saw was the softest bunch of defenseman since a certain....rant....from a certain ex-head-coach of the Pens.

And i'll say that ZM was one of the least "soft" overall. And he's gone now.


Pens also lacked vetern leadership, we lost our cool, instead of playing hockey we tried to play tough guy. Flyers played the roll of the victum and we played like babies.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Malkin0017 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:43 am

Spoiler:
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby stonewizard51 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:46 am

pensfan16 wrote:Sid and Geno must stay healthy first and foremost. I agree with with no name the pens need defense. Paul Martin has been a bust thus far. We need a scuderi type player and a Hal Gill type. I would love to see parise come to pittsburgh but if not I would look for a goal scorer for Sid. Otherwise it will be out in the first round and raise the ticket prices again.

Truer words were never spoken.

As for Defense, nothing would make me happier than to see Martin gone. However, he has been one of the guys talking to Parise and if Zak does wind up with the Pens, IMHO it will be difficult to trade him. If Parise signs with another team then I hope it's buh bye for Martin.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:56 am

I'm all for Paul Martin hate, but lets not say he has been a bust thus far. He has a good year and an awful year with the Pens. Now I've hated his contract through both of those years, but lets be fair here.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby PenguinSteve-o on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:16 am

joker10277 wrote:everyone seems to forget that sullivan was basically an empty sweater for the first two months of the season last year, dude can't play a regular shift , too small, plus sid deserves better.


Agreed. He was good at chipping in goals sometimes and carrying the puck on the PP.
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