Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby shmenguin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:59 am

Brian wrote:@shemenguin

Z never fit in here. The penalty kill you reference was non existent when it mattered most. I am from the camp that believes anyone can kill penalties, and a guy like Sutter brings a lot of PK experience. The Penguins gave themselves flexibility by moving Z.


the penalty kill fell apart at the end of the season. i have no idea what happened, but everyone blew it. before that, there was evidence that the PK% rose and fell based on Z's presence in the lineup. he was nothing short of phenomenal on the PK for most of his time here. penalty killing forwards are a dime a dozen, but defensemen who can do it at that level are not
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Brian on Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:05 am

@shmenguin

Thanks for the debate. I need it.

The Penguins have a ton of depth at defense. A few of those young guys could kill penalties. Stats like the ones you loosely reference concerning Z's powerplay time can be manipulated. He was not the same player after he was injured and the return was not worth the investment. If I had to move Martin or Z, I would probably rather move Martin. That being said, moving Z was the right move too.

As for the falling apart, the Flyers series took an incredible and unbelievable turn for the worst. Do you actually think the Penguins would have lost the series had they held on during Game 1? I know that one play does not make a series, but that blown offsides call and Staal's post really hurt. The Penguins could have won that series, but it simply was not meant to be.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Pitt87 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:51 am

steelhammer wrote:If TK can get his goal scoring touch back then I would have much less of a problem with him. He is still young enough to turn things around and be a better player. I just really hate how he gets tunnel vision when the puck is on his stick and tries to skate to the left circle no matter where he is on the ice. He needs to get into more open areas without the puck and develop a decent one-timer shot.


None of these seem like teachables. He doesn't have the hands or vision to do any of these things. He carries the puck well in traffic, his shot bias is high, and he has fairly good placement. To expect him to find space, go to the net without the puck or start looking for passing opportunities seems like expecting him to be a completely different player.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby RxBandit66 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:19 pm

Go into camp with what we have now, and be forced to overpay at the deadline for a guy who does not fit, and bow out in the first round again next spring.

Forget the deadline, or any of that other stuff. Spend to the cap max. Stock the minors with guys on two way deals. Add as many star players as you can fit. This is the time for this team to win.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Brian on Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:29 pm

@RxBandit

Did the Penguins "overpay" for Hossa? The Penguins also traded midseason for Neal. RS is holding a lot of cards with his stash of defensemen. Sign Parise or Suter if possible, with an eye on Malkin and Letang. If not sign a few guys who will work and then add the pieces when they become available. Star players get traded yearly.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Penspal on Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:38 pm

RxBandit66 wrote:Go into camp with what we have now, and be forced to overpay at the deadline for a guy who does not fit, and bow out in the first round again next spring.

Forget the deadline, or any of that other stuff. Spend to the cap max. Stock the minors with guys on two way deals. Add as many star players as you can fit. This is the time for this team to win.


If he does not get Parise or Suter, then I believe it is certainly plausible that GMRS might wait and see how things shape up "in other cities". Shero would not wait until the deadline, the last minute, that would be stupid. I think that Despres will step in and outperform what ZM provided last year on D. Brandon Sutter will not fill Staal's shoes, but he can tow the defensive line. There is still a small chance, very small, that there are others in the organization that might develop (Bennett, Kuhnie, long shots in Tangradi and Vieullex)

I think a trade would be the best option if the Pens can't land Parise/Suter, but the timing is key, and in GMRS I trust. PLUS, who knows what the labour talks will bring, having some money and room could prove to be a real boon.

example trade ideas:
- Bobby Ryan could be had in a trade at some point.
- Shea Weber could come out around XMAS and say I'm not signing in Nashville next year, pens acquire him in trade at that time.
- The yearly "trade Iginla" saga in Calgary
- There is always a disaster or two every year, GMRS will be looking and strike with cap space.
-
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby It'sagreatdayforhockey! on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:25 pm

shmenguin wrote:
sure, sign sully and call it a day. i agree with that. but this team is worse than it was at the end of last year, despite not losing anyone that matters to free agency.



I agree with the sentiment, however does it even matter? This team will make the playoffs or else we have even bigger problems to deal with. The thing that matters is how this team looks after the trade deadline going into the playoffs.

The primary needs for this team are on the 3rd/4th line, which can still be acquired and the defense, where we have enough youth that may impress during the start of the season.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby shmenguin on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:27 pm

It'sagreatdayforhockey! wrote:The primary needs for this team are on the 3rd/4th line, which can still be acquired and the defense, where we have enough youth that may impress during the start of the season.


we have absolutely zero need in the 3rd/4th line department.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Sheriff66 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:32 pm

seabiscuit wrote:
columbia wrote:We'll see how this plays out, but dumping ZM could prove to be a very bad move.

:thumb: indeed and for basically nothin


So you know Oskar Sundqvist is just going to totally suck?
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Froggy on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm

Yeah, we need a top 6 upgrade over Sullivan, and a top 4 replacement for ZM.

Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Those lines are fine.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby HockeyDaddy on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:45 pm

Penspal wrote:
RxBandit66 wrote:Go into camp with what we have now, and be forced to overpay at the deadline for a guy who does not fit, and bow out in the first round again next spring.

Forget the deadline, or any of that other stuff. Spend to the cap max. Stock the minors with guys on two way deals. Add as many star players as you can fit. This is the time for this team to win.


If he does not get Parise or Suter, then I believe it is certainly plausible that GMRS might wait and see how things shape up "in other cities". Shero would not wait until the deadline, the last minute, that would be stupid. I think that Despres will step in and outperform what ZM provided last year on D. Brandon Sutter will not fill Staal's shoes, but he can tow the defensive line. There is still a small chance, very small, that there are others in the organization that might develop (Bennett, Kuhnie, long shots in Tangradi and Vieullex)

I think a trade would be the best option if the Pens can't land Parise/Suter, but the timing is key, and in GMRS I trust. PLUS, who knows what the labour talks will bring, having some money and room could prove to be a real boon.

example trade ideas:
- Bobby Ryan could be had in a trade at some point.
- Shea Weber could come out around XMAS and say I'm not signing in Nashville next year, pens acquire him in trade at that time.
- The yearly "trade Iginla" saga in Calgary
- There is always a disaster or two every year, GMRS will be looking and strike with cap space.
-


Asking Despres to outperform Z is not logical. Not only is Despres green, but he brings a completely different skill set to the table. Despres is yet another offensive minded defenseman. Z was a "shut down" guy...the style of D that the Penguins need.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Brian on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:49 pm

The only thing that Z "shutdown" was himself. That guy was a bum.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby Sarcastic on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:02 pm

Brian wrote:The only thing that Z "shutdown" was himself. That guy was a bum.


Right to the point. I like it.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby the wicked child on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:37 pm

Going into camp with what we have is less than ideal, but I don't want to see any silly reactionary signings when/if Parise and Suter sign elsewhere... nor do I expect Shero will go that route. Might see a bargain bin signing or 2 to fill some spots and then perhaps a trade or two as necessary to fill holes.

Not really worth jumping the bridge if it happens though.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby TKovacs2 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:40 pm

HockeyDaddy wrote:
Penspal wrote:
RxBandit66 wrote:Go into camp with what we have now, and be forced to overpay at the deadline for a guy who does not fit, and bow out in the first round again next spring.

Forget the deadline, or any of that other stuff. Spend to the cap max. Stock the minors with guys on two way deals. Add as many star players as you can fit. This is the time for this team to win.


If he does not get Parise or Suter, then I believe it is certainly plausible that GMRS might wait and see how things shape up "in other cities". Shero would not wait until the deadline, the last minute, that would be stupid. I think that Despres will step in and outperform what ZM provided last year on D. Brandon Sutter will not fill Staal's shoes, but he can tow the defensive line. There is still a small chance, very small, that there are others in the organization that might develop (Bennett, Kuhnie, long shots in Tangradi and Vieullex)

I think a trade would be the best option if the Pens can't land Parise/Suter, but the timing is key, and in GMRS I trust. PLUS, who knows what the labour talks will bring, having some money and room could prove to be a real boon.

example trade ideas:
- Bobby Ryan could be had in a trade at some point.
- Shea Weber could come out around XMAS and say I'm not signing in Nashville next year, pens acquire him in trade at that time.
- The yearly "trade Iginla" saga in Calgary
- There is always a disaster or two every year, GMRS will be looking and strike with cap space.
-


Asking Despres to outperform Z is not logical. Not only is Despres green, but he brings a completely different skill set to the table. Despres is yet another offensive minded defenseman. Z was a "shut down" guy...the style of D that the Penguins need.


Big Z was only a shutdown defenseman in reputation only. He was a horrible fit here in retrospect...square peg in a round hole. Despres has a year of being molded to play in the system.

I'm confident he's ready to play solid at the NHL level.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby tfrizz on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:57 pm

TKovacs2 wrote:Big Z was only a shutdown defenseman in reputation only. He was a horrible fit here in retrospect...square peg in a round hole. Despres has a year of being molded to play in the system.

I'm confident he's ready to play solid at the NHL level.


He brought one thing to the team: shot blocking.

Both Michalek and Orpik are too poor positionally to be shutdown defensemen, and they were the shutdown pair...
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby iceolater on Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:48 am

I am starting to think this is exactly what is going to happen. We will make hardly any moves in free agency. Let our young guns get a great season under them, use them for trading options and go after a few already signed quality players at trade deadline and get better before the playoffs. With the team we have now and Volkoun backing up MAF we should be in good shape to get there. Sutter and Glass are great additions to the team. I wouldn't mind seeing as much as I hate to say it, "Semen" in a Pens uniform, all we need for him to do is score and that we know he can do.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:57 am

shmenguin wrote:
Brian wrote:@shemenguin

Z never fit in here. The penalty kill you reference was non existent when it mattered most. I am from the camp that believes anyone can kill penalties, and a guy like Sutter brings a lot of PK experience. The Penguins gave themselves flexibility by moving Z.


the penalty kill fell apart at the end of the season. i have no idea what happened, but everyone blew it. before that, there was evidence that the PK% rose and fell based on Z's presence in the lineup. he was nothing short of phenomenal on the PK for most of his time here. penalty killing forwards are a dime a dozen, but defensemen who can do it at that level are not


- Staal, Dupuis, and Orpik were all on for 7 PPGs against. Staal and Orpik were on for 14g against, Dupuis for 13.
- Zbynek Michalek was on for 5 goals for, and only 6 against (only 3 while PKing), much better numbers than many would expect from him.

For ZM being on the ice for only 1 goal against per game that way we were giving up goals?
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby RxBandit66 on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:17 am

Froggy wrote:Yeah, we need a top 6 upgrade over Sullivan, and a top 4 replacement for ZM.

Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Those lines are fine.


This is a logical post. They need two big time guys to fill those spots vacated by Sullivan and Z. I agree about the bottom 6 being fine (although I despise Craig Adams and hope they give some younger guys a look or sign another 4th liner in free agency)
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby HockeyDaddy on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:26 am

RxBandit66 wrote:
Froggy wrote:Yeah, we need a top 6 upgrade over Sullivan, and a top 4 replacement for ZM.

Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Those lines are fine.


This is a logical post. They need two big time guys to fill those spots vacated by Sullivan and Z. I agree about the bottom 6 being fine (although I despise Craig Adams and hope they give some younger guys a look or sign another 4th liner in free agency)


With what he showed in the Flyers series, Tangradi deserves a shot in the bottom six. If the Pens use Kennedy/Cooke as trade bait to land a D, Tangradi could be an adequate fill-in, even if it is just a "tryout". Or, he could be used as an Adams replacement. The fact that both Sutter and Glass kill penalties helps Tangradi crack this lineup.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:09 am

HockeyDaddy wrote:
RxBandit66 wrote:
Froggy wrote:Yeah, we need a top 6 upgrade over Sullivan, and a top 4 replacement for ZM.

Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Those lines are fine.


This is a logical post. They need two big time guys to fill those spots vacated by Sullivan and Z. I agree about the bottom 6 being fine (although I despise Craig Adams and hope they give some younger guys a look or sign another 4th liner in free agency)


With what he showed in the Flyers series, Tangradi deserves a shot in the bottom six. If the Pens use Kennedy/Cooke as trade bait to land a D, Tangradi could be an adequate fill-in, even if it is just a "tryout". Or, he could be used as an Adams replacement. The fact that both Sutter and Glass kill penalties helps Tangradi crack this lineup.


Not really sure Cooke or Kennedy would draw much trade interest (in getting anything solid back). Those lines above still scare me a bit. Cookes numbers were not bad but I dont care about his goals scored. Cooke/Kennedy and Vitale/Adams just flat out didnt get it done in their roles last year. Now maybe if they get back to doing what they do best, who knows, they could turn it around. But the reality is that 3rd line wont be that hard to play against next year if those wingers dont step it up. I just keep seeing TK flying down the wing and shooting and Cooke in front of the net.

Worthless - I want it dumped and I want someone crashing. I want a cycle, I want to wear the other teams down, I want to be awful to play against. Until they prove me wrong I will be skeptical.
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Re: Here's an idea- Go into camp with what we have now

Postby spiritfan on Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:43 pm

Sid playing with Dupuis and Tangradi? Redickulous !!!
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