Paul Martin

[Tanger58]

People were calling for Bylsma's job before the playoffs, citing commitment to defense, which was the problem in the playoffs.

I still think Bylsma is the heart of the problem, but I've ceased to really discuss because I think it's pointless. DB isn't going anywhere right now. The Penguins would need a disastrous start of epic proportions for Bylsma to get the axe. If DB does get fired, it would have to be dependent on this coming post-season.

As much as I've attacked Martin, I think he's a good dman in the wrong system...and so was Michalek. Here's where the logic goes bye bye...The media has discussed the fact that the Penguins system was the reasoning for the poor play for Michalek and Martin. If you have $9M invested in two players who are supposed to make up your top-four, wouldn't you adjust the system?

We're not talking about a complete overhaul of the Penguins system, but it's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It's not like Martin and Michalek don't have the ability to do everything they need to do.

Outside of that, I still think Martin performed quite poorly...and I mean that in aspects having to do with things other than just the wrong system.

I am not defending or bashing Byslma on this because I really dont know the answer (the chicken or the egg question).

But in these last playoffs the Flyers would make an adjustment to their breakouts and defensive neutral zone coverage about 10 minutes into the period. Specifically in the first game or two they shifted to clogging up the Pens neutral zone center of the ice break out pass, forcing them to chip it off the glass to go get the puck..

When they had the puck they started with those break out passes and/or with a deep wing cutting straight across the middle to split our defense or tip it in deep. When the Penguins adjust to slowing up the dmen and hanging closer to the middle to stop the pass or dropping a center the Flyers then dumped and chased and were able to start cycles because they could get to the pucks easier.

Now my question is was it the Flyers adjustments that were so genius or was that HCDB can only adjust and game plan so much before the Pens lack of muscle and cycle on offense and muscle and stopping the cycle on defense/lateral quickness are just going to be exposed?

I mean that is why the playoff are so different in the NHL than the regular season, right?

Now - the other thing was the power play where the flyers exposed the Pens lack of lateral quickness. I feel HCDP should have adjusted somehow on this but again not sure what he could do but it could have certainly improved.

Remember when the Steelers had an insane Front 7 on their 3/4 defense 10 years ago. Teams were scared sh!tless to attack them. Then what happened? Cheatacheck figured out that Chad Scott, Dwayne Washington and Lethon Flower couldnt cover a fat man. It took one game and they were exposed and had to rebuild their secondary as teams just torched them. Granted Dick Lebau came back but they also had Ike Taylor, Troy P, Chris Hope in for them as starters. Was Lebau a beter coach? Of course but could he have stopped a WR from running right past every secondary player he would have had a few years earlier? Probably not.

Great Post.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

I am not defending or bashing Byslma on this because I really dont know the answer (the chicken or the egg question).

But in these last playoffs the Flyers would make an adjustment to their breakouts and defensive neutral zone coverage about 10 minutes into the period. Specifically in the first game or two they shifted to clogging up the Pens neutral zone center of the ice break out pass, forcing them to chip it off the glass to go get the puck..

When they had the puck they started with those break out passes and/or with a deep wing cutting straight across the middle to split our defense or tip it in deep. When the Penguins adjust to slowing up the dmen and hanging closer to the middle to stop the pass or dropping a center the Flyers then dumped and chased and were able to start cycles because they could get to the pucks easier.

Now my question is was it the Flyers adjustments that were so genius or was that HCDB can only adjust and game plan so much before the Pens lack of muscle and cycle on offense and muscle and stopping the cycle on defense/lateral quickness are just going to be exposed?

I mean that is why the playoff are so different in the NHL than the regular season, right?

Now - the other thing was the power play where the flyers exposed the Pens lack of lateral quickness. I feel HCDP should have adjusted somehow on this but again not sure what he could do but it could have certainly improved.

Remember when the Steelers had an insane Front 7 on their 3/4 defense 10 years ago. Teams were scared sh!tless to attack them. Then what happened? Cheatacheck figured out that Chad Scott, Dwayne Washington and Lethon Flower couldnt cover a fat man. It took one game and they were exposed and had to rebuild their secondary as teams just torched them. Granted Dick Lebau came back but they also had Ike Taylor, Troy P, Chris Hope in for them as starters. Was Lebau a beter coach? Of course but could he have stopped a WR from running right past every secondary player he would have had a few years earlier? Probably not.

It definitely is a chicken/egg scenario, but let's look at the facts:
Martin - a proven and skilled dman
Michalek - also a proven solid stay-at-home/shot-blocking dman

Both players were successful before they played with the Penguins. Both players had a solid season their first year and sub-par second years. Players, even top players, have bad seasons. Is it possible they both had a bad year at the same time? Sure...but when the entire D is awful we of course go right for the players with the biggest contracts. This does kind of counter my general argument about Martin, but let's look at some more facts:

The 2010/2011 season was a very rough season for the Penguins. Losing Sid and Gino hurt big time. However, DB really had the team form together and play as a unit. They played tight defensive hockey and it worked. The Penguins lost the Tampa series due to their inability to score or sustain any real kind of offensive pressure. That's something that was out of DB's hands. You can only do so much when you don't have enough offensive talent on the ice.

Last season, same cast of dmen, different results...well same results, but different reasoning behind it. What went wrong?

I've stated this a few times, but it's up to a coach to be able to tailor a system around his players rather than vice-versa. That's not to say a coach is responsible for the personal play of a single player. If they aren't playing well, there's only so much he can do to get them on track. You can point out areas of work a player needs to focus on, make sure they work on it and that's about it. Is he doing that? None of us know, but I'm going to presume that he is. While Martin and Michalek had sub-par seasons, it's a hard pill for me to swallow that a coach doesn't have something to do with that. Orpik, Michalek and Martin had rough seasons, so what does that leave? Letang? So one player in the top-four shows up this year so you don't make changes to get the others in line or in a system/style of play that suits them? You did it before!

What does this show me? It shows me the questioning behind the chicken/egg theory. Look, like I said, you can't always control whether a player has a bad season or not, but my estimation is that Bylsma is good at getting his team into a system that theoretically works as long as all things remain equal. What he did in 2010/2011 was impressive. It was understood the Penguins were at a major disadvantage. DB made the proper adjustments in 2010/2011, but not this past season? Why? Simply stated, he had no choice but to have the team adjust to that defensive tight structure in 10/11. It was an easy decision for a coach to make when you have no firepower.

There is a danger in having a team that is chock-full of elite and top-level players. Coaches can tend to rely too much on their talents to save them, and you can't do that. I still stand by all my criticisms of Martin, but DB is the real issue. The Penguins need a coach who is experienced with coaching elite players. It's an attitude thing. They need a coach who's somewhere in-between Bylsma and Therrien. A coach who's nice, personable and that the players really like, but a coach who will call you out no matter what number is on your jersey and construct your team's gameplan no matter what number is on your jersey.

[Rylan]

Michalek and Letang both had injured hips. A truly devastating injury to a hockey player.

Martin, I don't know, just didn't have a strong season.

Bylsma last year proved that he can coach and lead a team that had no reason to be in the playoffs make the playoffs. And then take a team that was significantly more talented to a game 7. I respect that.

I just think Crosby and Malkin are going to have to take an interest in playing defense. That's all there is to it. When they are together, the defense of the team crumbles. Coincidence? I don't know. But it was really weird that up until Crosby's return the Penguins had hit their peak in form and were playing solid overall hockey. That included solid defense in their own zone.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

I just think Crosby and Malkin are going to have to take an interest in playing defense. That's all there is to it. When they are together, the defense of the team crumbles. Coincidence? I don't know. But it was really weird that up until Crosby's return the Penguins had hit their peak in form and were playing solid overall hockey. That included solid defense in their own zone.

You basically proved my point and that's the issue. It's not up to Sid and Gino deciding to take up an interest in playing defense. It's up to the coach to say look, this is what we have to work with, we need to play better all-around D and the system will have to be adjusted. That doesn't mean they have to go into a straight-up defensive mode and can't do what Sid and Gino do best, but their system needs to be adjusted. It may not be sexy hockey, but it's what wins.

Until the day comes that the NHL decides to make the rink bigger, that's the style that teams will have to adapt to if they really want to win.

[Rylan]

I just think Crosby and Malkin are going to have to take an interest in playing defense. That's all there is to it. When they are together, the defense of the team crumbles. Coincidence? I don't know. But it was really weird that up until Crosby's return the Penguins had hit their peak in form and were playing solid overall hockey. That included solid defense in their own zone.

You basically proved my point and that's the issue. It's not up to Sid and Gino deciding to take up an interest in playing defense. It's up to the coach to say look, this is what we have to work with, we need to play better all-around D and the system will have to be adjusted. That doesn't mean they have to go into a straight-up defensive mode and can't do what Sid and Gino do best, but their system needs to be adjusted. It may not be sexy hockey, but it's what wins.

Until the day comes that the NHL decides to make the rink bigger, that's the style that teams will have to adapt to if they really want to win.

Bigger Rinks would suck. But that's neither here nor there.

But, a coach can only do so much with Crosby and Malkin. You aren't going to bench them for not playing defense. The reason being they are also your best chance of winning. This is a give and take problem and both sides need to figure it out.

[penny lane]

against the flyers, the pens needed their defensemen to play D long before Sid and Evgeni. Flower had to be an all-star.
Maybe some more PK minutes will enhance their defense.
I've seen paul martin in 2 play-off series; not fully impressed. It took him 4 mons in 2010 to get into the system(loosely written). Then he played better for a couple of months. Same last year. Just me. Don't hate the guy, just wish we had better results from him. Not points, defense 1st work.

[Froggy]

against the flyers, the pens needed their defensemen to play D long before Sid and Evgeni. Flower had to be an all-star.
Maybe some more PK minutes will enhance their defense.
I've seen paul martin in 2 play-off series; not fully impressed. It took him 4 mons in 2010 to get into the system(loosely written). Then he played better for a couple of months. Same last year. Just me. Don't hate the guy, just wish we had better results from him. Not points, defense 1st work.

ok, i'm not sure about this. the tampa series... we had no business even making the playoffs that year, and had no guns at all going into the post season. i think aaron asham was our playoff goal leader with 2. and against philly, martin was either playing with a concussion, or sitting out from a concussion. i think a lot of criticisms of martin are valid, but this one is pushing it.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

I just think Crosby and Malkin are going to have to take an interest in playing defense. That's all there is to it. When they are together, the defense of the team crumbles. Coincidence? I don't know. But it was really weird that up until Crosby's return the Penguins had hit their peak in form and were playing solid overall hockey. That included solid defense in their own zone.

You basically proved my point and that's the issue. It's not up to Sid and Gino deciding to take up an interest in playing defense. It's up to the coach to say look, this is what we have to work with, we need to play better all-around D and the system will have to be adjusted. That doesn't mean they have to go into a straight-up defensive mode and can't do what Sid and Gino do best, but their system needs to be adjusted. It may not be sexy hockey, but it's what wins.

Until the day comes that the NHL decides to make the rink bigger, that's the style that teams will have to adapt to if they really want to win.

Bigger Rinks would suck. But that's neither here nor there.

But, a coach can only do so much with Crosby and Malkin. You aren't going to bench them for not playing defense. The reason being they are also your best chance of winning. This is a give and take problem and both sides need to figure it out.

No, you're not going to bench them, but you also don't necessarily let them do whatever they want if it means leaving the team vulnerable. You find a balance. You can still allow them to "play their game," but within the confines of a defensively responsible system. It doesn't have to be one of two extremes, i.e. a trap or wide open hockey...a balance is needed. Sid and Gino can still work their magic while at the same time taking a little more responsibility in their own end. Some coaches however will have difficulty telling players like that what to do.

It's also other aspects, like the PP. Bylsma shows his weakness by letting Sid have dibs on the half-wall when it's apparent to the most novice of hockey fans that Malkin is 100X more effective there than Sid. Sid gets that position because he's Sid. A coach shouldn't construct a PP like that. There are a lot of little things like that, that go on where a coach who has experience with those kind of players would know how to approach situations like that.

[Oneonta Penguin]

So, Ray has several suitors that have interest in Paul Martin. If this was truly the case, wouldn't he have been the guy traded instead of Michalek? I would think so.

[Rylan]

I just think Crosby and Malkin are going to have to take an interest in playing defense. That's all there is to it. When they are together, the defense of the team crumbles. Coincidence? I don't know. But it was really weird that up until Crosby's return the Penguins had hit their peak in form and were playing solid overall hockey. That included solid defense in their own zone.

You basically proved my point and that's the issue. It's not up to Sid and Gino deciding to take up an interest in playing defense. It's up to the coach to say look, this is what we have to work with, we need to play better all-around D and the system will have to be adjusted. That doesn't mean they have to go into a straight-up defensive mode and can't do what Sid and Gino do best, but their system needs to be adjusted. It may not be sexy hockey, but it's what wins.

Until the day comes that the NHL decides to make the rink bigger, that's the style that teams will have to adapt to if they really want to win.

Bigger Rinks would suck. But that's neither here nor there.

But, a coach can only do so much with Crosby and Malkin. You aren't going to bench them for not playing defense. The reason being they are also your best chance of winning. This is a give and take problem and both sides need to figure it out.

No, you're not going to bench them, but you also don't necessarily let them do whatever they want if it means leaving the team vulnerable. You find a balance. You can still allow them to "play their game," but within the confines of a defensively responsible system. It doesn't have to be one of two extremes, i.e. a trap or wide open hockey...a balance is needed. Sid and Gino can still work their magic while at the same time taking a little more responsibility in their own end. Some coaches however will have difficulty telling players like that what to do.

It's also other aspects, like the PP. Bylsma shows his weakness by letting Sid have dibs on the half-wall when it's apparent to the most novice of hockey fans that Malkin is 100X more effective there than Sid. Sid gets that position because he's Sid. A coach shouldn't construct a PP like that. There are a lot of little things like that, that go on where a coach who has experience with those kind of players would know how to approach situations like that.

But there is only so much you can tell a player who is infinitely talented and there is only so much he is going to listen to. Its just how it is. You can tell him to be more defensively responsible and to pay more attention to his own end, but if he isn't going to get benched he is going to cheat to try and go the other way or put themselves in bad position on the backcheck.

As for the PP, Sid is going to get what he wants no matter who is coach. If he wants the halfwall he is getting the halfwall. It doesn't matter if Babcock or Olcyck is coaching.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

So, Ray has several suitors that have interest in Paul Martin. If this was truly the case, wouldn't he have been the guy traded instead of Michalek? I would think so.

Not necessarily. Just because there's quite a few of us on this message board with a negative view on Martin doesn't mean the Organization does too. Also, there has to be a follow up plan to trading Martin. There may be several suitors, but what if they're not offering up a Dman in return? How will the Pens now fill two spots?

Michalek might have fallen out of favor as compared to Martin. Our view doesn't necessarily reflect theirs.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

But there is only so much you can tell a player who is infinitely talented and there is only so much he is going to listen to. Its just how it is. You can tell him to be more defensively responsible and to pay more attention to his own end, but if he isn't going to get benched he is going to cheat to try and go the other way or put themselves in bad position on the backcheck.

As for the PP, Sid is going to get what he wants no matter who is coach. If he wants the halfwall he is getting the halfwall. It doesn't matter if Babcock or Olcyck is coaching.

We're going to have to agree to disagree because I think you absolutely can tell a player that he needs to more responsible in his own end. Benching may not be the punishment, but when you have a whole team trying to buy into a system that could work, but only one or two players won't buy in and it affects their ability to win, you can bet your bottom dollar it's going to cause major rifts in the locker room. That may not sound like a big deal to you, but a bad relationship of a team shows itself on the ice.

As for your PP comment, that's just false. You don't just give a player what we wants because that's where he wants to be. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work and a proper coach will do it. If Babcock where the coach, I can assure you you'd see a different make-up. Malkin and Sid don't strike me as coach-killers. I don't think that if a coach came in and took control in that way you'd see either of them make a stink.

[no name]

Honestly if we are going to talk about the flyers series, in my eyes it comes down to game one blown offsides call Briere is called offside, we win game one, no meltdown, we win series. I know its simple but hey i believe if the flyers had their back to the wall losing game one we win the series, they crumble and meltdown we win.

[Rylan]

We're going to have to agree to disagree because I think you absolutely can tell a player that he needs to more responsible in his own end. Benching may not be the punishment, but when you have a whole team trying to buy into a system that could work, but only one or two players won't buy in and it affects their ability to win, you can bet your bottom dollar it's going to cause major rifts in the locker room. That may not sound like a big deal to you, but a bad relationship of a team shows itself on the ice.

As for your PP comment, that's just false. You don't just give a player what we wants because that's where he wants to be. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work and a proper coach will do it. If Babcock where the coach, I can assure you you'd see a different make-up. Malkin and Sid don't strike me as coach-killers. I don't think that if a coach came in and took control in that way you'd see either of them make a stink.

You miss what I mean? A coach can tell Crosby and Malkin to worry more about defense but doesn't mean they will. The reason being is defense is not now nor will it ever really be on the forefront of their minds. They are point machines and as such will worry more about scoring than stopping. That is what separates great defensive players from great offensive players. But if your teammates recognize that, then no rift will happen. Its just how it is. That is why a GM has to find a cover for those players. Dupuis covers Crosby, and Kunitz should cover Malkin. That is not to say Crosby and Malkin can't play great defense. Its just they are not as worried about it.

I am not saying they are coach killers either. Sid needs to be on the ice, but where do you put him? That is what I am meaning more than he would throw a fit that HC is telling him to do something.

PS. I was comparing apples to apples when talking about the PP. If Babcock came in I am sure there would be a different PP set-up. I was referring if he was using the current PP set-up.

[Froggy]

Honestly if we are going to talk about the flyers series, in my eyes it comes down to game one blown offsides call Briere is called offside, we win game one, no meltdown, we win series. I know its simple but hey i believe if the flyers had their back to the wall losing game one we win the series, they crumble and meltdown we win.

eh... the series was over after lovejoy's brainfart IMMEDIATELY after kennedy gave us the lead early in the 3rd pd of game 2, imo

[Luckybreak]

So, Ray has several suitors that have interest in Paul Martin. If this was truly the case, wouldn't he have been the guy traded instead of Michalek? I would think so.

Not necessarily. Just because there's quite a few of us on this message board with a negative view on Martin doesn't mean the Organization does too. Also, there has to be a follow up plan to trading Martin. There may be several suitors, but what if they're not offering up a Dman in return? How will the Pens now fill two spots?

Michalek might have fallen out of favor as compared to Martin. Our view doesn't necessarily reflect theirs.

Several sources said Michalek was unhappy with how he was being played/instructed to play. I suspect he politely requested a trade and Shero politely agreed with the ulterior motive of freeing up space for Parise and/or Suter. Given the poor return for Michalek and lack of alternative replacements Shero was forced to keep Martin. Having said that, Martin has been held strangely unaccountable by Pens management throughout his worst season.

[bhaw]

So, Ray has several suitors that have interest in Paul Martin. If this was truly the case, wouldn't he have been the guy traded instead of Michalek? I would think so.

Not necessarily. Just because there's quite a few of us on this message board with a negative view on Martin doesn't mean the Organization does too. Also, there has to be a follow up plan to trading Martin. There may be several suitors, but what if they're not offering up a Dman in return? How will the Pens now fill two spots?

Michalek might have fallen out of favor as compared to Martin. Our view doesn't necessarily reflect theirs.

Several sources said Michalek was unhappy with how he was being played/instructed to play. I suspect he politely requested a trade and Shero politely agreed with the ulterior motive of freeing up space for Parise and/or Suter. Given the poor return for Michalek and lack of alternative replacements Shero was forced to keep Martin. Having said that, Martin has been held strangely unaccountable by Pens management throughout his worst season.

How do you know he's been held unaccountable? Do they need to cut off his thumbs? Sorry, but statements like this are why message boards blow up with irrational hate or love for a player. You are convinced Martin played bad, had no excuse for it, and the Pens said "it's cool, Paul. Just get better next year." Yeah, I'd be pissed if that were the case too, but is that really what we are going off of?

[Senka]

People do this with the president all the time. If you like him, you like him and support what he does and find a way to have a positive spin on his decisions and pointout how man ypeople are being helped. If you hate him you find a way to continually point out bad things he does and terrible ideas. Often irrationally.

*I hope Paul Martin is great next year for the Pens and shakes part of the year he had (not statistically, but fundamentally) but I will continue to put him under the microscope and bash him because thats me.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

How do you know he's been held unaccountable? Do they need to cut off his thumbs? Sorry, but statements like this are why message boards blow up with irrational hate or love for a player. You are convinced Martin played bad, had no excuse for it, and the Pens said "it's cool, Paul. Just get better next year." Yeah, I'd be pissed if that were the case too, but is that really what we are going off of?

Well, there have been plenty of accounts, at least in the media, that state Shero and Bylsma are perfectly happy with Martin's performance and believed he turned his season around back to form from his first season with the Pens. Take that for what it's worth, but I'm sure that's what the previous poster was referring too.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Honestly if we are going to talk about the flyers series, in my eyes it comes down to game one blown offsides call Briere is called offside, we win game one, no meltdown, we win series. I know its simple but hey i believe if the flyers had their back to the wall losing game one we win the series, they crumble and meltdown we win.

Well, there's a bigger issue there that you touch on and it's what really separates championship teams from non-championship teams, and that's how you deal with adversity. If one blown call is responsible for the Pens losing the series, then they really didn't deserve to go past the first round. True championship teams have to deal with adversity, i.e. bad calls, missed calls, unfair acts, etc...

[Luckybreak]

How do you know he's been held unaccountable? Do they need to cut off his thumbs? Sorry, but statements like this are why message boards blow up with irrational hate or love for a player. You are convinced Martin played bad, had no excuse for it, and the Pens said "it's cool, Paul. Just get better next year." Yeah, I'd be pissed if that were the case too, but is that really what we are going off of?

Well, there have been plenty of accounts, at least in the media, that state Shero and Bylsma are perfectly happy with Martin's performance and believed he turned his season around back to form from his first season with the Pens. Take that for what it's worth, but I'm sure that's what the previous poster was referring too.

Thanks Hugo! To add to that, no I don't know what was said behind closed doors, but to my knowledge there was no public report of dissatisfaction from the Pens. No need to cut off his thumbs, just something along the lines of "Paul has struggled thus far but is trying hard to find the form he had last season". I think your defense of Martin is far more irrational than my comment - if you don't think he had a bad season then I worry what your expectations are bhaw. And in my defense I think there were many possible reasons for his poor performance:

The system (he was pretty solid when HCDB was forced to play a defensive system the previous season)
His partner (Michalek had a pretty bad year and they seemed to drag each other down - Martin's play improved with Letang)
Possible injury (the concussion in the playoffs).

If you have futher reasons to promote your apparant love of Martin and explain why I should not be convinced he had a bad season, or can cure me of my 'irrational hate', please do! Otherwise, as we appear to have him for at least one more season, I hope he rounds back into form because we need him at his best.

[Pens4Life]

I just dont want to have MArtin anymore on D,because he is one of the softest players in NHL.. Trade him for a pick,prospect I DONT CARE!
I rather see we sign Colaiacovo and put him on 2nd pairing.. or even better,trade for someone psyhical.

[Gaucho]

Fine. Trade Martin, insert Valabik.

[sil]

Fine. Trade Martin, insert Valabik.

LGP 6 months from now: "Man I really wish we had Paul Martin back."

[Luckybreak]

I just dont want to have MArtin anymore on D,because he is one of the softest players in NHL.. Trade him for a pick,prospect I DONT CARE!
I rather see we sign Colaiacovo and put him on 2nd pairing.. or even better,trade for someone psyhical.

Being 'soft' isn't an issue, Lidstrom was hardly a crusher. I think the issue is that the D core is too similar, ie players of comparable size and skillset. Someone mentioned Martin would be fantastic paired with a physical guy so that his puck retrieval and transition could be utilised effectively. Perhaps we will see some remodelling of the D at the trade deadline? The current group will be fine regular season but some more muscle might help in the playoffs.