Can we talk about the Draft some more?

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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Brian on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:31 am

@ Burgers...

Any team that employs Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Kris Letang is going to have a shot every year. Add Fleury and Neal to the mix, and the Pens are still LOADED.

The glut of young defensemen is a commodity any team would take. These players can be developed for future use or traded for future help on offense. The season does not start until October. The lineup we see now is a work in progress. Even if the team goes into camp and starts the season with the current roster, it is likely a top half of the East team.

Shero knows his stuff. Parise and Suter would have helped but may end up being a blessing in disguise.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby steelhammer on Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:41 am

joopen wrote:But we are going to have our defense on cheap EL deals so we have more money to spend on forwards.


That's a double-edgd sword. Yes, you get inexpensive d-men, but they are also young, inexperienced, and in our case most of them aren't exactly great in their own end to begin with. It could very easily be a disaster.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Brian on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:17 am

@steel

Crosby could take a hit to the head and retire. Malkin could blow out his knee. Orpik could be broken down and finished. Fleury could never recover the playoff loss. Neal could revert to a 20 goal guy...

My point is this: Why is everyone is distress? This blog seems to be filled with gloom and doom posters. Most NHL teams would trade places with the Penguins in a heartbeat.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:19 am

Thats a nice sentiment and from a business standpoint, its probably true. Thats about all I can say regarding that though.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby RainbowsAndCottonCandy on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:23 am

Brian wrote:Most NHL teams would trade places with the Penguins in a heartbeat.



I know the one Philly would...
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Brian on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:40 am

I am not sure what you meant exactly... If you were being sarcastic, the Flyers won one crazy series against the Pens only to be destroyed in the second round. I am from the camp that believes the Penguins had the worst possible first round matchup and could easily had represented the East in the Finals.

The Flyers might not trade organizations with the Penguins out of hatred, but most objective fans would make the swap.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:47 pm

sil wrote:Personally, I need a little more to go on than just "insert penguin not named Crosby or Malkin" got "exposed." ??? What does that mean exactly? I can say for certainty after watching the pens/flyers series that both Crosby and Malkin were embarrassed defensively by the hard work of the Flyers forecheckers. I don't know if that's "exposed," but it was certainly real...and quite frustrating.


Well, Ill define exposed. Orpik and Dupuis were on the ice for like 14 goals against each. In a 7 games series players can get exposed not just because of scouting (I mean they scout the regular season too) but scouting against your specific team and all of your specific adjustments (and their ongoing adjustments to them etc.). Its what makes a 7 game series so much more compelling and allows for "upsets".

The Penguins lack of forecheck was exposed as well as some defensive flaws were exposed in general sure. But they exposed guys like Orpik and Dupuis for lack of positioning, lack of lateral movement and lack of strength compared to what they need for their roles.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:51 pm

Brian wrote:@steel

Crosby could take a hit to the head and retire. Malkin could blow out his knee. Orpik could be broken down and finished. Fleury could never recover the playoff loss. Neal could revert to a 20 goal guy...

My point is this: Why is everyone is distress? This blog seems to be filled with gloom and doom posters. Most NHL teams would trade places with the Penguins in a heartbeat.


Because if Orpik goes down we have 7 million d-men in the minors to replace him, if Malkin or Crosby go down we would have Suter as our number 2 center (flanked by Jefrrey and Dupuis) and probably Vitale as our number 3 flanked by Cooke and TK. That scares the beeeejafj;adjf out of me.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Streaks House on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:52 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
sil wrote:Personally, I need a little more to go on than just "insert penguin not named Crosby or Malkin" got "exposed." ??? What does that mean exactly? I can say for certainty after watching the pens/flyers series that both Crosby and Malkin were embarrassed defensively by the hard work of the Flyers forecheckers. I don't know if that's "exposed," but it was certainly real...and quite frustrating.


Well, Ill define exposed. Orpik and Dupuis were on the ice for like 14 goals against each. In a 7 games series players can get exposed not just because of scouting (I mean they scout the regular season too) but scouting against your specific team and all of your specific adjustments (and their ongoing adjustments to them etc.). Its what makes a 7 game series so much more compelling and allows for "upsets".

The Penguins lack of forecheck was exposed as well as some defensive flaws were exposed in general sure. But they exposed guys like Orpik and Dupuis for lack of positioning, lack of lateral movement and lack of strength compared to what they need for their roles.


You can't be serious?
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:56 pm

Streaks House wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
sil wrote:Personally, I need a little more to go on than just "insert penguin not named Crosby or Malkin" got "exposed." ??? What does that mean exactly? I can say for certainty after watching the pens/flyers series that both Crosby and Malkin were embarrassed defensively by the hard work of the Flyers forecheckers. I don't know if that's "exposed," but it was certainly real...and quite frustrating.


Well, Ill define exposed. Orpik and Dupuis were on the ice for like 14 goals against each. In a 7 games series players can get exposed not just because of scouting (I mean they scout the regular season too) but scouting against your specific team and all of your specific adjustments (and their ongoing adjustments to them etc.). Its what makes a 7 game series so much more compelling and allows for "upsets".

The Penguins lack of forecheck was exposed as well as some defensive flaws were exposed in general sure. But they exposed guys like Orpik and Dupuis for lack of positioning, lack of lateral movement and lack of strength compared to what they need for their roles.


You can't be serious?


I guess Im not. That must have been that other series I watched where the team used quick passes to expose the lack of lateral quickness by the Pens defense, especially on the PK.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby mikey287 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:57 pm

Frankly, I'm not using one second of that series to discuss players' strengths and weaknesses...it was an anomaly on a historic level...it was frustrating to be a part of, but now that it's over, it's long forgotten...if you can take anything out of that series, it's the lack of discipline and command that Bylsma has...he lost the team at some point during the series, and it's unclear whether he couldn't or didn't want to get them back...

Very tough to lose a team and get them back, so I hope he can put his foot down and keep their attention this time around...but saying that this player was "exposed" and this player was "exposed" is just an exercise in nincompoopery...

The team changed when Crosby came back, it was up to the coach to get them back...if those Islanders games late in the season weren't a red flag, I don't know what was...that's on coaching...that was the only thing that you could construe as "exposed"...
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby offsides on Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:31 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Brian wrote:@steel

Crosby could take a hit to the head and retire. Malkin could blow out his knee. Orpik could be broken down and finished. Fleury could never recover the playoff loss. Neal could revert to a 20 goal guy...

My point is this: Why is everyone is distress? This blog seems to be filled with gloom and doom posters. Most NHL teams would trade places with the Penguins in a heartbeat.


Because if Orpik goes down we have 7 million d-men in the minors to replace him, if Malkin or Crosby go down we would have Suter as our number 2 center (flanked by Jefrrey and Dupuis) and probably Vitale as our number 3 flanked by Cooke and TK. That scares the beeeejafj;adjf out of me.


That is very scary, especially the way the Pens get injured.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby Nizzy on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:00 am

mikey287 wrote:Frankly, I'm not using one second of that series to discuss players' strengths and weaknesses...it was an anomaly on a historic level...it was frustrating to be a part of, but now that it's over, it's long forgotten...if you can take anything out of that series, it's the lack of discipline and command that Bylsma has...he lost the team at some point during the series, and it's unclear whether he couldn't or didn't want to get them back...

Very tough to lose a team and get them back, so I hope he can put his foot down and keep their attention this time around...but saying that this player was "exposed" and this player was "exposed" is just an exercise in nincompoopery...

The team changed when Crosby came back, it was up to the coach to get them back...if those Islanders games late in the season weren't a red flag, I don't know what was...that's on coaching...that was the only thing that you could construe as "exposed"...


Good point as always mikey, and once again I agree with about 80% only.

The team was better when Crosby came back. There were a few games with Cooke Crosby Kennedy line and it was going well. Then DB changed the lines and flipped Crosby/Staal again. This might be why Staal was pushing to leave so suddenly this offseason. He enjoyed the top 2 lines in a scoring role. Once they got flipped Staal on the 3rd line again stopped his defensive responsiblities.

Biggest mistake was putting Crosby on the number 1 unit. It shouldn't have been touched.

Whether you agree with all that is fine. I agree Bylsma lost the team. I agree they were so historically bad. However to drop off that fast that hard its 100% Bylsma coaching and execution. He was the worst thing, the root of the problem. How can you be a coach in the pros and only use 1 system for years? Not be able to change when needed? He lucked out in the cup run coming into a perfect situation. He won't last til Christmas.

EDIT: coaches always go first.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby sil on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:07 am

mikey287 wrote:...but saying that this player was "exposed" and this player was "exposed" is just an exercise in nincompoopery...

:thumb:
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:47 pm

sil wrote:
mikey287 wrote:...but saying that this player was "exposed" and this player was "exposed" is just an exercise in nincompoopery...

:thumb:


I agree, Orpik, Dupuis, Kunitz, Cooke having very fine regular season and having a coach pick apart their weaknesses isnt getting "exposed". At all.
Its, well, um, yeah its like this, they are better than that but it was just a bad matchup, the Flyers were built to beat us, we would have been hoisting the cup if it wasnt for the peksiness of the NHL in scheduling us against that damn #5 seed.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby mikey287 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:59 pm

That's not what I said...I think we would have lost that series even if we played Ottawa...we weren't beat by the other team, we lost...
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby offsides on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:22 pm

mikey287 wrote:That's not what I said...I think we would have lost that series even if we played Ottawa...we weren't beat by the other team, we lost...


Couldn't agree more. Flyers showed how good they were the next series. Pens crapped the bed, and it started in the stretch run.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:05 pm

I think a lot of people forget that despite how historically bad we were, we actually won 2 games in that series.

But I disagree with whoever said we were a better team when Crosby came back. We were more dangerous, able to put up seven goals in any game. We were also defensively lax. You could see the attention to detail fading when Sid came back. They thought they could get by playing pond hockey, and they usually did out of sheer talent...until the playoffs.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby no name on Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:01 am

nincompoopery...


I found my new favorite word. Thanks Mikey287 "hey he likes it"

Image
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby steelhammer on Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:00 am

Can anyone who follows any of the other teams report if there have been any players picked in the 1st round this year who had a worse prospects camp that Pouliot? Just curious.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby joopen on Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:06 am

steelhammer wrote:Can anyone who follows any of the other teams report if there have been any players picked in the 1st round this year who had a worse prospects camp that Pouliot? Just curious.

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you watched him every day. What did he not do well?
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby steelhammer on Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:09 am

joopen wrote:
steelhammer wrote:Can anyone who follows any of the other teams report if there have been any players picked in the 1st round this year who had a worse prospects camp that Pouliot? Just curious.

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you watched him every day. What did he not do well?


I haven't read ONE SINGLE good thing about him this camp. Just seems unusual for a team's 1st round pick.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:30 am

steelhammer wrote:
joopen wrote:
steelhammer wrote:Can anyone who follows any of the other teams report if there have been any players picked in the 1st round this year who had a worse prospects camp that Pouliot? Just curious.

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you watched him every day. What did he not do well?


I haven't read ONE SINGLE good thing about him this camp. Just seems unusual for a team's 1st round pick.


Prospects camps are tough, they have been pretty down on Morrow too from what I have read. Its tough because with us being full of d-men and how d-men take so long to development you never know if they are just adjusting, are really not good or having trouble with something specific and so on.

Same thing with players who look real good. While it nice they look good and you would rather have that it is just against other prospects so you just never know how it will translate to the NHL.

I take some stock in the reports and what people wrote and take some concerns out of it but unless its a blazing positive or blazing negative its just something to keep interested during the off season.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby netwolf on Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:31 am

Derrick Pouliot was one of the youngest guys here. And it's just a development camp in July. Are these kids being evaluated during it? Of course, but that's not the focal point of this week. It's to get them in front of the coaches and to educate them on what it means to be a Pittsburgh Penguin.

As far as performance, it wasn't that he had a bad week, he just didn't do much to really stand out. You can say the same things about Olli Maatta. I know Joe Morrow and Scott Harrington blew people away last summer, but expecting every top kid to do that is unrealistic and somewhat takes away from what those two did last year.
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Re: Can we talk about the Draft some more?

Postby mikey287 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:37 am

steelhammer wrote:Can anyone who follows any of the other teams report if there have been any players picked in the 1st round this year who had a worse prospects camp that Pouliot? Just curious.


Dumba has been worse...the guy picked #7.
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