Pens' track record in luring free agents

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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:39 am

They'd want to play here if Sid stopped whining and Malkin had a hart...
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Penspal on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:57 am

topshelf wrote:They'd want to play here if Sid stopped whining and Malkin had a hart...


you forgot your /sarcasm tag.

Or you didn't and let the flames begin!
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Penspal on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:59 am

Penspal wrote:
topshelf wrote:They'd want to play here if Sid stopped winning and Malkin had a hart...


you forgot your /sarcasm tag.

Or you didn't and let the flames begin!


After some thought about how you spelled "heart", I realized maybe you just spelled one other word wrong.... fixed.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby topshelf on Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:06 am

Penspal wrote:
Penspal wrote:
topshelf wrote:They'd want to play here if Sid stopped winning and Malkin had a hart...


you forgot your /sarcasm tag.

Or you didn't and let the flames begin!


After some thought about how you spelled "heart", I realized maybe you just spelled one other word wrong.... fixed.


:thumb: :wink:
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby firepower on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:16 am

Sarcastic wrote:
firepower wrote:The team will probably be fine on D, especially with the rookies that mey crack the lineup(Despres, Morrow, Dumoulin, ect.). A veteran with a cannon for a shot wouldn't hurt. However I agree about the forward situation. Even if Shero doesn't want to (or can't) add the expensive pieces, at least add some grit. Tanner Glass is one piece, but get a couple more.


If you think our D will be fine after what happened last year, then I have a bridge to sell you. We are 2 pieces away, and 3 if Martin stumbles again. Let's hope a prospect steps up and sticks this time around.

Agree on the forwards. I want to see Shero move out the little guys like Adams and Kennedy and bring in big bodies, 6'2 and up. We were one of the biggest teams a few years ago, I think we're one of the smaller ones now. Flyers and Devils used their size very well in the playoffs last year. We simply do not punish other teams anymore.


Well I guess I should say our D should be fine during the regular season. The Pens got all these prospects it's time to see what some of them can do. This team seems to take forever to develope prospects. Give em a shake down, then make a few trades before the deadline.

Sid NEEDS a REAL winger.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby bhaw on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:09 am

firepower wrote:Sid NEEDS a REAL winger.


Of course... when we go back and disregard legit wingers like Kunitz, Sid will always need a real winger. Because every team has 2 of the top 5 players in the world surrounded by 4 more of the top 10 players in the world. It's totally reasonable!

Kunitz is a real winger. The idea that we can have an entire All Star team in our top 6 is ridiculous and unrealistic. The realistic version of what happens is a trade or signing like Kunitz and Neal. A guy who's pretty promising but isn't an epic talent. We bring them in and they turn into what James Neal did for us. Worst case (relative) is that they stay what they are: a solid 20 goal guy who can play.

But sure... it's way better to gut the team of all NHL level players or offer another player a 14 year contract just so we can hope they turn out to be the guy. That makes more sense.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:20 am

sid always produces no matter who he's with. even the cooke - sid -tk line was very effective in its brief time together (people conveniently forget this). so he doesn't "need" much of anything.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Noise on Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:01 pm

bhaw wrote:
firepower wrote:Sid NEEDS a REAL winger.


Of course... when we go back and disregard legit wingers like Kunitz, Sid will always need a real winger. Because every team has 2 of the top 5 players in the world surrounded by 4 more of the top 10 players in the world. It's totally reasonable!

Kunitz is a real winger. The idea that we can have an entire All Star team in our top 6 is ridiculous and unrealistic. The realistic version of what happens is a trade or signing like Kunitz and Neal. A guy who's pretty promising but isn't an epic talent. We bring them in and they turn into what James Neal did for us. Worst case (relative) is that they stay what they are: a solid 20 goal guy who can play.

But sure... it's way better to gut the team of all NHL level players or offer another player a 14 year contract just so we can hope they turn out to be the guy. That makes more sense.


It is kind of irritating though when the Pens have cap space for a high quality player and they can't get one. Not their fault though. All these free agents have somewhere in mind that they wanna go.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby bhaw on Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:06 pm

Noise wrote:
bhaw wrote:
firepower wrote:Sid NEEDS a REAL winger.


Of course... when we go back and disregard legit wingers like Kunitz, Sid will always need a real winger. Because every team has 2 of the top 5 players in the world surrounded by 4 more of the top 10 players in the world. It's totally reasonable!

Kunitz is a real winger. The idea that we can have an entire All Star team in our top 6 is ridiculous and unrealistic. The realistic version of what happens is a trade or signing like Kunitz and Neal. A guy who's pretty promising but isn't an epic talent. We bring them in and they turn into what James Neal did for us. Worst case (relative) is that they stay what they are: a solid 20 goal guy who can play.

But sure... it's way better to gut the team of all NHL level players or offer another player a 14 year contract just so we can hope they turn out to be the guy. That makes more sense.


It is kind of irritating though when the Pens have cap space for a high quality player and they can't get one. Not their fault though. All these free agents have somewhere in mind that they wanna go.


That's the thing:

1. This is the first year we had cap space
2. There were only 3 or 4 UFAs worth pursuing
3. The player has to want to come here as much as we want to sign them

The cap space doesn't go away, so we have it during the season if a trade arises. Nice thing is, if we do find a trade, we don't have to work out a deal that is based around moving salary to accommodate the new player.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Noise on Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:57 pm

This is true. But I can't say I don't empathize with the frustration most fans are feeling at this summer.

When we talk about trades though, look at Nash & Ryan. We don't have the assets to acquire them, and I'm not sure that the prices on upcoming UFAs are going to be super cheap this deadline. Maybe we could get Iginla if Calgary's in the toilet again. My dream is Corey Perry, but even if he was on the block, I'm sure someone could beat the Pens best trade package which would probably look like Tangradi + Kennedy + Harrington + 1st.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Pitt87 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:58 am

bhaw wrote:
That's the thing:

1. This is the first year we had cap space
2. There were only 3 or 4 UFAs worth pursuing
3. The player has to want to come here as much as we want to sign them

The cap space doesn't go away, so we have it during the season if a trade arises. Nice thing is, if we do find a trade, we don't have to work out a deal that is based around moving salary to accommodate the new player.


That calls into question our selection criteria. Not getting really anyone is disappointing, especially since the last few FA signings have been busts. Its ok to sign supporting guys, which tend to be very helpful when you have stars like we do, especially on defense.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby bhaw on Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:50 pm

Pitt87 wrote:
bhaw wrote:
That's the thing:

1. This is the first year we had cap space
2. There were only 3 or 4 UFAs worth pursuing
3. The player has to want to come here as much as we want to sign them

The cap space doesn't go away, so we have it during the season if a trade arises. Nice thing is, if we do find a trade, we don't have to work out a deal that is based around moving salary to accommodate the new player.


That calls into question our selection criteria. Not getting really anyone is disappointing, especially since the last few FA signings have been busts. Its ok to sign supporting guys, which tend to be very helpful when you have stars like we do, especially on defense.


What "guys" are you talking about that we should have signed? We are loaded with bottom 6 forwards and bottom pairing dmen. Suter was the only true top 4. How shallow the UFA dmen were was apparent by the fact that Bryan Allen was the 2nd most coveted defenseman this offseason... and he made bank. On D, if we were getting anyone, it was a top 4, and there was only one who would make an impact and be any better than what we got. Suter had no desire to play in the East. I find it hard to fault Shero or management for not going out and paying $5m to some guy who is a bottom pairing guy and hoping he can be top 4.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby meow on Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:36 pm

Pitt87 wrote:
bhaw wrote:
That's the thing:

1. This is the first year we had cap space
2. There were only 3 or 4 UFAs worth pursuing
3. The player has to want to come here as much as we want to sign them

The cap space doesn't go away, so we have it during the season if a trade arises. Nice thing is, if we do find a trade, we don't have to work out a deal that is based around moving salary to accommodate the new player.


That calls into question our selection criteria. Not getting really anyone is disappointing, especially since the last few FA signings have been busts. Its ok to sign supporting guys, which tend to be very helpful when you have stars like we do, especially on defense.

That kind of thinking turns into getting someone to just to get someone. That is extraordinarily dumb for a gm to think like that.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby RainbowsAndCottonCandy on Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:33 pm

I for one hate money and think we should spend it for the sake of having less...
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Pitt87 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:16 pm

meow wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
bhaw wrote:
That's the thing:

1. This is the first year we had cap space
2. There were only 3 or 4 UFAs worth pursuing
3. The player has to want to come here as much as we want to sign them

The cap space doesn't go away, so we have it during the season if a trade arises. Nice thing is, if we do find a trade, we don't have to work out a deal that is based around moving salary to accommodate the new player.


That calls into question our selection criteria. Not getting really anyone is disappointing, especially since the last few FA signings have been busts. Its ok to sign supporting guys, which tend to be very helpful when you have stars like we do, especially on defense.

That kind of thinking turns into getting someone to just to get someone. That is extraordinarily dumb for a gm to think like that.


If you need to fill a roster, how is identifying an upgrade for a role player (PP specialist at defense, big body forward, etc) dumb? If you have cap space and you have spots to fill, I think your job as GM is to sign the best available player. What's dumb is going after Parise, Semin, and Suter and getting literally no one. Its an obvious miss.

As a GM, if you can spend, you spend. There is no bank for cap space...
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby bhaw on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:27 pm

If everyone accepted 1 year deals, that would make sense.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Defence21 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:58 am

Pitt87 wrote:
meow wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
bhaw wrote:
That's the thing:

1. This is the first year we had cap space
2. There were only 3 or 4 UFAs worth pursuing
3. The player has to want to come here as much as we want to sign them

The cap space doesn't go away, so we have it during the season if a trade arises. Nice thing is, if we do find a trade, we don't have to work out a deal that is based around moving salary to accommodate the new player.


That calls into question our selection criteria. Not getting really anyone is disappointing, especially since the last few FA signings have been busts. Its ok to sign supporting guys, which tend to be very helpful when you have stars like we do, especially on defense.

That kind of thinking turns into getting someone to just to get someone. That is extraordinarily dumb for a gm to think like that.


If you need to fill a roster, how is identifying an upgrade for a role player (PP specialist at defense, big body forward, etc) dumb? If you have cap space and you have spots to fill, I think your job as GM is to sign the best available player. What's dumb is going after Parise, Semin, and Suter and getting literally no one. Its an obvious miss.

As a GM, if you can spend, you spend. There is no bank for cap space...

There are a couple flaws with your argument.

1. The Penguins don't need to fill their roster. They're pretty well set with, if I'm not mistaken, enough players to dress a full lineup each night with several healthy scratches.

2. What players specifically were upgrades that Shero could have targeted? I'll mention a PP specialist on defense and a big body forward, as those are the roles you mentioned.

3. How is it "dumb" to go after players and not get them? Parise and Suter wanted to sign together and wanted to play close to home -- and Suter was dead set against coming to the Eastern Conference. Last I checked, the Penguins couldn't just up and physically change locations and also change conferences. Secondly, not sure where you heard that Shero went after Semin. In fact, it was the other way around -- Semin went after the Penguins, who had little/no interest.

4. As a GM, if you can improve, you improve. There IS a bank for cap space within a season. Well, not technically, but any player the Penguins trade for at the deadline will have a reduced cap hit based on the prorated nature of contracts. Money not spent now is extra room to make a big splash when it matters: heading into the playoffs.

5. Why would a GM bring in players just for the sake of bringing in players, thus hampering himself and tying his hands with regard to future acquisitions through trade? Having flexibility is important. Signing mid-level free agents to inflated contracts just to make moves is idiotic.

6. Most free agents aren't signing one year deals That means most players Shero could have signed would have an impact on the salary cap for years to come. Does it really sound smart to you to sign players now just because the cap space is there, then run into major problems in a year or two, when the cap space might not be there?

I'm disappointed this summer has been slow. But your argument really makes sense on zero levels.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Luckybreak on Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:34 am

Defence21 wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
meow wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
bhaw wrote:
That's the thing:

1. This is the first year we had cap space
2. There were only 3 or 4 UFAs worth pursuing
3. The player has to want to come here as much as we want to sign them

The cap space doesn't go away, so we have it during the season if a trade arises. Nice thing is, if we do find a trade, we don't have to work out a deal that is based around moving salary to accommodate the new player.


That calls into question our selection criteria. Not getting really anyone is disappointing, especially since the last few FA signings have been busts. Its ok to sign supporting guys, which tend to be very helpful when you have stars like we do, especially on defense.

That kind of thinking turns into getting someone to just to get someone. That is extraordinarily dumb for a gm to think like that.


If you need to fill a roster, how is identifying an upgrade for a role player (PP specialist at defense, big body forward, etc) dumb? If you have cap space and you have spots to fill, I think your job as GM is to sign the best available player. What's dumb is going after Parise, Semin, and Suter and getting literally no one. Its an obvious miss.

As a GM, if you can spend, you spend. There is no bank for cap space...

There are a couple flaws with your argument.

1. The Penguins don't need to fill their roster. They're pretty well set with, if I'm not mistaken, enough players to dress a full lineup each night with several healthy scratches.

2. What players specifically were upgrades that Shero could have targeted? I'll mention a PP specialist on defense and a big body forward, as those are the roles you mentioned.

3. How is it "dumb" to go after players and not get them? Parise and Suter wanted to sign together and wanted to play close to home -- and Suter was dead set against coming to the Eastern Conference. Last I checked, the Penguins couldn't just up and physically change locations and also change conferences. Secondly, not sure where you heard that Shero went after Semin. In fact, it was the other way around -- Semin went after the Penguins, who had little/no interest.

4. As a GM, if you can improve, you improve. There IS a bank for cap space within a season. Well, not technically, but any player the Penguins trade for at the deadline will have a reduced cap hit based on the prorated nature of contracts. Money not spent now is extra room to make a big splash when it matters: heading into the playoffs.

5. Why would a GM bring in players just for the sake of bringing in players, thus hampering himself and tying his hands with regard to future acquisitions through trade? Having flexibility is important. Signing mid-level free agents to inflated contracts just to make moves is idiotic.

6. Most free agents aren't signing one year deals That means most players Shero could have signed would have an impact on the salary cap for years to come. Does it really sound smart to you to sign players now just because the cap space is there, then run into major problems in a year or two, when the cap space might not be there?

I'm disappointed this summer has been slow. But your argument really makes sense on zero levels.


Another factor not mentioned is that UFAs are cashing in as much as possible, as long term as possible with fear over future CBA limitations. It is a particularly bad year regarding the available talent and what they were seeking, but the Pens are not the only 'contender' to have ample cap space (see WAS, DET, NYR etc). Yes it's frustrating but I'm far happier avoiding the mega contracts for questionable talent till Shero has a grasp on future financial restrictions, thus ensuring he can retain genuine stars like Malkin and Letang.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Nizzy on Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:59 am

I can't figure out the logic of why the former Rocket Richard winner needs a 40 goal scoring winger. The team didn't win a cup with one. We won a cup with Center depth, sick defense, and a hot Fleury.

Put the extra cap money into a deadline defenseman.

09- cup
10- no defense
11- sid/geno hurt, staal couldnt step up
12- no defensive system at all

fix the defense. dont need a parise.

need a gill and scuds.

maf will be fine too just give him another 08-09 quality defensive core.

end
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby sil on Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:27 am

Nizzy wrote:I can't figure out the logic of why the former Rocket Richard winner needs a 40 goal scoring winger. The team didn't win a cup with one. We won a cup with Center depth, sick defense, and a hot Fleury.

Put the extra cap money into a deadline defenseman.

09- cup
10- no defense
11- sid/geno hurt, staal couldnt step up
12- no defensive system at all

fix the defense. dont need a parise.

need a gill and scuds.

maf will be fine too just give him another 08-09 quality defensive core.

end


It seems the plan right now is to fix the defense from within (drafting and developing), which is why I think they wanted Parise so badly.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:57 pm

Defence21 wrote:4. As a GM, if you can improve, you improve. There IS a bank for cap space within a season. Well, not technically, but any player the Penguins trade for at the deadline will have a reduced cap hit based on the prorated nature of contracts. Money not spent now is extra room to make a big splash when it matters: heading into the playoffs.


That's my point. Our top 4 defenders right now are Letang - Orpik and Martin - Niskanen. Moving Michalek and promoting Nisky is not an improvement.

Saving cap space is a risk. Its more like a call option than an account; there is no guarantee that your option will benefit you. Sometimes assets cost more than you can pay, and other times the assets available are worthless. We've been rather fortunate to be in a position to be a buyer at the deadline, but its not a guarantee that you are in that position each year.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:17 pm

Unless you are adding 2 top end players, the pens have more cap space then they will ever need at the deadline.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Defence21 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:04 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Unless you are adding 2 top end players, the pens have more cap space then they will ever need at the deadline.

Point is, how many free agents worth signing are going to accept one-year deals? Remember, signing a player isn't just bumping someone out of the way, but using one of the 50 professional contracts allowed. Given that the Penguins are pushing 50, they can't just sign players to risky deals when the consequence is potentially losing a prospect.
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:20 pm

They won't miss someone like Peters or Smith if they actually fill up the 50 man limit
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Re: Pens' track record in luring free agents

Postby Defence21 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:57 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:They won't miss someone like Peters or Smith if they actually fill up the 50 man limit

But they might force some depth off the NHL roster that might get claimed on waivers. I'm not against signing players -- just not for signing players simply because there is cap space to do so.
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