Historical debates, all time rankings etc

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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby Gaucho on Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:15 am

Oh, I thought this was without Russians.

And the goalie is
Spoiler:
Corey Hirsch
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby mikey287 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:07 am

Gaucho wrote:Oh, I thought this was without Russians.

And the goalie is
Spoiler:
Corey Hirsch


Oh was it supposed to be? :oops:

The OP said all of Europe, and then mentioned Kovalev and Bondra...both born in the USSR (though Bondra would represent Slovakia internationally).

And you are correct, very good.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby Gaucho on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:23 am

I do consider the Soviet Union to be a part of Europe. If Russians are included, I'd definitely bump Sundin in favor of Fedorov.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby mikey287 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:27 am

Gaucho wrote:I do consider the Soviet Union to be a part of Europe. If Russians are included, I'd definitely bump Sundin in favor of Fedorov.


Bleh, not that big of a fan of Sundin, though I respect him. So much better in person than on TV, but Fedorov coasting through the regular season was as good as Sundin trying to will his above average teams into the playoffs. Fedorov's best blows Sundin's best out of the water, Fedorov was better offensively, way better defensively, faster, has a better playoff history...let's see if Sundin gets into the last 3 of the top-10 here...coming up later today provided I can take out a few minutes...
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby Gaucho on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:42 am

mikey287 wrote:
Gaucho wrote:I do consider the Soviet Union to be a part of Europe. If Russians are included, I'd definitely bump Sundin in favor of Fedorov.


Bleh, not that big of a fan of Sundin, though I respect him. So much better in person than on TV, but Fedorov coasting through the regular season was as good as Sundin trying to will his above average teams into the playoffs. Fedorov's best blows Sundin's best out of the water, Fedorov was better offensively, way better defensively, faster, has a better playoff history...let's see if Sundin gets into the last 3 of the top-10 here...coming up later today provided I can take out a few minutes...


Oh, don't get me wrong, it's no contest between Fedorov and Sundin. The last three should be Stastny, Selanne, and Bure, imho.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby mikey287 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:37 pm

8. Teemu Selänne - 2x First-Team AS, 2x Second-Team AS. 3x led the league in goals, 5x top-3 in goals, 6x top-10 (12th all-time). 5x top-10 in assists. 7x top-10 in points (19th all-time). 1x champion. 5x Finnish Olympian (plus a 1992 Canada Cup). Copious amounts of international experience in big tournaments and lots of success. Selanne struggled through the C&G Era but still was a dominant goal scorer during that time. Selanne appeared to be near finished around the time of the 2005 lockout but re-emerged as an offensive threat with the Ducks and became a 40-goal scorer again late in his career. He also captured an elusive Stanley Cup despite a lackluster playoff resume that plagued him throughout his career. He's a bit of a one-dimensional force, but it's powerful enough to make it worthwhile. He burst on the scene in his rookie season by scoring 76 goals (and shooting his gloves out of the air with his stick) with Winnipeg.

9. Zdeno Chára - 1x Norris Trophy winner. 2x First-Team AS, 4x Second-Team AS. Top-10 points among defensemen: (4th, 10th), Top-10 goals AD: (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th). 4x top-5 in plus/minus. Since leaving the Islanders (where he was a minus-61), he's been a plus-210. Norris finishes (in order): 7, 2, 4, 3, 1, 8, 3, 3. Smattering of Hart Trophy consideration over the years as well. 1x Champion. As Lidstrom slowed down, Chara became one of the ultimate defensemen of the generation. His hulking size and nasty disposition made him a stalwart on defense once he warmed up to the NHL game. Chara is an able puck-mover with one of the hardest shots in league history. Quietly he has eight consecutive 40-point seasons (plus a 39 in 74 game effort right before that to make it nine straight, effectively). A well-conditioned athlete, Chara's tremendous stamina has allowed him to play the second-most total minutes in the NHL since 2003 (Lidstrom). Has been the engine that has made the Bruins go since joining up with Claude Julien in the organization. Oversaw two different goalies lead the NHL in GAA and save pct. on three occasions (also oversaw Hasek's 2nd place GAA job well past his prime, and Lalime's 5th place showing - by far, a career best).

10. Peter Šťastný - I'm going to make an exception here for Stastny, because his resume looks so impressive because he went head-to-head against two of the top four players in history throughout his career. All of the following figures are with Gretzky and Lemieux removed. Hart: 3, 5, 6, 10, 10. AST (C): 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5. Top-10 point finishes: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5. Top-10 assist finishes: 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 7. Top-10 goal finishes: 10, 10, 10. It would look even more impressive if I removed Gretzky's (especially) and Lemieux's top power play linemates, and might even be more fair to Stastny, but this is good enough for me. Stastny was the second highest scoring player in the 1980's (Gretzky). Stastny lost some of his early and very good years in the communist Czechoslovakia where he was recognized as a very good player or else he could have been an even more well-known NHLer. He played on a fairly weakly organized Quebec team for most of his career, but did up his game when the Nordiques needed him too. He was a chippy player that wasn't afraid to stand up for himself. He was a smart, craft player that was one of the finest playmakers of his era. He played on an outpost team most of his career and there was still some European bias that existed in the league at that time, despite that, he gets a solid fistful of Hart Trophy recognition and Gretzky/Lemieux-removed All-Star Team nods at center.

Honorable mention (no order): Pavel Bure, Ilya Kovalchuk, Pavel Datsyuk, Mats Sundin, Sergei Zubov
Intentionally left off the list (in favor of complete or near-complete careers): Alexander Ovechkin, Evgeni Malkin, Stan Mikita

Short list:
1. Nicklas Lidstrom (SWE)
2. Dominik Hasek (CZE)
3. Jaromir Jagr (CZE)
4. Jari Kurri (FIN)
5. Borje Salming (SWE)
6. Peter Forsberg (SWE)
7. Sergei Fedorov (RUS)
8. Teemu Selanne (FIN)
9. Zdeno Chara (SVK)
10. Peter Stastny (SVK)

HM (no order): Pavel Bure (RUS), Ilya Kovalchuk (RUS), Pavel Datsyuk (RUS), Mats Sundin (SWE), Sergei Zubov (RUS), Craig Adams (BRU)
Incomplete: Alexander Ovechkin (RUS), Evgeni Malkin (RUS)
Deemed not eligible: Stan Mikita (Canadian-raised)

How's it look, any glaring omissions? Thoughts? Comments? From time to time I'll ignore someone very obvious just on pure brain flatulence...
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:28 pm

TIL Stan Mikita wasn't a Canadian... had to have been one of the first Euros in the league, no?
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby Rylan on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:12 pm

Intentions was all of Europe including Soviets/Russians.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby JS© on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:28 pm

MRandall25 wrote:TIL Stan Mikita wasn't a Canadian... had to have been one of the first Euros in the league, no?


Slovak born but I wouldn't consider him a "Euro" since he moved to Ontario when he was eight.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby mikey287 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:57 pm

MRandall25 wrote:TIL Stan Mikita wasn't a Canadian... had to have been one of the first Euros in the league, no?


If Mikita was considered European in some weird bizarro world, he'd be 2 to 4, somewhere in there. Probably three. Lidstrom, Hasek, Mikita, Jagr. Yes, Mikita would have been well ahead of his time.

Other Euro-born:
Joe Hall (who died in the 1919 Stanley Cup) was born in England. He was a mean guy, truculent.
Val Hofflinger and Gus Forslund were also Euro-born from the Depression-era.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby Gaucho on Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:06 am

Sort of unrelated, but it is worth noting (probably only to me) that most notable hockey players from the Soviet era were indeed Russians. It was different in soccer, where the Ukraine was predominant. In fact, the great USSR team of the 80s was comprised almost entirely of Ukrainians (from Dinamo Kiev) and Georgians.

/csb
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby Rylan on Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:41 am

I wish I grew up in Europe, or at least a different part of the US, and played soccer against better talent with coaches that would have helped my potential rather than hindered it. :(
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby mikey287 on Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:21 am

Gaucho wrote:Sort of unrelated, but it is worth noting (probably only to me) that most notable hockey players from the Soviet era were indeed Russians. It was different in soccer, where the Ukraine was predominant. In fact, the great USSR team of the 80s was comprised almost entirely of Ukrainians (from Dinamo Kiev) and Georgians.

/csb


Very interesting, Gaucho, thank you. Soviet great Vsevolod Bobrov was a great football and bandy player and by most accounts, he didn't start hockey until he was 23. Though he became dominant in the sport and was among the inaugural players inducted into the IIHF HOF.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby Gaucho on Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:15 pm

23? That is pretty incredible.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby mikey287 on Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:09 pm

Gaucho wrote:23? That is pretty incredible.


Yeah, he was the original "Russian Rocket" long before Bure. The Soviets didn't really start playing hockey until just after WWII. Bobrov was impressed with the game and started playing it...and like most games, he started to dominate it. I think it was Frank Mahovlich that said "give the Soviets a football and they'll win a Super Bowl within three years" - they were well-regarded for their technical ability and tactics. Bobrov really amplified that mantra.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby André on Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:59 am

Mikey287: What do you know and think about Kharlamov? There's a mystique surrounding him after the coach ordered Clarke slash. Hard to compare of course but some people here in Sweden really wants to put him in the Lemieux/Gretzky category.

And on the KLM Russians I'll post more later. It's a tough choice of words but looking at them individually I get the feeling they're sometimes overrated.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby mikey287 on Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:06 am

André wrote:Mikey287: What do you know and think about Kharlamov? There's a mystique surrounding him after the coach ordered Clarke slash. Hard to compare of course but some people here in Sweden really wants to put him in the Lemieux/Gretzky category.

And on the KLM Russians I'll post more later. It's a tough choice of words but looking at them individually I get the feeling they're sometimes overrated.


Well, the thing to consider is that many of the Soviets were greater than the sum of their parts (which is high praise, because they were very skilled). They trained together and played together all the time (unlike the Canadian teams from the time, which came from upwards of 20 different teams) and they trained hard. So much so that the Soviet prime seemed to be earlier rather than later, as a number of them were burnt out by the age of 30 or 31. I look forward to your thoughts on the KLM and anything else you'd like to discuss.

As for Kharlamov, he seems to be a touch overrated. Though I believe he's about the best Soviet forward, but he's not as far as ahead of, say, Sergei Makarov, as mystique might dictate. The quotes surrounding him are very compelling, as you say, the mystique from the slash not to mention the car accident that took his life too soon. He passes the eye test, but it's hard to say he's so, so much better than his teammates, notably the ones on the Green Unit.

In short, I don't recognize him as being better than Fetisov and he might have only been narrowly better than Makarov, if that. But it's very difficult to make such a call, of course...
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby André on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:52 am

mikey287 wrote:
André wrote:Mikey287: What do you know and think about Kharlamov? There's a mystique surrounding him after the coach ordered Clarke slash. Hard to compare of course but some people here in Sweden really wants to put him in the Lemieux/Gretzky category.

And on the KLM Russians I'll post more later. It's a tough choice of words but looking at them individually I get the feeling they're sometimes overrated.


Well, the thing to consider is that many of the Soviets were greater than the sum of their parts (which is high praise, because they were very skilled).


Yes. This is exactly what I've been trying to point out. They were drilled as a unit under military conditions every day for years and years, allowing them to dominate the international stage for a long time.

Individually and in the NHL they don't impress nearly as much as the hype would suggest, however. Sure, they were mostly past their prime when joining the NHL but they weren't that old. A 31 year old Makarov was good (he won the Calder :P), but not among the stars (not even top 20 in scoring). A 29 year old Krutov couldn't perform at all (altough I understand he was worn out and injuried). Larionov joined the NHL aged 29 and was a great two way center, altough never among the league's elite group of players.

Edit: Oh, and well done with the top 10 euros list. About the trivia that's Corey Hirsch but I guess the question wasn't intended for me :D More on Forsberg later. I'll present an argument which is strong if you accept the relevance of PPG if the sample size is more than small (or even great...) and less strong if you don't accept that. Kind of like our Howe vs Lemieux argument.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby mikey287 on Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:12 am

on my phone, so I can't respond fully. But, i'm not overly concerned about players playing in their home country and own system for 10+ years and then coming to a new country, past their prime (31 doesn't seem old, but it was at the time, especially for Soviets) and not winning a lot of major trophies. We saw them against NHL teams and in various high-end tournaments play against the best in the world and not look at all out of place. Though it's largely irrelevant to the U.S. And Canada but check out the World Championships finishes from the late 50's til the fall of the Soviet Union. These guys meant business.

look forward to further discussion when i'm back at a computer.
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Re: Historical debates, all time rankings etc

Postby Rylan on Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:02 pm

so much for "further discussion"...
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