(Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:33 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
HockeyDaddy wrote:I hate to even address this rumor: But how would this make the Penguins better defensively?


Well first off, the source is obviously not that reliable, but for the sake of argument:

How does this make the pens better defensively? The only real way I can answer this is that it doesn't make the them worse and it depends on Shero's overall plan. Someone compared him to Engellend, and while it sorta makes sense, it's a very simplistic comparison. Stoner is a solid stay-at-home dman with solid positional play and not too bad a shot-blocking...Ok, well maybe Mikey was accurate haha

My only issue with him is his ability to play a full season. The past two seasons have been hampered by injury and those his first full seasons. However, if it's Shero's plan to move Despres or Morrow into a full-time role this season, then it makes sense to bring in a guy like this to create a more well-rounded D-core.

All that being said, I can see why Minnesota would require more. While they would get stronger defensively, they're losing a fairly important piece up front which is an area that they're not exactly deep in. If I had to play things out in my head for things to happen in a perfect world, this is what I would do:

To MIN
Martin
Kennedy

To Pitt
Setoguchi
Stoner
2nd round pick

From that point, Dustin Jeffrey would successfully take over Kennedy's spot on the third line. So again, this is a perfect world scenario where Jeffrey was ready to step in and be productive, but who knows how big of an "IF" that is.

Neal-Malkin-Setoguchi
Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis
Cooke-Sutter-Jeffrey


I REALLY REALLY hate to address hockey insider and held off until this post. Not knocking you but why does everyone "sweeten" a deal with Kennedy?
"Insert Team Here" needs more so we have add Kennedy that should do the trick.

Right now unless its for salary cap reasons to make a trade happen Dupuis, Kennedy, Cooke, and Orpik would not be sweetening any deals, it would be the exact opposite. Martin may have some value based on his past reputation I guess but other than not sure what everyone is expecting back for these guys?
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Defence21 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:12 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:
HockeyDaddy wrote:I hate to even address this rumor: But how would this make the Penguins better defensively?


Well first off, the source is obviously not that reliable, but for the sake of argument:

How does this make the pens better defensively? The only real way I can answer this is that it doesn't make the them worse and it depends on Shero's overall plan. Someone compared him to Engellend, and while it sorta makes sense, it's a very simplistic comparison. Stoner is a solid stay-at-home dman with solid positional play and not too bad a shot-blocking...Ok, well maybe Mikey was accurate haha

My only issue with him is his ability to play a full season. The past two seasons have been hampered by injury and those his first full seasons. However, if it's Shero's plan to move Despres or Morrow into a full-time role this season, then it makes sense to bring in a guy like this to create a more well-rounded D-core.

All that being said, I can see why Minnesota would require more. While they would get stronger defensively, they're losing a fairly important piece up front which is an area that they're not exactly deep in. If I had to play things out in my head for things to happen in a perfect world, this is what I would do:

To MIN
Martin
Kennedy

To Pitt
Setoguchi
Stoner
2nd round pick

From that point, Dustin Jeffrey would successfully take over Kennedy's spot on the third line. So again, this is a perfect world scenario where Jeffrey was ready to step in and be productive, but who knows how big of an "IF" that is.

Neal-Malkin-Setoguchi
Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis
Cooke-Sutter-Jeffrey


I REALLY REALLY hate to address hockey insider and held off until this post. Not knocking you but why does everyone "sweeten" a deal with Kennedy?
"Insert Team Here" needs more so we have add Kennedy that should do the trick.

Right now unless its for salary cap reasons to make a trade happen Dupuis, Kennedy, Cooke, and Orpik would not be sweetening any deals, it would be the exact opposite. Martin may have some value based on his past reputation I guess but other than not sure what everyone is expecting back for these guys?

See, that's the problem with fans proposing deals. We really have no idea who has what level of value. How many here would have laughed uncontrollably at the proposal of Goligoski for Neal and Niskanen? Very few saw Goligoski as having true value. Why? Because we, as Penguins fans, didn't like his game. But we, as Penguins fans, aren't employed as NHL professionals. We don't know what's going on in front offices across the league.

Dupuis, Kennedy, Cooke, and Orpik DO have value. They might have flaws in their games, but they're also good, affordable players. Not every player is a star with a high ceiling. Role players have value and often pad trades to help make them more balanced. Kennedy is just one season removed from a 21 goal, 45 point campaign. He's polarizing in Pittsburgh, so his value is either sky high or basement low, depending on who you speak with. Fact is, he's likely viewed as a valuable commodity across the league -- not overly sought after, but not viewed as a waste. Will he fetch a big return on his own? No. But as an added piece to a trade, he could be the player that tips the scales. And let's be honest here, Setoguchi, Stoner, and a 2nd isn't exactly a blockbuster trade. Kennedy might not have much value in a deal for, say Bobby Ryan, but in a deal for Setoguchi, he's in the realm of reason.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:21 am

other team's announcers (and the vs/nbc guys) often speak pretty highly of kennedy. half of that is, "who cares, what do they know?", but the other half of it is indicative of how he's perceived around the league. regardless of what his actual value is and his actual abilities are right now, when you get to a milestone like 20 goals, it sticks in people's brains.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Defence21 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:54 am

shmenguin wrote:other team's announcers (and the vs/nbc guys) often speak pretty highly of kennedy. half of that is, "who cares, what do they know?", but the other half of it is indicative of how he's perceived around the league. regardless of what his actual value is and his actual abilities are right now, when you get to a milestone like 20 goals, it sticks in people's brains.

Bingo. Think of how so many people here want Glencross. He fits right into the Kennedy, Dupuis, Orpik grouping of quality role players who have holes in their games, but also are quite affordable. Just because a player isn't a superstar doesn't mean they have zero value. Quite the opposite. Sometimes lesser players have more valuable and can be used as a "the sum is greater than the parts" type package that nets a quality return.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby HockeyDaddy on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:06 am

Defence21 wrote:
shmenguin wrote:other team's announcers (and the vs/nbc guys) often speak pretty highly of kennedy. half of that is, "who cares, what do they know?", but the other half of it is indicative of how he's perceived around the league. regardless of what his actual value is and his actual abilities are right now, when you get to a milestone like 20 goals, it sticks in people's brains.

Bingo. Think of how so many people here want Glencross. He fits right into the Kennedy, Dupuis, Orpik grouping of quality role players who have holes in their games, but also are quite affordable. Just because a player isn't a superstar doesn't mean they have zero value. Quite the opposite. Sometimes lesser players have more valuable and can be used as a "the sum is greater than the parts" type package that nets a quality return.


Part of the problem is that we have been so blessed with high-end talent in Pittsburgh that some fans lose sight of the fact that it is ok that not every player is going to be a superstar. There have been many teams that have been successful without marquee type players. We don't need to look much further than the first post-lockout team that featured Mario, Crosby, Palffy, Recchi, LeClair, Gonchar, etc. and completely crapped the bed.

This team needs more sandpaper, not 30 goal scorers. "The sum is greater than the parts" attitude is exactly the way that RS, DB, and the team need to approach this season.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:16 pm

I kind of disagree with a lot of the sentiment on Kennedy, Dupuis etc. There is a huge difference between having value as an NHL player and having the trade value that everyone is expecting when they say "They would want more, throw in Kennedy" comparing to what we need.

Right now across the league we will not get better or equal players in return if we want to trade Martin, Kennedy, Dupuis or Orpik.
3 are in their 30's, 1 has a bad contract and one is an under performing 3rd liner.

Being an ok NHL player and having trade value back for a contender are two seperate things.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:21 pm

you have weird expectations of 3rd liners
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:42 pm

shmenguin wrote:you have weird expectations of 3rd liners


I have weird expectations of 3rd liners because I think I think their trade value is limited? Not sure I follow. I simply said people overrate the trade value of some of our players. I personally dont expect much back for them, not sure how that bleeds into my expectations. Or because I said Kennedy has been under performing? Which he has been in his role. By a large margin.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:22 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I REALLY REALLY hate to address hockey insider and held off until this post. Not knocking you but why does everyone "sweeten" a deal with Kennedy?
"Insert Team Here" needs more so we have add Kennedy that should do the trick.

Right now unless its for salary cap reasons to make a trade happen Dupuis, Kennedy, Cooke, and Orpik would not be sweetening any deals, it would be the exact opposite. Martin may have some value based on his past reputation I guess but other than not sure what everyone is expecting back for these guys?


Part of the reason why I threw in Kennedy was actually a mistake on my part by forgetting that they signed Parise. The initial reason I was throwing him in was looking at their roster, losing Setoguchi would take away what little depth they had at forward. Remembering that I forgot Parise was signed, I was going to edit that, but never did. Again remembering the Parise signing now makes me feel they would not need to throw in a forward.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:31 am

HockeyDaddy wrote:This team needs more sandpaper, not 30 goal scorers. "The sum is greater than the parts" attitude is exactly the way that RS, DB, and the team need to approach this season.


Why do so many posters here fight over what 'one' specific thing they feel needs changing. We clearly need a 30 goal winger, more size/sandpaper, and probably some help on defense. A better PP coach would be nice, too.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Zach6668 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:35 am

We need 4 30-goal scorers to be successful? 9 teams, including some good ones, didn't even have one last year.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Sarcastic on Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:06 am

Zach6668 wrote:We need 4 30-goal scorers to be successful? 9 teams, including some good ones, didn't even have one last year.


I think the question should be if we are building a great team or an average one.

And do we want Sid to keep playing with substandard wingers for the rest of his career? I don't get it. It'd be like asking Mario to play with his early wingers and never getting him Recchi, Stevens, or Tocchet. It doesn't make sense. It feels more to me like drinking team cool-aid and saying that it's ok, that everything is great, and going out of the way to not criticise Shero.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Luckybreak on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:49 am

Sarcastic wrote:
Zach6668 wrote:We need 4 30-goal scorers to be successful? 9 teams, including some good ones, didn't even have one last year.


I think the question should be if we are building a great team or an average one.

And do we want Sid to keep playing with substandard wingers for the rest of his career? I don't get it. It'd be like asking Mario to play with his early wingers and never getting him Recchi, Stevens, or Tocchet. It doesn't make sense. It feels more to me like drinking team cool-aid and saying that it's ok, that everything is great, and going out of the way to not criticise Shero.


What (other than chasing ZP, avoiding Semin like the plague and courting Doan) might Shero have done differently? Sid hasn’t exactly been ignored (remember Hossa, Kunitz, Billy G and Neal who was pencilled for Crosby's wing). If there is any reason to criticise Shero it is for not drafting sufficiently at wing, though he obviously has a game plan in that regard.

In the cap era every single team will have gaps, building a 'great team' is easier said than done. The D is a more pressing concern than Sid's ‘substandard’ wingers (who scored a combined 51g without Crosby), but given the available cap space I'm reserving judgement till after the trade deadline. Where did I leave that team cool-aid?
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:50 am

Zach touched on it, but it's kinda hard to find a 30-goal scorer who is A) affordable and 2) Not already signed to a ridiculous deal by his current team.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Penspal on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:04 am

Dupuis had the longest scoring streak in the NHL last year, which only stopped because the regular season did. A healthy Sid and Dupuis playing like he did last year take a lot of pressure off the other player on that line. So the trade Dupuis talk is ludicrous.

Kennedy is not paid crazy money, and is going to get 20 goals. He's quick, doesn't complain, he'll fight when called upon, you get what you pay for. He fills a role on the team. I can see teams asking for him, but he's not going to be a throw in on a deal.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Defence21 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:08 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:I kind of disagree with a lot of the sentiment on Kennedy, Dupuis etc. There is a huge difference between having value as an NHL player and having the trade value that everyone is expecting when they say "They would want more, throw in Kennedy" comparing to what we need.

Right now across the league we will not get better or equal players in return if we want to trade Martin, Kennedy, Dupuis or Orpik.
3 are in their 30's, 1 has a bad contract and one is an under performing 3rd liner.

Being an ok NHL player and having trade value back for a contender are two seperate things.

No one is saying a Kennedy, Dupuis, etc is the primary piece for the acquisition of scoring forward. But they certainly could be used as enhancers.

You really think Dupuis, who scored 59 points, had an NHL-high 17-game point streak, tallied 111 hits, finished at +18, and was a central figure on the league's third ranked penalty kill -- has little value? His value isn't high, but he would be wanted around the league and certainly would be the type of player a team would ask for to enhance a deal. Think I'm wrong? Shero specifically asked for Dupuis in addition to Hossa to sweeten the deal several years ago -- after Dupuis had hopped between three teams in a year and at a time when he wasn't anywhere near the player he is now.

How about Kennedy? He had an okay season last year, but has been 1/3 of a line widely recognized as the league's best third line. Two years ago, he scored 21 goals and 45 points. Last season, he was a +10. Kennedy isn't overly physical or overly talented, but he's tenacious, forechecks hard, and plays hard every shift. His value probably is on par with Dupuis', however, if only because of their age difference (Dupuis in his 30s and Kennedy in his mid-20s). Again, Kennedy isn't going to fetch much/anything on his own. But, as a pot sweetener, he does have value.

Once more, I'll reiterate that, while you believe people are overvaluing Kennedy, Dupuis, etc, similar "role players" often are traded for bigger/better players/packages.

- Ryan Whitney for Chris Kunitz AND Eric Tangradi (who thought ANYONE would want Whitney, let alone send a scoring line winger AND a top-50 prospect?)
- Alex Goligoski for James Neal AND Matt Niskanen (Gogo was regarded as a 5th/6th defenseman among Pens fans, yet he brought in a young scoring winger AND a 5th/6th defenseman)
- Brandon Dubinsky, Artem Anisimov, Tim Erixson, and a 1st rounder for Rick Nash (Really?)
- Steve Ott and Adam Pardy for Derek Roy (Adam Pardy = throw-in akin to Kennedy to sweeten deal)

The list can go on. Point is, players generally are undervalued or overvalued by their fanbase. I try to look at things from a neutral perspective, using previous trades as guides, and also realizing that, as fans, we are too emotionally tied to the game and have a difficult time seeing things objectively.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:05 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote: Or because I said Kennedy has been under performing? Which he has been in his role. By a large margin.


if baseless kennedy arguments were an art museum, saying he's underperforming as a 3rd liner by a large margin would be the mona lisa.

plays hard, forechecks, skates well, scores more points per game than a 3rd liner should, sticks up for teammates, fights, knows his role and doesn't complain. and when this team was coached to cycle, he was as good as you could want.

so what expectations do you have of a 3rd liner that aren't met here? that he's not a few inches taller and doesn't kill penalties? that he shouldn't shoot so much?
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Gaucho on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:53 am

shmenguin wrote:
if baseless kennedy arguments were an art museum, saying he's underperforming as a 3rd liner by a large margin would be the mona lisa.



Nice.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby sil on Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:51 am

Gaucho wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
if baseless kennedy arguments were an art museum, saying he's underperforming as a 3rd liner by a large margin would be the mona lisa.



Nice.


Here here!
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:02 am

i pushed the envelope on that one. it was just a hair away from being way too cheesy
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Froggy on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:04 am

shmenguin is the dennis miller of LGP
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby Zach6668 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:27 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Zach6668 wrote:We need 4 30-goal scorers to be successful? 9 teams, including some good ones, didn't even have one last year.


I think the question should be if we are building a great team or an average one.

And do we want Sid to keep playing with substandard wingers for the rest of his career? I don't get it. It'd be like asking Mario to play with his early wingers and never getting him Recchi, Stevens, or Tocchet. It doesn't make sense. It feels more to me like drinking team cool-aid and saying that it's ok, that everything is great, and going out of the way to not criticise Shero.


I mean, having a 4th 30-goal scorer doesn't make this team elite, automatically.

First of all, not a single team in the NHL last year had 4 30-goal scorers. In fact, only 12 teams had 4 20-goal scorers last year. Some of those weren't even elite teams. Calgary did it, Colorado, NY Islanders, Tampa Bay, Toronto, as well, notably.

Only two teams have 3 30-goal scorers, San Jose and New Jersey. Pittsburgh would be in that group with a healthy Crosby.

For the record, Pittsburgh had the highest 5th leading goal scorer (25g), and second highest 4th leading goal scorer (25g, by just 1 behind NJD).

I just don't think adding another goal scorer accomplishes anything at all. That's clearly not our issue.

Obviously I'd like Crosby to play with Zach Parise and Marian Hossa for his whole career, but it's just not realistic. I'll take the line with Dupuis and Kunitz, if you could freeze time to this moment, for the rest of eternity, and have Malkin with Neal and whoever. We'll be a top 5 scoring team, likely even better.

For reference, here's the total number of 30-goal scorers per team last year, plus the totals for the top 5 goal scorers per team:

Code: Select all
ANA - 2 (37, 31, 26, 13, 11)
BOS - 0 (29, 28, 26, 23, 22)
BUF - 1 (30, 26, 20, 19, 17)
CGY - 1 (32, 26, 23, 20, 14)
CAR - 0 (24, 20, 19, 18, 17)
CHI - 1 (33, 29, 29, 23, 22)
COL - 0 (22, 21, 20, 20, 18)
CLB - 1 (30, 20, 16, 14, 12)
DAL - 1 (35, 26, 26, 18, 16)
DET - 0 (29, 25, 23, 22, 19)
EDM - 1 (34, 27, 19, 18, 18)
FLA - 0 (27, 23, 20, 17, 16)
LAK - 0 (25, 22, 22, 21, 18)
MIN - 0 (24, 22, 19, 15, 14)
MTL - 2 (35, 33, 18, 17, 16)
NAS - 0 (27, 24, 19, 19, 19)
NJD - 3 (37, 31, 30, 26, 21)
NYI - 2 (36, 31, 24, 20, 18)
NYR - 1 (41, 29, 25, 17, 16)
OTT - 2 (35, 34, 27, 19, 17)
PHI - 1 (37, 28, 28, 24, 19)
PHX - 1 (35, 24, 22, 17, 15)
PIT - 2 (50, 40, 26, 25, 25)
SJS - 3 (31, 31, 30, 18, 17)
STL - 0 (24, 21, 19, 19, 17)
TBL - 1 (60, 25, 24, 22, 20)
TOR - 1 (37, 25, 23, 20, 18)
VAN - 1 (30, 28, 22, 18, 16)
WAS - 1 (38, 21, 20, 18, 16)
WPG - 1 (30, 28, 24, 18, 17)
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:03 pm

shmenguin wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote: Or because I said Kennedy has been under performing? Which he has been in his role. By a large margin.


if baseless kennedy arguments were an art museum, saying he's underperforming as a 3rd liner by a large margin would be the mona lisa.

plays hard, forechecks, skates well, scores more points per game than a 3rd liner should, sticks up for teammates, fights, knows his role and doesn't complain. and when this team was coached to cycle, he was as good as you could want.

so what expectations do you have of a 3rd liner that aren't met here? that he's not a few inches taller and doesn't kill penalties? that he shouldn't shoot so much?


The funny thing about these discussions is they go either way depending on what the other person personally wants. All of sudden, since we need trade bait, this board believes that Dupuis, Kennedy, Orpik, Cooke have value. I have sat her for months watching games and listening to people bash Kennedy over and over again for his p!ss poor play and now that its the off season "what else do you want out of the guy???????" "OMG - 3rd liner! WTF"?. And in 3 months when he is playing like has for two years and the team needs victories everyone will be screaming "he brings nothing", "trade him for a chik fil a sandwich!"

Its all bunk. Throw all the stats you want out there, he has not played well or anywhere near well enough even for his slot in the lineup.

Finally on the trade front. Of course we could get a team to take them possibly and I hope we do. But right now the Pens have areas that need addressed and I dont think any of them get addressed with Dupuis (nice stats in post above but he is old and probably playing a line above where he should no matter what his scoring streak was), Kennedy or whoever as throw ins to sweeten a deal.

The above poster who listed those trades - incomparable. If you laugh at what Columbus got for Rick Nash you have to have a real real real low perception of the talent Dupuis and Kennedy bring night in and night out.
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby shmenguin on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:23 pm

shmenguin wrote:so what expectations do you have of a 3rd liner that aren't met here?
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Re: (Official) Free Agent and Offseason Discussion Thread

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:01 pm

shmenguin wrote:
shmenguin wrote:so what expectations do you have of a 3rd liner that aren't met here?


Besides the one you wrote? Which were clearly biased? Saying he does those things you listed which would make him an ideal 3rd line player or watching him and the other 2nd tier forwards on this team get pushed around, Not play defense, not cycle at all and play a mostly perimiter game?

You can have your version which clearly, along with Dupius and Cooke will give us the depth we need to not get pushed aroud and easily schemed to death in a playoff series.

If I would have known this about TK I woul have bought his jersey.
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