Tangradi

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Re: Tangradi

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:21 pm

I am not saying Bylsma is not to blame some, of course he is, he could certainly be in over his head. But when is anyone going to really look at the roster and think "man, we need to get some better depth and d players all around". Here is what I have seen the past few months on this board:

1. Tangradi is going to be solid and I cant wait to throw it in your face when he is (as if being down on him now as a prospect is so unreasonable).
2. Kennedy is the perfect 3rd liner! What more could you want!
3. We have Sid! We have Malkin! We have Neal! Who can play with us!
4. We had an amazing winning streak! (ignoring our losing streak or some other bouts of poor play). The playoffs we just lost our heads!
5. Sutter can provide just what we need! Not much drop off from Staal as a perfect 3rd liner!
6. Add Kennedy and Dupuis to a d prospect and get Ryan or Nash!
7, If Lovejoy doesnt give up that goal we win!

We dont suck, we have talent so dont get all "I guess we shouldnt even play the season now" on me. It just seems to me that everyone is overlooking some valid roster issues (beyond Martin) and trying to overcompensate by blasting the coach or overvaluing our players.

Our defense overall is not good in our end, our penalty killers are suspect on defense, our 3rd and 4th lines are below average for what you need, we lack size/grit and do not cycle, and we lost Staal and Michalek (who by the way was on the ice for pretty much the entire series and was on for about 1/3 as many goals as Orpik).

- the reason we started to falter down the stretch is because teams stopped being scared and started attacking us, we didnt get lazy all of a sudden like everyone wants to believe. Also, Fleury carried us to a large degree during the season. There is the strong possibility he completely wore down and was our team MVP November to February.
- the reason the playoffs went bad is because the Flyers kept adjusting and after the first period Bylsma ran out of adjustments to cover for our lack of talent at certain spots. The Flyers could keep coming because eventually Bylsmas adjustments were not going to keep working. The Pens took away the middle, the Flyers chipped, the Pens took away the chip, the flyers carried the puck, the Pens clogged, the Flyers chipped and chased. Eventually it just came down to the fact we do not have good defensmen and solid all around forwards - and its going to show TEN FOLD over a series than game by game (see: Washington Capitals 2007 - 2010).
- Who is going to kill penalties for us next year on D? Letang/Orpik then Martin/Engellend or Nisky? Ugh.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:35 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:By the time this thread reaches page 20 the discussion will somehow be about Vitale.


lol
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Re: Tangradi

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:41 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:By the time this thread reaches page 20 the discussion will somehow be about Vitale.


lol


Nah. Vitale will be done by 15... It'll be 4th line AHL'ers if it makes it to 20.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:16 pm

Nizzy wrote:Bylsma should have known how bad Martin was playing, and used Despres after game 2.


Yes.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Sarcastic on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:19 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:IF Martin is able to return to form, Martin/Despres and Letang/Morrow could be killer tandems.


That sounds good. I think that Martin needs to be paired with a guy who's good defensively and one able to give/take some pounding. Putting a softee like Michalek with another softee like Martin was a terrible recipe last year.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby DesertPenguin on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:39 am

Sarcastic wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:IF Martin is able to return to form, Martin/Despres and Letang/Morrow could be killer tandems.


That sounds good. I think that Martin needs to be paired with a guy who's good defensively and one able to give/take some pounding. Putting a softee like Michalek with another softee like Martin was a terrible recipe last year.


Agreed. If Despres has to start the year on the 3rd pairing, you need to have:
Letang - Martin
Niskanen - Orpik

as your top 4. A potential Niskanen - Martin pairing keeps me up nights.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby mikey287 on Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:34 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:IF Martin is able to return to form, Martin/Despres and Letang/Morrow could be killer tandems.


That sounds good. I think that Martin needs to be paired with a guy who's good defensively and one able to give/take some pounding. Putting a softee like Michalek with another softee like Martin was a terrible recipe last year.


If I recall correctly, Martin was paired with defensive-minded, physical Bryce Salvador an awful lot...but was also assigned to babysit the questionable defense of Johnny Oduya...
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Re: Tangradi

Postby penmyst on Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:12 am

Nizzy wrote:I just logged in to say I really hope Bylsma is canned early next year. I hope he gets toned out like Therrien did. I still thinks its incredible how he doesnt get more blame around Pittsburgh-media for that pathetic series vs Philly.



How many in the Pittsburgh media know enough about hockey to even question HCDB and his lack of adaptation? The players seem to like him... and to the media that don't know squat about hockey that's good enough. As for the ones that do know a bit about hockey, a couple of them are wearing Pens' jocks like Wacko Jacko wore surgical masks if you get the picture.

It will certainly be interesting to see how this season plays out. HCDB should be under the magnifying glass. His glaring unwillingness or incompetence at making adjustments for his team will be heavily scrutinized. The only move in his repertoire when being outcoached is to put Malkin and Crosby together. It's about time he gets called out on the abysmally underachieving PP. And he might need to turn the heat up on some of the name players if they aren't doing what he wants them to do. I'm not talking FHCMT infamous "soff" and "worse D in league" heat... but something has to give.

Since FHCMT left, the Pens have only had one good playoff run. That was the Cup year, the year directly after FHCMT was canned. The team still had his fingerprints all over them. As time has passed, the Pens have put together several consecutive years of underperformance in the playoffs. Disastrous losses to inferior teams in Montreal and TB (blowing a 3-1 lead in the latter), and an shame-inducing whipping at the hands of a Philly team that was more evenly matched than the scores let on. How in the world the guy got out of that without being fired, I still cannot fathom. If the Pens stumble out of the gate or dredge it up into the middle point of the season though, I think he's gone.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby DesertPenguin on Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:42 am

penmyst wrote:
Nizzy wrote:I just logged in to say I really hope Bylsma is canned early next year. I hope he gets toned out like Therrien did. I still thinks its incredible how he doesnt get more blame around Pittsburgh-media for that pathetic series vs Philly.



How many in the Pittsburgh media know enough about hockey to even question HCDB and his lack of adaptation? The players seem to like him... and to the media that don't know squat about hockey that's good enough. As for the ones that do know a bit about hockey, a couple of them are wearing Pens' jocks like Wacko Jacko wore surgical masks if you get the picture.

It will certainly be interesting to see how this season plays out. HCDB should be under the magnifying glass. His glaring unwillingness or incompetence at making adjustments for his team will be heavily scrutinized. The only move in his repertoire when being outcoached is to put Malkin and Crosby together. It's about time he gets called out on the abysmally underachieving PP. And he might need to turn the heat up on some of the name players if they aren't doing what he wants them to do. I'm not talking FHCMT infamous "soff" and "worse D in league" heat... but something has to give.

Since FHCMT left, the Pens have only had one good playoff run. That was the Cup year, the year directly after FHCMT was canned. The team still had his fingerprints all over them. As time has passed, the Pens have put together several consecutive years of underperformance in the playoffs. Disastrous losses to inferior teams in Montreal and TB (blowing a 3-1 lead in the latter), and an shame-inducing whipping at the hands of a Philly team that was more evenly matched than the scores let on. How in the world the guy got out of that without being fired, I still cannot fathom. If the Pens stumble out of the gate or dredge it up into the middle point of the season though, I think he's gone.


I think its Eastern Conference Finals or Bust for Bylsma this season, barring some ridiculous spree of injuries like we had in 2011. Ill blame 2010 in Montreal on the hangover from 2 long playoff years coupled with the loss of Gill and Scuderi. I'll blame 2011 on the loss of the two best forwards on the planet. 2012, that one is on DB. He's gotta put the pieces back together for the regular season and then get these guys in the right mindset to play playoff hockey, or it's time to go in a new direction. I wouldn't even mind giving Granato the reins if DB is shipped out.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:37 am

If you're giving him excuses in 2010 and 11, why not give him some in 2012. Martin had a concussion, Crosby missed most of the year and wasn't back in form. Fleury had a bad playoff. So really if he doesn't go all the way in 2012-13, its really just one bad year. Afterall, in the last real season that was played, the Penguins won the cup.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Nizzy on Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:23 pm

@penmyst Thats all good points. To be honest I really think this team is vrey different compared to the 09 team than people realize. The only 1-7 defenseman we have from that cup year is Orpik and Letang. Letang was the number 5 or 6 at that time. (Lets be honest Scudz/Gill were the 2nd pair). It was such a big mistake to not give Scuderi his 3.1M. Myself included, Shero, a lot of people, were thinking he was only a bottom pairing. When he already was a 2-4 defenseman. He just won the cup beside Doughty, number 1. If we signed Scuderi long term, we didn't need to bring in Michalek at 4.0m. Having Scuderi from like 09-13 on some 5 year deal would have been VERY CLUTCH until Despres/Morrows are up and ready. Instead we had the patch job of Michalek/Martin which has kind of failed. I really believe they dumped Scuderi, not because HCDB didn't like him as a person, but there was no "PMD" Puck moving defenseman on that line.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby HockeyDaddy on Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:45 pm

Martin and ZM were not "patchwork" of any kind. They were two of the most coveted defensemen of their UFA class. In fact, RS allowed Gonchar to walk in order to sign them. Their addition didn't work out the way EVERYONE had hoped, but to call them "patchwork" is extremely inaccurate. In fact, I remember reading an editorial right after the signing that praised RS for building a championship caliber defense that had the potential to bring multiple Cups to Pittsburgh.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby pcm on Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:50 pm

I agree about Scuderi. Not signing him was a mistake that lead to a bigger mistake (Martin & Michalek). He had no glamor to his game, and so was easily dismissed as a bottom-pairing guy who won the cup and got paid.

Shero is too focused on "PMD", in my opinion. His thinking certainly goes deeper than this, but it's almost like he thinks that if we just have guys on the blue line who can get Sid and Malkin the puck, than we'll be unstoppable. His draft / asset strategy follows suit. I think it's a narrow-minded approach that plagues the front office. Blysma is too focused on his "system", to which everyone in Pittsburgh spoke of in reverence those first few years. But he won't adapt it, which makes the team easy to game-plan against. Shero trys to make the roster to fit the system, which under-utilizes the assets available and leads to a team with serious flaws.

That said, I believe this season (if there is one) will be the year the team takes a step back to take a step forward. That means, being more well-rounded, relying on youngsters, sacrificing excitement for responsibility. I think we'll start to test the durability of our glue guys, like Orpik, Kunitz, Dupuis, Adams, Cooke, Kennedy... and some changes may need to be made. That could very well include Blysma, but I think he's earned the opportunity to prove that he can change things up this year for the better. If he fails, he's gone. But I think he's smart enough and young enough to know to try. So I'm still open-minded, but we'll see
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Re: Tangradi

Postby MRandall25 on Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:25 pm

Do people STILL not realize how hard it would've been to give Scuderi the money he wanted AND to keep the rest of the team together?

Jeez, you act like we had $20 mil of cap space to throw around. That wasn't the case.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby penmyst on Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:11 pm

@nizzy The Pens don't have to be carbon copies of that 09 team.

I think what too many, far too many fans want to believe is that the defensive woes are an individual thing. That might work if it were isolations we could directly point out of a guy being beat 1-on-1.

But hockey is a team sport. The problem this team has had since FHCMT left is a flat out lack of discipline and/or effort in their TEAM DEFENSE. We like to rip Martin to shreds, but the fact is many times there is little to no support from the forwards. The extremely large elephant in the room is the fact that Martin was fine in a defensively responsible NJ system.

While it's great to have individual defenders that can routinely win 1-on-1s, the fact of the matter is that those guys are few and far between as well as being handsomely paid. At the same time, HCDB's system asks the defense to contribute to offensive breakouts and pushes. That's a lot to ask of individuals. Outside of Letang, I don't think there is one Pen capable of providing stud 1-on-1 play as well as contributing offensively. You get warts with all these guys on the current roster. Despres and Morrow look like they'll do it, but they are wet behind the ears and certainly not reliable.

HCDB is the one responsible for the TEAM systems. And as the team has moved further away from FHCMT's strict defensive system, it's showing more and more.

Fans forget that the first year the Pens went to the Finals was the year Crosby suffered that broken leg. The team was ho-hum up to that point, January? Remember how they circled the wagons? Remember how they played TEAM first as a group to try and weather the storm until Crosby returned? It provided them a valuable, tangible reminder of TEAM ethic and cooperation. It took them to the Finals that year. Take away the shellshock first 2 games of that Finals, and the Pens scrapped to the end against vastly more experienced/talented Detroit.

After they quit on HCMT and got him fired, the effort returned. The system was only tweaked by NHCDB. The framework of FHCMT's strict defensive system/responsibilities still provided the bulk of that team's strength. They would go on to win the Cup.

Since that time, HCDB's system has overwritten that defense-first. And it's glaringly obvious ever since.

I'm not a fan OR hater of HCDB. However, I think that the Cup has allowed him far too much protection from criticism. And I tell anybody that will listen, that Cup was as much FHCMT's doing as it was HCDB's. Three straight years post Cup of colossal playoff disappointments is backing me up. Losing in the playoffs is nothing to be ashamed of. Losing in the playoffs to teams that are scrubs like Montreal and Tampa Bay, being blown off the ice by a Flyers team that was full of holes (that amazingly enough, other playoff coaches besides HCDB would exploit and annihilate), and watching the Pens absolutely come apart at the seams with NO STRUCTURE whatsoever? That is and should be unacceptable.

That was a team that lacked discipline, and HAD lacked discipline for a long time as evident in their play. Run-n-gun mentality that didn't change no matter the circumstance, lazy defensive efforts, players more in love with scoring than in stopping the other team from scoring, and a collective team effort about as soff as a baby's bottom. Ultimately, the coach is responsible for that. If we can blame FHCMT for being a d!ck, then we should also blame HCDB for being too stubborn and too nice.

Seeing as HCDB is back this year after ALL that I just said-- I don't see how it's going to change much. Which is what will make this an interesting year. Will HCDB improve his deficiencies? Or will it be more of the same?
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:47 pm

I think there are some VERY misguided comments here regarding mistakes of Penguins past. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Scuderi was a near impossible situation. The cap situation was very tough and just simply not enough space to sign him for that much money. The cap situation was much lower and the Penguins had more holes to fill.

For anyone to criticize Shero for signing Martin and ZB is just foolish. There were only two other highly coveted dmen that year: Hamuis and Volchenkov. A lot of people were crying that the Penguins didn't get Volchenkov, but if you look at NJ, they're crying that they did...especially at his price. Hamuis was 1st on Shero's list, but you have no control over where a player chooses to play. Martin was being offered MORE money and took less to come here.

Sometimes players just don't work out and that's the nature of the sporting world. The way we hope to sign established and proven players is the same as when fans say about another player, "He just didn't work out on that team, he'll work out great on ours." It's just the nature of sports.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby the wicked child on Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:22 pm

There was no way the Pens could sign Scuderi. Sucks, but it's the way it is with a cap.

Also re: Tampa, I'd hardly call that team scrubs. You could say that about the Pens minus Crosby and Malkin. Yes, it was disappointing to lose after being up 3-1, but by the same token, it's almost a miracle that they had that lead to begin with given the offensive talent disparity.

Montreal and Philly were definitely bad losses.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby DesertPenguin on Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:26 am

Idoit40fans wrote:If you're giving him excuses in 2010 and 11, why not give him some in 2012. Martin had a concussion, Crosby missed most of the year and wasn't back in form. Fleury had a bad playoff. So really if he doesn't go all the way in 2012-13, its really just one bad year. Afterall, in the last real season that was played, the Penguins won the cup.


The team was having serious issues against the Flyers before Martin's concussion, and even a half strength Crosby should have made this team better than the roster that played near the top of the league all season without him. Flower absolutely had a bad playoffs, but the team D and discipline in front of him fell to pieces. There was no composure to this team. The amount of goals they surrendered was flat out unacceptable even if there was a shooting tutor in net instead of a real goaltender. Too many odd man breaks, too many defensive breakdowns. The Pens got hit in the gut in game 1 and fell apart mentally. If that's not on the coach I don't know who else it could be on, especially for a team with so many veterans who've won a cup before.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:44 pm

DesertPenguin wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:If you're giving him excuses in 2010 and 11, why not give him some in 2012. Martin had a concussion, Crosby missed most of the year and wasn't back in form. Fleury had a bad playoff. So really if he doesn't go all the way in 2012-13, its really just one bad year. Afterall, in the last real season that was played, the Penguins won the cup.


The team was having serious issues against the Flyers before Martin's concussion, and even a half strength Crosby should have made this team better than the roster that played near the top of the league all season without him. Flower absolutely had a bad playoffs, but the team D and discipline in front of him fell to pieces. There was no composure to this team. The amount of goals they surrendered was flat out unacceptable even if there was a shooting tutor in net instead of a real goaltender. Too many odd man breaks, too many defensive breakdowns. The Pens got hit in the gut in game 1 and fell apart mentally. If that's not on the coach I don't know who else it could be on, especially for a team with so many veterans who've won a cup before.


Did that post really go that far over your head? I wanted Bylsma gone at the beginning of last season.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Nizzy on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:39 pm

I want to add another point in this thread... there was a play that Tangradi did (don't have the video sorry)

Pens vs Devils, Kovalchuk was carrying the puck out of his zone, Tangradi cuts him off, forces him into the boards with a legit check, knocks the puck loose, takes it into the zone... can't remember if it was a shot/clean pass but he had a direct assist on the play. After that he's playing top 3 minutes in my book. I've never seen little Kennedy do that to anyone.

People keep saying what has he done, well that. A nice assist/game vs Philly in the playoffs when he got more ice. His big body is what this team needs in the top 9. Almost a point per game player with top 6 minutes in the minors. Kid can skate fine if Malone/Guerin/Sykora can be in the top 9 so can Tangradi...

That's it, well there's a lockout anyways so I guess this will wait until 2013.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby columbia on Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:45 am

"I feel like I'm in the best shape of my life."


http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/spo ... hl-652257/
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Factorial on Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:07 am

Also from the above:

That reality hasn't stopped some blogs and other non-traditional media outlets from writing him off as an underachiever who never will merit more than a footnote in the organization's plans.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby offsides on Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:55 am

columbia wrote:
"I feel like I'm in the best shape of my life."


http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/spo ... hl-652257/


Maybe, but being in good shape and being able to play good hockey are two different things. That being said, I hope he can get it together this season and make a big contribution. I still think he is a bust, but I don't mind eating crow. I like mine with hot sauce.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby Penspal on Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:37 am

I had to laugh when I read that Tangradi said "... in the best shape of my life...".

All he wants is a chance, and all many of us want is to give him a legit chance. If he gets it and fails, then it is what it is. Some should probably eat crow, but at least the debate will be over.
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Re: Tangradi

Postby columbia on Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:49 am

Penspal wrote:I had to laugh when I read that Tangradi said "... in the best shape of my life...".


8-)
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