Fleury's last chance?

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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:08 pm

Bathgate wrote:The Pens organization blames Fleury for the lost to the Flyers.

http://sulia.com/channel/nhl-lockout/f/9a5caf3d-0dde-41c0-bbfc-f241e8280fd2/?source=twitter



If that is true its complete BS. I am not absolving Fleury at all but I am pretty sure the lack of defense and ability to cycle on offense had just as much to do with it. They won the cup on the strength of 6 guys who could play defense and wingers on 3 lines who could cycle. Lets not forget Crosby and Malkin did not exactly light the lamp vs. Detroit and we still won. We couldnt cycle, coudlnt stop the cycle and our PP and PK was ALL PERIMETER.

The problem is they were exposed. I have used this analogy before. 2001 - 03 Steelers. Best front 7 of a 3-4 defense I had ever seen at the time. Teams couldnt run at all and were afraid to throw. If they went shotgun the QB got creamed. But what happened? Cheat-a-Check figure if you went shotgun, and spread them out you pick apart a slow secondary with quick throws. Lead to them getting embarrassed on that side of the ball until they got Troy, Ike and Hope.

Point being - teams were afraid of the Pens. But a few teams put a blue print of attack attack attack. Even give up some chances of your own but keep attacking. Yes, Fleury was bad. but if the organization think this team minus Staal and ZM are better off if they get a better goalie they are smoking the crack pipe.

If it wasnt late a would look for a youtube clip of one of the Flyers goals in the series. Game 2 or 3. They had a 3 on 2 and ran it to perfection. The two Pens players were so out of position it was tic tac toe basic tap for an easy goal. Me and my neighbors 12 year old could have played better defense if we just skated backwards and took up space.

Sorry for the long rant. Was annoyed at the board for blaming it all on Fleury. Now the Pens themselves. Cant wait til hockey starts back up and Martin and Engellend are the 2nd PK pairing. After every goal scored I am going to scream BLAME FLEURY (in a South Park character voice).
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:14 pm

Yohe's probably just trolling for more reads. Interesting there's nothing to talk about and suddenly he says "Oh BTW the Pens said Fleury sucked".

If this were an issue then he (and others) would probably have brought it up when it was actually relevant.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:15 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Yohe's probably just trolling for more reads. Interesting there's nothing to talk about and suddenly he says "Oh BTW the Pens said Fleury sucked".

If this were an issue then he (and others) would probably have brought it up when it was actually relevant.



You are probably right, I am just so tired of the blame Fleury crowd. Its like nobody watched the games.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:30 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Yohe's probably just trolling for more reads. Interesting there's nothing to talk about and suddenly he says "Oh BTW the Pens said Fleury sucked".

If this were an issue then he (and others) would probably have brought it up when it was actually relevant.


This.

But I'd still like to see what Rick Strom can do with the first team offense...this team is going nowhere with Brister...
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Lesky on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:34 am

So is it fair to say that flower is whitering?

After 2009 you thought Fleury was in for a sweet time and it turns out its all doom and gloom!

I have a signed Fleury picture framed on the wall - is it time to destroy it with a baseball bat yet?
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby joopen on Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:13 am

You also have to consider who is posting the link. I am pretty certain that over half of his posts are Fleury rips. Just ignore and move on.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby columbia on Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:50 am

Of course the organization wasn't happy with MAF; this is not news.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby columbia on Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:56 am

BTW: Is anyone else slightly disturbed by the idea of Rossi having a protege?
So much for the future of the fourth estate.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby penny lane on Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:48 am

Lesky wrote:So is it fair to say that flower is whitering?

After 2009 you thought Fleury was in for a sweet time and it turns out its all doom and gloom!

I have a signed Fleury picture framed on the wall - is it time to destroy it with a baseball bat yet?


the nhl owners and nhlpa are doing a fabulous job of destroying hockey itself, so keep the Flower photo.

Flower, Sid, Evgeni; no penguin was ready to commit to the level of play required to beat the flyers. sometimes talent will still win out; flyers match the pens in talent + they have speed.
I thought I would see coach dan's name in J Yohe's twitter story.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby tfrizz on Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:15 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Bathgate wrote:The Pens organization blames Fleury for the lost to the Flyers.

http://sulia.com/channel/nhl-lockout/f/9a5caf3d-0dde-41c0-bbfc-f241e8280fd2/?source=twitter



If that is true its complete BS. I am not absolving Fleury at all but I am pretty sure the lack of defense and ability to cycle on offense had just as much to do with it. They won the cup on the strength of 6 guys who could play defense and wingers on 3 lines who could cycle. Lets not forget Crosby and Malkin did not exactly light the lamp vs. Detroit and we still won. We couldnt cycle, coudlnt stop the cycle and our PP and PK was ALL PERIMETER.

The problem is they were exposed. I have used this analogy before. 2001 - 03 Steelers. Best front 7 of a 3-4 defense I had ever seen at the time. Teams couldnt run at all and were afraid to throw. If they went shotgun the QB got creamed. But what happened? Cheat-a-Check figure if you went shotgun, and spread them out you pick apart a slow secondary with quick throws. Lead to them getting embarrassed on that side of the ball until they got Troy, Ike and Hope.

Point being - teams were afraid of the Pens. But a few teams put a blue print of attack attack attack. Even give up some chances of your own but keep attacking. Yes, Fleury was bad. but if the organization think this team minus Staal and ZM are better off if they get a better goalie they are smoking the crack pipe.

If it wasnt late a would look for a youtube clip of one of the Flyers goals in the series. Game 2 or 3. They had a 3 on 2 and ran it to perfection. The two Pens players were so out of position it was tic tac toe basic tap for an easy goal. Me and my neighbors 12 year old could have played better defense if we just skated backwards and took up space.

Sorry for the long rant. Was annoyed at the board for blaming it all on Fleury. Now the Pens themselves. Cant wait til hockey starts back up and Martin and Engellend are the 2nd PK pairing. After every goal scored I am going to scream BLAME FLEURY (in a South Park character voice).


Not to mentioned Bylsma expressing concern in February! that he was overplaying Fleury, causing him to wear down... only to continue having to overplay him because there wasn't another reliable goalie in the organization.

I've posted these numbers before, but here they are again.

Code: Select all
.           Reg Season        Playoffs
SEASON          GP         SV%      GAA
-------     ----------     ----    ----
2006-07         67         .880    3.76
2007-08         35         .933    1.97
2008-09         62         .908    2.61
2009-10         67         .891    2.78
2010-11         65         .899    2.52
2011-12         67         .834    4.63


Now, I think there may be something to this. It seems to suggest that Fleury simply isn't built for playing 60+ games in the regular season while still having something left in the tank for playoffs. If that is the case, then his next contract is going to have to come with a pay cut and the Pens are going to need a backup that can reliably play 25-35 games a season.

Interestingly enough, the last few Stanley Cup winning goalies are all guys who weigh in a bit heavier than most, ranging from 201lbs (Tim Thomas) to 214lbs (Jonathan Quick). These guys also seem to have


Oddly enough, the last 3 Stanley Cup winning goalies all clock in at over 200lbs - Jonthan Quick at 6'1" 214lbs, Tim Thomas at 5'10" 201lbs, and Antti Niemi at 6'2" 210lbs. Fleury, in comparison, is listed at 6'2" 180lbs.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:01 am

So, we need to sign Andrei Medvedev? :P
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Digitalgypsy66 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:25 am

So the Vokoun trade and signing may be the biggest deal since the Neal trade. :pop:
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:32 am

I think Fleury caused the lockout.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Bathgate on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:39 am

We all saw that Fleury AND the team defense were poor in the Flyer series. What is interesting about this report is it suggests Pens management leans to the theory that all the bad goals allowed by Fleury was responsible for disarray and breakdowns on team defense rather than vice versa.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:55 am

Let's just pretend for a minute that that's how it happened (ya know, Fleury caused the defensive breakdowns...), why don't we try it - just for poops and chuckles - the other way...just a hypothetical. Let's try to play some defense for the goaltender we invested $35 million in and see what the results are...just in case - in the unlikely event - that we have this backwards, let's measure twice, cut once here...
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby Lesky on Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:14 pm

Is Fleurys .834 save percentage and 4.63 goal average a Penguins record all time worst record?

And Shero now thinks we have better defense with Staal and Michalek gone? :face:
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:45 pm

Lesky wrote:Is Fleurys .834 save percentage and 4.63 goal average a Penguins record all time worst record?


I'm just kind of checking through for some other poor ones (statistically)...

1977 Dennis Herron: 1-2, 3.67 GAA, .904 save pct.
1979 Dennis Herron: 2-5, 3.42 GAA, .887 save pct.
1980 Greg Millen: 2-3, 4.20 GAA, .868 save pct. (it was .930 through game 3, games 4 and 5 were blowouts for Boston)
1981 Greg Millen: 2-3, 3.51 GAA, .888 save pct.
1982 Michel Dion: 2-3, 4.34 GAA, .879 save pct.
2007: Marc-Andre Fleury: 1-4, 3.76 GAA, .880 save pct. (even though he was probably the best or at least top-3 best players on the team in that series)
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:43 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Lesky wrote:Is Fleurys .834 save percentage and 4.63 goal average a Penguins record all time worst record?


I'm just kind of checking through for some other poor ones (statistically)...

1977 Dennis Herron: 1-2, 3.67 GAA, .904 save pct.
1979 Dennis Herron: 2-5, 3.42 GAA, .887 save pct.
1980 Greg Millen: 2-3, 4.20 GAA, .868 save pct. (it was .930 through game 3, games 4 and 5 were blowouts for Boston)
1981 Greg Millen: 2-3, 3.51 GAA, .888 save pct.
1982 Michel Dion: 2-3, 4.34 GAA, .879 save pct.
2007: Marc-Andre Fleury: 1-4, 3.76 GAA, .880 save pct. (even though he was probably the best or at least top-3 best players on the team in that series)


Thanks Mikey, those actually make Fleury's look that much worse (especially considering the era). Which, logically thinking would mean you would have to blame a lot on the team.

Anyways, although those stats are eye popping my eyes tell the entire story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaP8aqmeG7Q

Fleury's fault goal 1

Goal number 2 - was a 5 on 3

watch goal 3. Watch from the 1:03 minute mark to the 1:13 minute mark. Tell me that our defense was any good overall. That 3 on 2 was pretty much as embarrassing as you can get for professional athletetes.

Goal 4. We gave it away with no effort behind the net

Goal 5. An across the ice pass through a passive d. You can argue Fleury could have been slightly sharper, maybe, so maybe 80/20 fault on this one.

Goal 6. A two line pass basically WHILE WERE ON THE PK leading to a breakaway. Again, maybe a poke check here, but 90/10 the defense. Especially since the Flyers had been trying stretch passes all day.

Goal 7. Dupuis riding Jagr like a toy horse, then a wide open slot pass.

Goal 8. Blah, down by 3, going to go down 3-0. This was just a laugher goal.

Point is sure Fleury could have come up big, but how many times can you expect your goalie to bail you out. This wasnt about one bad goal let in by Fleury, or one absurd Lovejoy pass, this was about constant shift after shift, game after game terrible overall defensive play.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:55 pm

I won't re-analyze your analyzation (normally I would take part in such an exercise, but time is limited), but doing it like this is biased in its own right because it only highlights actual goals, the analysis makes no mention of key saves and Fleury's role in them vs. the defense's ability to lower shot quality. Not that what you're doing is wrong or has no merit (it does), but this storytelling doesn't tell enough of the story even.

Re: stats above. Yeah, I mean, it just confirms what we already knew...this was an ahistorical series...an extreme rarity on an all-time level. I mean, Claude Giroux led the playoffs in goals and only made it to game 5 of the second round...whacky.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:16 pm

mikey287 wrote:I won't re-analyze your analyzation (normally I would take part in such an exercise, but time is limited), but doing it like this is biased in its own right because it only highlights actual goals, the analysis makes no mention of key saves and Fleury's role in them vs. the defense's ability to lower shot quality. Not that what you're doing is wrong or has no merit (it does), but this storytelling doesn't tell enough of the story even.

Re: stats above. Yeah, I mean, it just confirms what we already knew...this was an ahistorical series...an extreme rarity on an all-time level. I mean, Claude Giroux led the playoffs in goals and only made it to game 5 of the second round...whacky.


I understand., but my point wasnt necessarily to analyze in an almost political fashion, but just to, for lack of a better word, make a point. I completely get what you are saying but the issue is (as with the QB in the NFL) its too easy just to pass blame (pun intended).

The bottom line is if on 85% of the goals the defense was completely shabby in a game, and there really is no argument that is wasnt, and in this game some of it was completely past reason, then at the very least we should stop with the biased Fleury bashing and blame - especially if it comes from within (which I guess from reading the posts could more be a reporters idea but it is still a point that is annoying me).

Sure, that clip only showed 7 or 8 total defensive breakdowns, but they were pee wee hockey mistakes. I think we should just put to rest this Fleury notion until next season and see what he does vs. what the defense does.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:01 pm

You're preaching to the choir. I've been a fan of Marc-Andre's since before he was called up to the podium. I'm fully comfortable with him as my franchise's goaltender.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:20 pm

mikey287 wrote:You're preaching to the choir. I've been a fan of Marc-Andre's since before he was called up to the podium. I'm fully comfortable with him as my franchise's goaltender.


Yeah, I know. My posts and responses are more directed at the overall view of the team vs. Fleury that just wont go away.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby mikey287 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:35 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
mikey287 wrote:You're preaching to the choir. I've been a fan of Marc-Andre's since before he was called up to the podium. I'm fully comfortable with him as my franchise's goaltender.


Yeah, I know. My posts and responses are more directed at the overall view of the team vs. Fleury that just wont go away.


I know the feeling.
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby FreeCandy44 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:52 am

mikey287 wrote:You're preaching to the choir. I've been a fan of Marc-Andre's since before he was called up to the podium. I'm fully comfortable with him as my franchise's goaltender.


This....
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Re: Fleury's last chance?

Postby sil on Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:35 am

I'm still more concerned/haunted by Crosby's and Malkin's unwillingness (and I use that term specifically, because they're not incapable) to backcheck during that series, than I am Fleury's awful GAA and save%.
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